Denman Island Local Trust Committee regular meeting, April 21, 2022

[0:00:01] Voice 4: Okay, so I'm going to call the meeting to order, and the camera right now is pointed

[0:00:06] Voice 4: at the presenter, so this is perfect.

[0:00:11] Voice 4: Anybody got anything they want to add to the agenda?

[0:00:14] Voice 4: It's a very straightforward agenda tonight, so we'll approve the agenda by consent?

[0:00:20] Voice 4: Yes.

[0:00:21] Voice 4: Okay, and presentation on the Farm Regulations Review Project by Upland Agricultural Consulting,

[0:00:28] Voice 4: And then there'll be time for questions and answers, and then we hope to be out of here in time to catch the last ferry.

[0:00:34] Voice 4: So lots of time.

[0:00:36] Voice 4: And so I'm going to turn it over to Ione Smith.

[0:00:39] Voice 10: Take it away.

[0:00:39] Voice 10: Thanks very much, and thanks for having me here tonight.

[0:00:43] Voice 10: I'm here to talk about the Devon Island Fire Regulations Review Project.

[0:00:49] Voice 10: As was mentioned, my name is Ione Smith.

[0:00:51] Voice 10: I'm with Upland Agricultural Consulting, and Kazan is here with me tonight.

[0:00:55] Voice 10: So Kazan's coming up from Victoria and I'm from Sechelt on the Sunshine Coast.

[0:01:00] Voice 10: We've completed over 70 projects over the last 12 years working together and we have

[0:01:06] Voice 10: done 11 of those around Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands and have some familiarity

[0:01:11] Voice 10: with Denman Island having worked on the farm plan 10 years ago.

[0:01:15] Voice 10: The funding for this project in particular has come from the Investment Agriculture Foundation

[0:01:19] Voice 10: which is a partnership between the federal government and also the province of BC.

[0:01:24] Voice 10: So that's where the funding for this review of the regulations has come from.

[0:01:29] Voice 10: I thought I would provide also a bit of a reminder of what the project's objectives are.

[0:01:34] Voice 10: So this project in particular, the review of the regulations, hopes to enhance the preserve farming activities

[0:01:40] Voice 10: by updating the OCP, or the Official Community Plan, and the Land Use By-law Regulations.

[0:01:46] Voice 10: In particular, we're talking about implementing three recommendations from the Denman Farm Plan.

[0:01:51] Voice 10: Those are recommendations number 11, number 13 and number 14. Number 11 is to

[0:01:57] Voice 10: undertake a review of farmworker housing and agritourism accommodation. Number 13

[0:02:02] Voice 10: is to implement zoning updates through the land use bylaw and number 14 is to

[0:02:06] Voice 10: amend the official community plan. So just to be clear we are not doing an

[0:02:09] Voice 10: overhaul or an update of the entire farm plan. We're really looking specifically

[0:02:13] Voice 10: at the scope of these three recommended actions from that plan and implementing

[0:02:18] Voice 10: those in particular. In terms of what the process is so far, so the project got underway

[0:02:26] Voice 10: late last year in December and it's anticipated to be wrapped up early this fall. We initially

[0:02:32] Voice 10: undertook a review of existing reports of data such as maps and other information that

[0:02:37] Voice 10: was readily available. In particular, all of the historical community meeting minutes,

[0:02:43] Voice 10: LTC meeting minutes for this where the where the preliminary work for this

[0:02:48] Voice 10: project was conducted and was discussed as a community so that we could get up

[0:02:51] Voice 10: to speed on what some of the issues and concerns were. We also went through the

[0:02:57] Voice 10: first reading of what the farm regulation review had been to date so that we were

[0:03:01] Voice 10: familiar with where things were at when the project got underway. We developed a

[0:03:06] Voice 10: questionnaire which I'm hopeful that all of you have been able to complete so

[0:03:10] Voice 10: that questionnaire has been made available online and also there's paper

[0:03:13] Voice 10: copies and there's some at the back of the room as well and I'm going to go

[0:03:17] Voice 10: through some of the preliminary results from that questionnaire in my

[0:03:20] Voice 10: presentation tonight and then next steps and I'll talk about this towards the

[0:03:25] Voice 10: end of the presentation as well we will be coming forward with some

[0:03:28] Voice 10: recommendations for the revisions to the preliminary farm review regulation

[0:03:34] Voice 10: review and additions and then the draft and final bylaw will be later this

[0:03:38] Voice 10: summer and into the fall. In terms of making sure that we are engaging with

[0:03:44] Voice 10: the community. We presented to the APC. We presented to the LTC. We've conducted several

[0:03:51] Voice 10: interviews. There was a mail-out that went out to the community. I mentioned the questionnaire.

[0:03:56] Voice 10: We've received over 100 online responses, and Councillor Bouchikian just gave me about

[0:04:01] Voice 10: 50 hard copies, so that's a great response rate. So we'll be going through those hard

[0:04:05] Voice 10: copy results as well, and then tonight's community information meeting as well. I thought I would

[0:04:12] Voice 10: start off by providing some data about agricultural land on Demet Island. You'll

[0:04:18] Voice 10: also notice that there's some FAQs or frequently asked questions that I've

[0:04:22] Voice 10: printed out and left at the back of the room as well. You're welcome to take that

[0:04:26] Voice 10: information and I'll leave some of that information into my presentation.

[0:04:31] Voice 10: Just for your information, there's just shy of 2,700 hectares of agricultural

[0:04:37] Voice 10: cultural landers who land on the island. That shakes out to about 164 parcels of land. In

[0:04:44] Voice 10: terms of those 164 parcels, 33 are bare land, meaning there's no buildings on them yet.

[0:04:49] Voice 10: And of those 33 parcels that are bare land, most of them, or 26 of the 33 are privately

[0:04:55] Voice 10: owned. The remainder are crown land or government owned. There's a total of nine crown ALR parcels

[0:05:02] Voice 10: in total on the island, and the average size of those are pretty big. So the government-owned

[0:05:08] Voice 10: or the Crown-owned ALR parcels are close to 61 hectares in size on average, whereas the

[0:05:13] Voice 10: privately-owned ALR parcels are much smaller with an average of 13.3 hectares in size.

[0:05:18] Voice 10: There are only 12 privately-owned parcels of ALR land on the island greater than 40

[0:05:24] Voice 10: hectares in size.

[0:05:26] Voice 10: There are only what?

[0:05:27] Voice 10: There are only 12 parcels of privately owned ALR land that are greater than 40 hectares.

[0:05:35] Voice 10: In terms of all parcels, there are 52 on the island with farm tax status.

[0:05:40] Voice 10: Of those 52 parcels with farm tax status, only 38 are within the ALR.

[0:05:45] Voice 10: So that's about 22% of ALR parcels have farm tax status on the island.

[0:05:51] Voice 10: and according to BC assessment there are only two properties with secondary dwellings

[0:05:57] Voice 10: and neither of which are in the ALR and that's according to BC assessment. So that's just to

[0:06:03] Voice 10: provide you with some context. I'm going to then go through some of the preliminary results from

[0:06:09] Voice 10: our questionnaire and so I have an asterisk here because these are preliminary meaning I have just

[0:06:14] Voice 10: received the hard paper copies so this is based on the online results that we've received so far

[0:06:20] Voice 10: of which, at the time that I could be standing, there were 92 responses.

[0:06:24] Voice 10: Just

[0:06:24] Voice 7: one thing, will this presentation be posted to the website?

[0:06:29] Voice 10: Oh, absolutely.

[0:06:30] Voice 10: I'm just

[0:06:30] Voice 7: saying in terms of taking the valuable information that I know to be.

[0:06:34] Voice 10: Absolutely, yeah, definitely.

[0:06:36] Voice 10: So, of the 92 results that were used to put together these preliminary results, approximately

[0:06:43] Voice 10: Approximately half were people who were living outside of the agriculture zone, about just

[0:06:49] Voice 10: over a third were within the agriculture zone and also within the ALR, about 15% were in

[0:06:56] Voice 10: the A zone but outside of the ALR, and the remainder were not entirely sure which zone

[0:07:00] Voice 10: they were living in.

[0:07:01] Voice 10: So that's also to give you some context as to where people were coming from in terms

[0:07:05] Voice 10: of their responses.

[0:07:07] Voice 10: In terms of defining agriculture, we provided four options.

[0:07:10] Voice 10: So the first one, the dark green bar, is the current definition of agriculture as per the

[0:07:17] Voice 10: Denman Island Zone or Land Use By-law, and it's quite a long one, but it essentially

[0:07:22] Voice 10: means the use of land, buildings, and structures for several activities, including growing,

[0:07:27] Voice 10: producing, and raising or keeping plants and animals, including mushrooms, primary products,

[0:07:33] Voice 10: et cetera, and mentions that the crops are prescribed by the Ministry of Agriculture,

[0:07:38] Voice 10: food and fisheries and includes aquaculture, for example. The second one,

[0:07:43] Voice 10: the dark blue version or version of defining agriculture, is from

[0:07:49] Voice 10: Maine Island and it's short and sweet and it just says, agriculture means the

[0:07:53] Voice 10: use of land for the growing, rearing, harvesting, and production of plants,

[0:07:56] Voice 10: crops, livestock, and other farm animals. And then the third one, which is the

[0:08:03] Voice 10: yellow one, so that's agriculture means the use of land, buildings, or structures.

[0:08:07] Voice 10: is very similar and it's from Hornby Island. And then the last one is another longer one

[0:08:12] Voice 10: and that's from the Comox Valley Regional District. So we were asking people what their

[0:08:16] Voice 10: preferred way of defining agriculture is. And you can see there's no real clear winner

[0:08:22] Voice 10: in this one so far. So it'll be interesting to see what the results are from the hard

[0:08:27] Voice 10: copies as well. And then we asked folks to consider the definition of horticulture. And

[0:08:38] Voice 10: The first one is the current status quo, which is in the Devon Island Land Use By-law, which

[0:08:44] Voice 10: is that horticulture is the growing of flowers, fruits, vegetables and other plants, and includes

[0:08:48] Voice 10: the sale of these products when grown by landowners on their lot.

[0:08:53] Voice 10: The other two are from Main Island, where horticulture is the use of land for rearing

[0:08:58] Voice 10: of plants.

[0:09:00] Voice 10: The third one is the yellow one, and that's actually from the Sunshine Coast, which is

[0:09:04] Voice 10: is horticulture means the cultivation of fruits, vegetables, herbs, flowers, and ornamental

[0:09:08] Voice 10: plants.

[0:09:08] Voice 10: And then the last one is preferring not to define it at all.

[0:09:12] Voice 10: So if the community prefers not to define horticulture at all, this will mean that it's

[0:09:17] Voice 10: simply allowed everywhere that agriculture is allowed, because we're not teasing it out

[0:09:22] Voice 10: necessarily.

[0:09:22] Voice 10: So you can see so far the results are fairly split between status quo and not defining

[0:09:28] Voice 10: it at all.

[0:09:30] Voice 10: And then we got into the definition of intensive agriculture.

[0:09:33] Voice 10: And just to provide a little bit of context, currently intensive agriculture is defined as the use of land, buildings, and structures by a commercial enterprise or institution for the confinement of poultry, livestock, or fur-bearing animals, or the growing of mushrooms except for forest fungi and excludes feedlots.

[0:09:51] Voice 10: And I think that this definition sometimes, the term confinement, is something that people

[0:09:56] Voice 10: get hung up upon, and all that means is simply it could be a chicken coop, it could be a

[0:10:01] Voice 10: barn for horses, it could be any sort of structure whereby animals can be confined for short

[0:10:08] Voice 10: or long periods of time.

[0:10:09] Voice 10: So the Islands Trust, just for your information, is not allowed to restrict intensive agriculture

[0:10:16] Voice 10: within the agricultural land reserve, because that's a provincial jurisdiction, but it can

[0:10:20] Voice 10: can choose to restrict or prohibit intensive agriculture outside of the ALR.

[0:10:24] Voice 10: So, for example, the Islands Trust could require that any farming occurring in residential areas

[0:10:29] Voice 10: be done in a way that is done non-intensively by putting limits on the number of livestock or poultry and parcels in those zones.

[0:10:38] Voice 10: That's done on Salt Spring Island currently, where they use an upper limit of no more than approximately 10 animal unit equivalents in residential areas.

[0:10:48] Voice 10: And that shakes out to about 8 horses, 10 cows or pigs, 30 sheep, or 250 chickens.

[0:10:54] Voice 10: So in their community, they've decided that that would be an appropriate level of livestock

[0:10:59] Voice 10: production in residential areas.

[0:11:01] Voice 10: So that's one way that communities can go about it.

[0:11:05] Voice 10: So when looking at the current definitions of intensive agriculture and asking people

[0:11:10] Voice 10: what they would prefer, again, the green is the status quo, which I read out, and so quite

[0:11:16] Voice 10: quite a lot of people would prefer to keep the status quo.

[0:11:19] Voice 10: The second one is from Salt Spring Island, which I mentioned,

[0:11:22] Voice 10: talks about specifically limiting to a certain number of animals.

[0:11:26] Voice 10: The third one is from the Comox Valley Regional District.

[0:11:29] Voice 10: That's the yellow bar there.

[0:11:31] Voice 10: And that specifically says that it would be the use of land, buildings,

[0:11:35] Voice 10: and structures for the confinement, growing, production, harvesting,

[0:11:38] Voice 10: slaughtering, processing of poultry, livestock, and furburing animals.

[0:11:42] Voice 10: So it includes slaughtering.

[0:11:43] Voice 10: And then the last one, the turquoise one, is for those who choose that they prefer not

[0:11:49] Voice 10: to define it at all.

[0:11:50] Voice 10: So if we don't define it at all, then it means that it will be also allowed outside of the

[0:11:55] Voice 10: ALR on Denman Island, for example, in zones R1 and R2.

[0:12:00] Voice 10: So that's just for context there.

[0:12:03] Voice 10: We then asked about, and I apologize, there's a lot of words on that slide, but I'll read

[0:12:08] Voice 10: it out.

[0:12:08] Voice 10: We asked about interest in introducing a new definition of residential agriculture that could potentially be used for these R1 and R2 zones that are outside of the ALR.

[0:12:20] Voice 10: This is a definition that was proposed in part by the APC, who put quite a lot of time into thinking about it.

[0:12:29] Voice 10: and it was suggested that residential agriculture could be defined as the production of crops and

[0:12:35] Voice 10: livestock that provide the dual role of being a source of household food security as well as

[0:12:41] Voice 10: income from the sale of surplus product. The use of agrochemicals is limited, sale of products

[0:12:47] Voice 10: produced is limited to the local area and farmers markets and so the question here was would you

[0:12:53] Voice 10: support using this new definition to replace the broader definition of agriculture for R1 and R2

[0:12:59] Voice 10: to in order to clarify what subset of agricultural activities would be allowed and as you can see

[0:13:04] Voice 10: it's fairly split there's the blue is no and the green is yes so there's slightly more no's than

[0:13:10] Voice 10: yes right now and no would simply be status quo because this definition doesn't currently exist

[0:13:15] Voice 10: so at this moment in time it seems like there's a slight edge over keeping the status quo and

[0:13:20] Voice 10: introducing the new residential agriculture definition. Then we delved a little deeper

[0:13:28] Voice 10: into looking at supporting the permitted use of intensive agriculture in R1 and or R2 zones.

[0:13:34] Voice 10: So looking again at that intensive agriculture outside of the ALR.

[0:13:38] Voice 10: The green answers are yes, without any additional restrictions.

[0:13:42] Voice 10: So completely on board with allowing intensive agriculture in the residential zones.

[0:13:47] Voice 10: The dark blue one is yes, but only on lots that are larger than five acres.

[0:13:52] Voice 10: yellow is yes but only to a maximum of those 10 animal unit equivalents again so looking at

[0:13:59] Voice 10: specific numbers um the turquoise one is yes but only to a maximum of five animal unit equivalents

[0:14:06] Voice 10: so even less animals and then the orange one is no so that they would not support intensive

[0:14:12] Voice 10: agriculture in r1 or r2 and that is the current case so that is status quo so at this point in

[0:14:18] Voice 10: in time, most respondents prefer the status quo where intensive agriculture would not

[0:14:22] Voice 10: be supported in R1 or R2.

[0:14:26] Voice 10: Can I?

[0:14:27] Voice 10: Yeah.

[0:14:29] Voice 1: Do you want to go back?

[0:14:30] Voice 7: You just made a comment there.

[0:14:35] Voice 1: Not that it's terribly important at this point, but your no, I do not support, is less than

[0:14:43] Voice 1: the combined of the other four categories.

[0:14:46] Voice 1: So there would actually be more people that do support it to some level.

[0:14:50] Voice 10: Yeah.

[0:14:51] Voice 10: Yeah, that's a good point. And it's going to be interesting to see, as I mentioned, we just received the handwritten copies as well.

[0:14:58] Voice 10: So it'd be definitely interesting to see how those get added to the mix as well. But that's a really good point.

[0:15:05] Voice 10: So switching gears to talking about residential uses, because that's another topic that we were tasked with looking into.

[0:15:12] Voice 10: So just for context, according to last year's census, which has been released now in terms of households,

[0:15:19] Voice 10: there were 881 dwellings on Denman Island, and that's in total, so that's both within and outside of the Agricultural Land Reserve.

[0:15:27] Voice 10: There were 167 privately owned ALR parcels on Denman Island, I think it might be 164, we're trying to get some nuance around that number,

[0:15:35] Voice 10: but give or take 165, and not all of those parcels have principled dwellings on them.

[0:15:40] Voice 10: We mentioned that there were 22 that were bare land, that were privately owned. So just for some context there.

[0:15:47] Voice 10: One of the questions in the questionnaire was which of the following statements would

[0:15:52] Voice 10: best show your level of support for limiting the total floor area or size of the principal

[0:15:57] Voice 10: residence on a property in the ELR.

[0:15:59] Voice 10: So for context, the province, the Agricultural Land Commission, allows up to 500 meters squared

[0:16:06] Voice 10: or just over 5,000 square feet for a principal residence.

[0:16:09] Voice 10: So we asked if there would be support for restricting the principal dwelling to even

[0:16:15] Voice 10: less than that.

[0:16:16] Voice 10: so local governments do have the jurisdiction to be able to do that if

[0:16:20] Voice 10: that's what the community wants and that's the green response so not as many

[0:16:24] Voice 10: not very many people supported that so to go lower than 500 square meters there

[0:16:30] Voice 10: was a fair number so the dark blue who would support restricting the floor area

[0:16:34] Voice 10: to all dwellings on the property to less than 500 so for example if you did have

[0:16:39] Voice 10: a secondary dwelling that it would need to kind of be small enough so that your

[0:16:43] Voice 10: total would be 500 but the majority so far is yellow which would not support any additional

[0:16:48] Voice 10: floor area restrictions so we'd prefer just to go with what the ALC's rules are which are to allow

[0:16:53] Voice 10: up to 500 so that's the results for that so far. And then we asked about secondary dwellings so

[0:17:01] Voice 10: just for context within the agricultural land reserve the agricultural land commission is now

[0:17:06] Voice 10: allowing secondary dwellings whether or not you have farm tax status and they are not requiring

[0:17:11] Voice 10: that those dwellings be used for family members or farm workers. Basically anyone who has

[0:17:17] Voice 10: an ALR property will now have the ability to build a secondary dwelling unless their

[0:17:22] Voice 10: local jurisdiction restricts it. So Islands Trust can be more restrictive and say either

[0:17:28] Voice 10: there can't be any secondary dwellings at all without an application or they can say

[0:17:33] Voice 10: that they must be a smaller size for example or that they require their own water and power

[0:17:40] Voice 10: But they can't be less restrictive so they couldn't allow three dwellings for example

[0:17:45] Voice 10: We don't know how many landowners with qualifying ALR parcels would choose to build a secondary dwelling

[0:17:50] Voice 10: So when people ask us how many more dwellings would now then be placed on Denman Island

[0:17:55] Voice 10: It's really hard to provide an accurate number

[0:17:57] Voice 10: The ALC rules do stipulate that the secondary dwellings have to not already exist

[0:18:03] Voice 10: So if you have a secondary dwelling, then you know, you don't qualify

[0:18:06] Voice 10: qualify, and that any new secondary dwellings have to be smaller than 90 square meters.

[0:18:11] Voice 10: So they're not...

[0:18:11] Voice 10: I'm sorry.

[0:18:12] Voice 10: Smaller than what?

[0:18:13] Voice 10: 90 square meters in size.

[0:18:16] Voice 10: If your land is greater than 40 hectares, then you're able to have a secondary dwelling

[0:18:22] Voice 10: that's up to 180 meters squared, but as I mentioned, there's only a dozen parcels on

[0:18:27] Voice 10: ALR land on Devon Island that are greater than 40 hectares in size.

[0:18:31] Voice 10: size. So the vast majority of any new secondary dwellings would be 90 square metres or less.

[0:18:39] Voice 10: So we asked to indicate level of support for secondary dwellings. The smallest number here,

[0:18:45] Voice 10: the yellow sliver, is secondary dwellings should not be allowed at all in the ALR on

[0:18:51] Voice 10: Denman Island, so that receives the lowest amount of support. The turquoise one, no sorry,

[0:18:58] Voice 10: the dark blue one, so the one with the most support, is that secondary dwellings should

[0:19:02] Voice 10: be allowed on Denman Island as per the ALC regulations with no additional restrictions.

[0:19:07] Voice 10: So just let's take what the ALC is allowing and go with that.

[0:19:11] Voice 10: Then there's a small amount, I think it's the dark green one, who suggests that secondary

[0:19:15] Voice 10: dwellings should be allowed on Denman Island, but only if a temporary use permit is issued.

[0:19:20] Voice 10: So that received a small amount of support.

[0:19:22] Voice 10: And then the turquoise one, about a third, 33%, suggested that secondary dwellings should

[0:19:27] Voice 10: be allowed, subject to certain additional conditions to be put in place.

[0:19:31] Voice 10: So the next slide will talk about those secondary, those additional conditions.

[0:19:37] Voice 10: So some of the additional conditions that people felt were important would be that lots should be over a certain size.

[0:19:42] Voice 10: So you should only be allowed to have a secondary dwelling, for instance, if you have five acres of land or more.

[0:19:48] Voice 10: Some people felt that the property should have farm tax status, so that island structure would require that.

[0:19:54] Voice 10: Some felt that the property should have adequate potable water and septic capacity, and so that's the largest response.

[0:20:01] Voice 10: that's the turquoise one there and then the one at the end which is sort of orange were other

[0:20:06] Voice 10: answers and those included that it should be only for temporary farm workers or that the property

[0:20:12] Voice 10: owner should be living on the property or that the building should be clustered to maintain the

[0:20:17] Voice 10: agricultural potential of the land or that not just water but also power should be conserved

[0:20:23] Voice 10: so other utilities as well. Okay we're getting

[0:20:28] Voice 1: through it. Okay so the

[0:20:29] Voice 10: next topic we broached

[0:20:30] Voice 10: was agritourism. So I

[0:20:32] Voice 1: just want to provide a

[0:20:33] Voice 10: bit of context as to what

[0:20:34] Voice 10: agritourism actually is because there is a specific legal definition for

[0:20:38] Voice 10: agritourism as per the Agricultural Land Commission Act and regulations. So

[0:20:42] Voice 10: agritourism activities such as harvest festivals, farm tours, farm workshops are

[0:20:48] Voice 10: allowed in the ALR if the farm has farm tax status. So that's conferred by BC

[0:20:54] Voice 10: assessment and if it's in the ALR. The Islands Trust cannot prohibit these

[0:20:58] Voice 10: activities if the land is in the ALR and it has farm tax status and if the

[0:21:03] Voice 10: activities are from a specific list as per the ALC Act and regulations. So

[0:21:09] Voice 10: that's just for context. Agritourism accommodations though can be completely

[0:21:15] Voice 10: restricted or governed or regulated by the local government. So the local

[0:21:20] Voice 10: government can't say that you can't do agritourism if those conditions are met

[0:21:24] Voice 10: but it can say whether or not you can undertake an accommodation, so sleeping

[0:21:28] Voice 10: units. So agritourism accommodations in the ALR can be regulated with some

[0:21:33] Voice 10: maximums that the province sets. So the province sets a maximum of 10 sleeping

[0:21:38] Voice 10: units and those could be campsites, so tents, they could be RVs, they could be

[0:21:43] Voice 10: cabins or cottages, beds in cabins or cottages and that's a maximum of 10. The

[0:21:48] Voice 10: Islands Trust can say we're going to allow it but only for example 3 or 5. It

[0:21:53] Voice 10: could be less than 10 but the Islands Trust can't allow more than 10. The ALC

[0:21:58] Voice 10: has no say about agritourism accommodations outside of the ALR, obviously. So agritourism

[0:22:03] Voice 10: accommodations could be allowed, for example, if a property is outside of the ALR and has

[0:22:09] Voice 10: farm tax status and would like to have agritourism accommodation, then those maximums don't

[0:22:15] Voice 10: apply unless it's regulated by the Islands Trust. Currently, there are no agritourism

[0:22:23] Voice 10: accommodations allowed on Demet Island. So this was a question to sort of test the waters

[0:22:27] Voice 10: to see if this is a new allowable use that the community would like to see.

[0:22:32] Voice 10: So the question is, would you support the allowance of agri-tourism accommodation in

[0:22:36] Voice 10: either cottages, cabins, tents or trailers, which includes RVs, in the ALR on Devon Island?

[0:22:42] Voice 10: So the dark green one, the first one, is yes, I would support up to 10 sites, trailers or

[0:22:47] Voice 10: bedrooms, so that's the ALC maxima.

[0:22:50] Voice 10: The dark blue one is, I would support a more restrictive approach, so less than 10 of those

[0:22:55] Voice 10: sites or bedrooms or cabins or cottages. The yellow one is I would not support

[0:23:01] Voice 10: agritourism accommodation at all, which would be the status quo. And the

[0:23:05] Voice 10: turquoise one is other responses. So they suggested that they would want to limit

[0:23:11] Voice 10: numbers even more, that it should be only for islanders this type of accommodation,

[0:23:15] Voice 10: that the structure should be temporary in nature, or that they should be

[0:23:19] Voice 10: considered only on a case-by-case basis. So those are some, that's some of the

[0:23:23] Voice 10: input that we've got so far. Then we asked if there were any additional local government

[0:23:29] Voice 10: restrictions that the Island Trust should require for agritourism accommodations and so some of the

[0:23:35] Voice 10: answers we received were that lots should be over a certain size to qualify so similar to that

[0:23:39] Voice 10: secondary dwelling response or that the property should have adequate potable water or septic

[0:23:44] Voice 10: capacity and servicing. The yellow one is again that temporary use permit question whether it

[0:23:50] Voice 10: should be required a lot or not. There was not much support for that. The turquoise one

[0:23:55] Voice 10: suggests no additional local government restrictions should be required. The orange one is I do

[0:24:01] Voice 10: not support any agritourism accommodation in the ALR in Devon Island. And the purple

[0:24:06] Voice 10: one was other responses. And so that included comments such as I do not want to see tourists

[0:24:11] Voice 10: at all on Devon Island. Setbacks from lot lines need to be large. There should be noise

[0:24:16] Voice 10: bylaws in place, there should be composting toilet requirements, or that we should consider

[0:24:22] Voice 10: hotel or motels being allowed in a commercial area instead of additional accommodation in

[0:24:27] Voice 10: the ALR. So those are some of the inputs we received on that. The last question about

[0:24:33] Voice 10: agritourism was around bed and breakfast. So bed and breakfast are a bit different.

[0:24:38] Voice 10: These are bedrooms within your main house, so within your principal dwelling. It's not

[0:24:42] Voice 10: off in the forest, it's not a cabin, it's not a tent site, it's a bedroom in your dwelling.

[0:24:47] Voice 10: And currently, Islands Trust allows up to three bedrooms in the principal residence.

[0:24:53] Voice 10: So we asked if there would be support for the continued ability for landowners in the ALR to have B&Bs.

[0:25:00] Voice 10: And green was yes, that people would support the status quo, which is, again, up to those three bedrooms.

[0:25:08] Voice 10: The blue would be yes, supporting up to four, so an additional bedroom, and that's allowed by the Agricultural Land Commission.

[0:25:15] Voice 10: that's the maximum allowed and then yellow is no I do not support any bed and breakfast in the ALR

[0:25:22] Voice 10: so that was the last question we asked about agritourism and accommodation

[0:25:26] Voice 10: finally we had a question about setbacks for environmental purposes so the question was do

[0:25:32] Voice 10: you support updating Denman Islands development permit area number four which is around streams

[0:25:38] Voice 10: lakes and wetlands to include requirements for fencing or other measures to keep livestock and

[0:25:43] Voice 10: poultry out of waterways and to establish riparian buffers with specific setback areas and you can

[0:25:48] Voice 10: see the results are fairly split. So 38% is so that's green saying yes, 34% are blue saying maybe

[0:25:58] Voice 10: and 28% say no. So that's where we are with the setback question so it's fairly split.

[0:26:06] Voice 3: Excuse me? Yeah. Am I correct that this is based on 100 responses but there's still

[0:26:12] Voice 3: 50 that haven't been figured into this?

[0:26:15] Voice 3: Yeah.

[0:26:15] Voice 10: So this is based on two-thirds

[0:26:17] Voice 3: of respondents.

[0:26:18] Voice 10: That's right. So this is

[0:26:18] Voice 10: the preliminary results. So these are based

[0:26:20] Voice 10: on the responses. Are we going to

[0:26:22] Voice 10: do this again?

[0:26:23] Voice 10: We're going to be sharing the results to

[0:26:24] Voice 10: the LTC when we've had a chance

[0:26:26] Voice 10: to enter the handwritten results. So

[0:26:28] Voice 10: these are the results from the surveys that were entered

[0:26:30] Voice 10: online through SurveyMonkey. And so I

[0:26:32] Voice 10: just received the hard copies today.

[0:26:34] Voice 10: So I'm going to be entering them and I'll provide

[0:26:36] Voice 10: the updated results to the community.

[0:26:38] Voice 4: And I'll just add that I believe

[0:26:40] Voice 4: the survey period is open

[0:26:42] Voice 4: until? The end of April.

[0:26:44] Voice 4: End of April. So there's still

[0:26:45] Voice 4: time for more

[0:26:46] Voice 4: responses as well.

[0:26:50] Voice 3: Does that answer your question?

[0:26:52] Voice 3: So are we going to do this community

[0:26:54] Voice 3: information meeting again? Or this is it

[0:26:56] Voice 3: and we're like

[0:26:59] Voice 3: even though we don't, we've only got

[0:27:00] Voice 10: two-thirds of the data here. Right.

[0:27:02] Voice 10: So we're in between, we're right in the middle of

[0:27:04] Voice 10: engagement. So we're providing an update. This is

[0:27:06] Voice 10: not the final. We will not be doing an

[0:27:08] Voice 10: in-person presentation, but I will be

[0:27:10] Voice 10: presenting this, you know, to the

[0:27:12] Voice 10: LTC virtually, for example, at the next

[0:27:14] Voice 10: LTC meeting when we've had a chance to bring all of this together.

[0:27:17] Voice 4: So this is

[0:27:18] Voice 4: kind of preliminary results and then once Ione's finished presenting this

[0:27:24] Voice 4: there'll be questions and answers and maps to look at and all that kind of

[0:27:28] Voice 4: thing so this is kind of a chance for everybody to ask whatever questions

[0:27:35] Voice 4: they've got in case some people haven't filled out the questionnaires yet or want

[0:27:40] Voice 4: to know more.

[0:27:42] Voice 10: And just in terms of other comments that we received they tended

[0:27:45] Voice 10: to fall into three main categories because at the end we had a general question that said do you

[0:27:50] Voice 10: have any more comments basically in general one was the continued need to focus on affordable

[0:27:55] Voice 10: housing and that came up many times in people's comments and we want to acknowledge that and we

[0:28:00] Voice 10: also want to explain that there is um because the alr is provincially a provincially regulated land

[0:28:07] Voice 10: there is not an ability to use the alr for affordable housing needs so i do want to

[0:28:11] Voice 10: acknowledge that this is a priority for many people in the community but it is out of scope

[0:28:15] Voice 10: for this particular project. There was also several comments suggesting that overall rules

[0:28:21] Voice 10: should be eliminated or simplified and then there was a few comments suggesting that farming should

[0:28:26] Voice 10: be entirely plant-based and that livestock shouldn't be included within farming and again

[0:28:32] Voice 10: that is with sort of outside the scope of this particular project because the ALR is

[0:28:38] Voice 10: provincially regulated, there is not the ability for the

[0:28:42] Voice 10: Islands Trust to impose that level of restriction within the ALR. So just to

[0:28:47] Voice 10: let you know what the next steps are and then I'll open it up for questions. As

[0:28:51] Voice 10: Sue Ellen mentioned, the questionnaire will be open until the end of April. We will then

[0:28:55] Voice 10: also be completing the agricultural mapping update. We have some maps at the

[0:28:59] Voice 10: back of the room that you're welcome to make notes on. We've been driving around

[0:29:02] Voice 10: the island today also making notes of changes that have occurred in the last

[0:29:06] Voice 10: 10 years. We will be analyzing the full set of questionnaire results, so to your

[0:29:10] Voice 10: question, we will be doing that once everything's, once everyone's been able

[0:29:14] Voice 10: to submit their responses at the end of the month. We will then be presenting

[0:29:18] Voice 10: that, that fulsome engagement result to both the APC and the LTC. We'll be

[0:29:24] Voice 10: drafting recommended changes to the farm by-law, presenting those, that draft farm

[0:29:29] Voice 10: by-law to the LTC, making final revisions based on feedback, and then presenting

[0:29:33] Voice 10: the final farm by-law to the LTC early this fall. So that's in a nutshell where we're at with the

[0:29:41] Voice 10: project and my contact I can leave up here and I've also got my card at the back of the room

[0:29:46] Voice 10: if anybody's interested feel free to email me or phone me but we're here to answer questions so

[0:29:52] Voice 10: So yeah, Jada will take a seat, but I'm happy to answer any questions.

[0:29:55] Voice 10: So

[0:29:55] Voice 4: thank you, everybody.

[0:30:00] Voice 4: who came late, I'll just introduce people again. This is Ione Smith and Caslyn Bronner.

[0:30:13] Voice 4: Thank you. And they're the consultants who are with Upland Consulting and they were part

[0:30:19] Voice 4: of the original farm plan 10 years ago. And then I want to introduce Maris McCargo. She's

[0:30:26] Voice 4: the planner, Islands Trust Planner, who's working on this file, and of course you know

[0:30:31] Voice 4: your local trustees, Laura and David, here, and Vicki Bachman is taking the minutes for

[0:30:36] Voice 4: this meeting. So we're just finished the presentation part, that's number three on our agenda today,

[0:30:43] Voice 4: and we're going into the question and answer period. Did you have anything you wanted to

[0:30:46] Voice 4: say, Marvis, at this point? No,

[0:30:50] Voice 2: I don't think so. I think we can just probably head into

[0:30:53] Voice 2: to the question and answers. Okay.

[0:30:54] Voice 4: So then I'd like to invite anybody who's got questions

[0:30:59] Voice 4: to go ahead and ask them. Oh, I wanted to mention the meeting's being recorded, so we'll

[0:31:05] Voice 4: put this all up later, and if there's something you want to return to or whatever, or suggest

[0:31:12] Voice 4: that people look at it, it'll be there. So if anybody's got questions for Ione and Kaslin,

[0:31:19] Voice 4: then please let's take them and feel free, feel welcome, all ideas and questions are welcome here.

[0:31:29] Voice 4: So, who wants to start? Go ahead. Can you say your name?

[0:31:33] Voice 4: Paul.

[0:31:34] Voice 4: Great.

[0:31:35] Voice 6: How would we come to intensive agriculture just applying to fauna and fun sheep?

[0:31:42] like what if you have

[0:31:44] a greenhouse that was

[0:31:46] Voice 6: automated for say lettuce

[0:31:49] Voice 6: production that's intensive

[0:31:50] Voice 6: agriculture or wasabi

[0:31:52] Voice 6: a lot grown in a very

[0:31:55] Voice 6: small area

[0:31:55] Voice 6: would that have restrictions

[0:31:59] Voice 6: inside and outside the agricultural

[0:32:01] Voice 6: areas? So inside the

[0:32:03] Voice 10: ALR intensive agriculture

[0:32:05] Voice 10: cannot be restricted

[0:32:07] Voice 10: so the only option for putting

[0:32:09] Voice 10: any parameters around what intensive

[0:32:11] Voice 10: agriculture might look like so either excluding certain types of agriculture

[0:32:16] Voice 10: from that kind of intensive lens can only occur outside of the ALR so most of

[0:32:22] Voice 10: the agriculturally designated land on the island is in the ALR not all of it

[0:32:25] Voice 10: most of it and so what we would be talking about there would be likely

[0:32:29] Voice 10: putting those restrictions into the residential areas so in R1 or R2 if

[0:32:34] Voice 10: agriculture is a permitted use there then you would be able to potentially

[0:32:37] Voice 10: put some of those parameters in on there.

[0:32:39] Voice 6: But then it would only apply to fauna or fungi and you could do anything with plant-based operations?

[0:32:46] Voice 10: In theory, you could include that in your definition.

[0:32:51] Voice 4: So if you have suggestions about what the definition should be around those topics,

[0:32:56] Voice 4: then by all means either fill out the questionnaire or add it or send an email or something.

[0:33:03] Voice 4: But your ideas are welcome.

[0:33:05] Voice 4: My

[0:33:05] Voice 6: next question would be like enforcement. How would the farm bylaw be enforced? If you're into mycology and you're producing a commercial fungi product in a building that isn't disturbing anyone, it's well ventilated, it's filtered, and you're producing fungi.

[0:33:31] Voice 6: and it doesn't affect any neighbours, but you are actually breaking the by-law, how is it enforced?

[0:33:42] Voice 6: Like, what are the fines going to be? What's the penalties?

[0:33:49] Voice 6: You're talking about farm by-laws, but has there been any discussion about that?

[0:33:58] Voice 6: well

[0:33:59] Voice 10: the farm bylaw already does exist so this is just providing updates to it so any concerns

[0:34:04] Voice 10: around can you know enforcement and compliance would likely already have arisen in the past i'm

[0:34:10] Voice 10: guessing with the current farm bylaw so maybe i would turn it over to island's trust because i

[0:34:14] Voice 10: don't have a history of sort of what that compliance and enforcement might be in agricultural

[0:34:18] Voice 10: areas if it's something that's related to local bylaws then yes it would go to the local government

[0:34:23] Voice 10: But if it's something more related to, against the ALR regulation, then that would go to the Land Commission, to their compliance and enforcement division.

[0:34:32] Voice 6: Because I've only heard about an Islands Trust file officer coming down on vacation rentals on properties that people aren't living on.

[0:34:44] Voice 4: I can say a couple of things, and Marla, please correct me, about enforcement.

[0:34:49] Voice 4: and mostly and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong of course I just want to be

[0:34:56] Voice 4: really brief and say that not everything is enforced because it depends on

[0:35:02] Voice 4: whether a complaint is based is made and it's only if a complaint is is received

[0:35:08] Voice 4: that anything would even be started to be enforced and I say enforced with

[0:35:16] Voice 4: quotation marks because it's compliance driven uh notices and uh you know the attempt is made

[0:35:23] Voice 4: to try and help everybody work together with what the community decides uh to do with their

[0:35:27] Voice 4: regulations to help everybody be in compliance uh so it's not like coming down on with fines

[0:35:34] Voice 4: necessarily there's a lot of steps uh and um and it depends on whether anybody complains and how

[0:35:41] Voice 4: How many people would complain?

[0:35:44] Voice 4: And I don't know very much about it because, honestly, I'm not from here.

[0:35:47] Voice 4: But perhaps if one of the local trustees or Marla says, is there anything else that I'm missing here?

[0:35:53] Voice 4: No, I think you've

[0:35:53] Voice 2: kind of got it right.

[0:35:55] Voice 2: So it would be these regulations, you know, whatever the community chooses to include in the land use bylaw.

[0:36:00] Voice 2: And then the land use bylaw is what the bylaw officer would use to make sure that your property was in compliance.

[0:36:07] Voice 2: And it's exactly, like you said, it's complaint driven.

[0:36:10] Voice 2: So if someone were to complain and then the by-law officer goes out and they see that

[0:36:16] Voice 2: you're not in compliance, then they would work with you to bring the property into compliance.

[0:36:21] Voice 2: It's all incorporated, we're incorporating this into the land use by-law.

[0:36:27] Voice 4: I'm going to take some other questions.

[0:36:29] Voice 4: So at the back, go ahead.

[0:36:30] Voice 3: Just building on that question, would it then be enforced under the by-law enforcement

[0:36:34] Voice 3: notification system?

[0:36:37] Voice 3: I believe so, if

[0:36:38] Voice 4: it's not in the ALR.

[0:36:41] Voice 4: I mean, what I heard was properties that are in the Agricultural Land Reserve, those are under provincial regulations, and the Agricultural Land Commission has their own enforcement people and their own enforcement ways.

[0:36:57] Voice 4: But if it's not in the Agricultural Land Reserve, then it would be in the zoning of Denman Island.

[0:37:05] Voice 4: And

[0:37:06] Voice 10: just to clarify that, it could be in the ALR, but the bylaw itself is not something that the province, you know, is within its jurisdiction.

[0:37:14] Voice 10: For example, the B&B's piece or the agritourism accommodation, if it's in the ALR, but if it's within the bylaws of the local jurisdiction, then it would be local compliance and enforcement.

[0:37:26] Voice 10: But if it's something like for soil fill and deposit, which typically is an ALC issue, then it would go to the province.

[0:37:33] Voice 10: or growing something,

[0:37:35] Voice 3: fungi, or both of them, as has been known to happen on Denman,

[0:37:39] Voice 3: both law enforcement officers will show up.

[0:37:43] Voice 3: Yeah,

[0:37:43] Voice 4: I guess it could be.

[0:37:45] Voice 12: Anybody else have a question? Go ahead, Harley.

[0:37:48] Voice 12: I have some observations and some questions, and I'm learning.

[0:37:54] Voice 12: It's sort of like playing Jeopardy, having to say everything is a question,

[0:37:58] Voice 12: so some of these are going to be statements.

[0:38:00] Voice 12: I would really... I don't like this process because it didn't begin with local knowledge.

[0:38:09] Voice 12: Although the foreign plan supposedly was local knowledge, I was part of the foreign plan

[0:38:14] Voice 12: and I know that we spent most of our time trying to fix errors and trying to say,

[0:38:19] Voice 12: oh no, you forgot this, you didn't do that, or whatever.

[0:38:22] Voice 12: So that even looking back there, apparently my land, I throw grain,

[0:38:26] Voice 12: My neighbor to the north has a mixed farm, and my neighbor to the south has a vineyard.

[0:38:36] Voice 12: Neither the south nor the north neighbor has a farm, or farms.

[0:38:42] Voice 12: And so there's a lot of errors in basic data, and if you're using that basic data to move forward,

[0:38:50] Voice 12: you're going to find that it simply complicates.

[0:38:53] Voice 12: I know that at first, with the consulting that went on, you used Driveway Google to decide what it was you were actually looking at on a farm.

[0:39:05] Voice 12: And that's not terribly useful.

[0:39:09] Voice 12: So I'm giving kind of a warning that local knowledge is a good place to start with, and survey is a pretty stiff way of trying to get at that.

[0:39:18] Voice 12: And so I would urge you to do, somehow or another, it's kind of hard to put it backwards,

[0:39:25] Voice 12: but we're going to end up with something that may not represent what actually happens on

[0:39:30] Voice 12: Denman Island.

[0:39:32] Voice 12: In terms of where I live, 12 acres of my land is regenerating forest.

[0:39:41] Voice 12: To put a fence at the end of that 12 acres so that my sheep that are on the very front,

[0:39:47] Voice 12: or my chickens that are in the front, don't get back there and get through is 700 feet of fencing.

[0:39:55] Voice 12: So that's a kind of thing that doesn't, it's stiff and it implies that people are actually creating a problem

[0:40:05] Voice 12: by letting the livestock walk in areas that are wetlands. So if it ain't possible to fix it or find a way to fix it,

[0:40:13] Voice 12: if it isn't ornery. So that's, you know, you've got to figure that one out, I guess, because

[0:40:18] Voice 12: we're not in that bubble heart. When I look at some of that, my first farm I did was an

[0:40:31] Voice 12: apple orchard. It was on residential land. There's 600 fruit trees. That has been a commercial

[0:40:42] Voice 12: orchard now for nearly 50 years. It doesn't fall into some of the restrictions and that's

[0:40:51] Voice 12: when you ask the population generally and you chart it, they are not aware that that

[0:40:59] Voice 12: apple orchard isn't on ALR land. So when they're answering the questions, they don't know that

[0:41:07] Voice 12: they may be restricting those folks from actually selling a product, which is what they're in

[0:41:12] Voice 12: the business to do. So there's those kinds of complications that are in there. So I don't

[0:41:19] Voice 12: know how to ask a question about that because it's going to create problems. We're going

[0:41:27] Voice 12: to end up with bylaws that may not serve the needs of this community. And I have one last

[0:41:35] Voice 12: thing, and it is a question, is is there any way to prevent people from establishing greenhouses

[0:41:42] Voice 12: responses on cement foundations. And that's happening in the British Valley, it's happening

[0:41:49] Voice 12: in the Hawaii area. It's a way to do intensive, it's a way to solve that, it's a way to limit

[0:41:59] Voice 12: it. So that's

[0:42:02] Voice 10: up to you, Maya.

[0:42:03] Voice 3: Sure,

[0:42:04] Voice 10: I'll answer that question and then I'd like to talk a little bit about the maps too

[0:42:07] Voice 10: because you mentioned some things about that. So with regards to cement foundations, if

[0:42:12] Voice 10: it's in the ALR, the local government does have the ability to restrict cement foundations

[0:42:16] Voice 10: for cannabis operations. If it's for vegetable operations in the ALR, there's currently no

[0:42:23] Voice 10: window of restriction with regard to being in the ALR for non-cannabis production. Outside

[0:42:30] Voice 10: of the ALR, certainly the local government can make those sorts of criteria as part of

[0:42:36] Voice 10: the land use by-law.

[0:42:38] Voice 12: Because it sounds like a third of the farms on Damien, and I have a tax, ALON tax on

[0:42:45] Voice 12: status. A third of the properties on Damien that actually have loan status aren't in the ARR.

[0:42:55] Voice 8: So

[0:42:56] Voice 12: that's where the balancing act happens, where you look at the real pattern that seems to occur

[0:43:02] Voice 12: with farming. You know, I've had bees. Bees don't need ARR land. And there are people on Damien

[0:43:11] Voice 12: had commissioned these.

[0:43:13] Voice 12: They didn't need it.

[0:43:15] Voice 12: So there's a variety of things that happen here that, again,

[0:43:19] Voice 12: I'm going to go back to local knowledge.

[0:43:21] Voice 12: You might say these are the kinds of ways in which people have actually

[0:43:24] Voice 12: produced a lot of food, and let's protect that.

[0:43:29] Voice 12: Let's address it as well.

[0:43:32] Voice 12: Did

[0:43:32] Voice 10: you want to mention something about the maps?

[0:43:34] Voice 10: Oh, yeah, the maps.

[0:43:35] Voice 10: So you indicated that there were probably some errors in the maps,

[0:43:38] Voice 10: and I acknowledge that.

[0:43:38] Voice 10: It's hard to do this kind of work.

[0:43:40] Voice 10: without having access to people's private property.

[0:43:43] Voice 10: We are not allowed to access private property.

[0:43:45] Voice 10: So we're doing our best based on, as you mentioned,

[0:43:48] Voice 10: working our way around the island in a vehicle,

[0:43:51] Voice 10: talking with folks, looking at the online maps.

[0:43:54] Voice 10: And we brought them here today specifically for that reason

[0:43:57] Voice 10: because we're hoping that the community can help us

[0:43:59] Voice 10: ensure that we're being as accurate as possible.

[0:44:01] Voice 10: We're also going to be working with your local trustee,

[0:44:06] Voice 10: Trustee Bouchakian, to help us interpret some of that mapping as well.

[0:44:09] Voice 10: So I really appreciate it if you would take a few minutes and just write, feel free to write on those maps to make sure that those errors are corrected.

[0:44:18] Voice 10: I

[0:44:18] Voice 12: think one of the, this is the sort of thing I've been on since 4.30, that's one of the streams of trying to get everything done.

[0:44:27] Voice 12: There doesn't seem to be any protection for water on ale or land.

[0:44:32] Voice 12: land, and that's, for me, a real... and the foreign plan, when it got to the section that

[0:44:39] Voice 12: was basically run by the Ministry of Agriculture, and that's my opinion, there was no mention

[0:44:47] Voice 12: of the water that's on it, but a lot of the land that is farmable on Denham Island has

[0:44:52] Voice 12: wetlands, it has streams, it has what the flannel calls a wet area. There's all kinds

[0:45:00] Voice 12: kinds of gradations, but they create the water that makes farming possible. If we don't

[0:45:07] Voice 12: hold the water, it's gone. So I have a concern about that and whether or not there's a way

[0:45:13] Voice 12: to protect water. I can't with looking at a bylaw that was proposed bylaw 228. I couldn't

[0:45:20] Voice 12: do a setback from Deep Swamp, which is a huge wetland water area open water, by giving a

[0:45:27] Voice 12: a portion of my land as a setback to allow more space for that wetland because I'm not

[0:45:36] Voice 12: going to be here forever to be able to keep an eye on it. And I won't be able to do that

[0:45:42] Voice 12: because there's no public good because nobody gets to walk their dog there, you know, simply.

[0:45:49] Voice 12: simply. So there's concerns about how do we protect wetlands on AOI land and what's there

[0:45:58] Voice 12: to do it? What's the legislative tools for being able to do that? And, you know, if we

[0:46:09] Voice 12: don't have broader, there's a lot of things that cease to exist on this island. And if

[0:46:13] Voice 12: we don't, because that's the other thing, is people who have AOI land can actually drain

[0:46:19] Voice 12: wetlands and we've had that happen. They can put in drainage ditches and basically

[0:46:26] Voice 12: irrigate in the summer and drain in the winter. That's a really common. And how do

[0:46:31] Voice 12: you protect water because if water isn't out, it doesn't get into the basic

[0:46:38] Voice 12: groundwater.

[0:46:39] Voice 10: It's not available. So you brought up a couple different things. One

[0:46:42] Voice 10: was setbacks. The other one was around more drainage and sort of land

[0:46:48] Voice 10: management so for the setbacks the best to answer your question directly the best jurisdictional

[0:46:53] Voice 10: tool for that actually falls within the ministry of environment through the code of practice for

[0:46:57] Voice 10: agricultural environmental management and that's a new legislative tool so it's a regulation that

[0:47:02] Voice 10: was introduced in 2019 and it supersedes or it takes place of the previous agricultural waste

[0:47:08] Voice 10: control regulation and it has specific setbacks for specific agricultural uses whether it's in

[0:47:14] Voice 10: the ALR or not. It actually doesn't matter if it's in the ALR, it's any agricultural use and there's

[0:47:18] Voice 10: specific setbacks from drinking water sources, from natural water courses, which includes wetlands

[0:47:23] Voice 10: and from property lines. And so those setbacks can be for buildings, specifically agricultural

[0:47:30] Voice 10: buildings, or it could be for livestock raising, for example. So there are specific wording in

[0:47:36] Voice 10: there through the Ministry of Environment's Agricultural Environmental Management Code of

[0:47:40] Voice 10: practice. The other issue that you mentioned, the by-law can match it, so the by-law certainly

[0:47:52] Voice 10: needs to match it because the Ministry of Environment's code of practice would supersede

[0:47:56] Voice 10: it. If the by-law was less restrictive, then it would have no force in effect. So the by-law

[0:48:01] Voice 10: could be more restrictive than that in terms of the number of meters back that those uses

[0:48:06] Voice 10: uses need to be. It can't be less

[0:48:08] Voice 10: restrictive. It can't allow those things to be

[0:48:10] Voice 10: closer. And we're talking on

[0:48:12] Voice 10: ALR? Correct. Oh,

[0:48:14] Voice 10: 100%. Correct. That's

[0:48:16] Voice 12: the code of

[0:48:16] Voice 10: practice. It's the code of practice and it's

[0:48:18] Voice 10: a regulation. So it's legal.

[0:48:20] Voice 10: It's legal. The other thing,

[0:48:22] Voice 10: I just wanted to finish one last thing because she asked about

[0:48:24] Voice 10: drainage. And so drainage

[0:48:26] Voice 10: is an agricultural use and in

[0:48:28] Voice 10: the ALR it is allowed through the Farm

[0:48:30] Voice 10: Practices Protection Act. So that is

[0:48:32] Voice 10: not something specific that the

[0:48:34] Voice 10: local government can regulate.

[0:48:39] Voice 1: Thank you. I just, okay, can I just throw this out there?

[0:48:42] Voice 4: And can you say your name too? Doug,

[0:48:44] Voice 1: Doug Wright. Thank you,

[0:48:45] Voice 1: Doug. Okay, so in that document that I only referenced there, it's a pretty general document, and it doesn't really define things very well.

[0:48:58] Voice 1: Well, like Denman, half of Denman is a wetland in the wintertime.

[0:49:05] Voice 1: And it defines drainage courses, but drainage courses are everywhere when it rains two inches in a day.

[0:49:13] Voice 1: I mean, it's terribly frustrating to look at it and go, if you're a farmer, and go,

[0:49:19] Voice 1: well, I kind of want to follow the rules, because I kind of want to follow the rules.

[0:49:23] Voice 1: I'm not perfect.

[0:49:25] Voice 1: But I look at it and go, half of my fields, or three quarters of my fields, can be defined as wetlands.

[0:49:35] Voice 1: And drainage courses, I mean I have drainage courses everywhere.

[0:49:39] Voice 1: So it's really an onerous, for a farmer, it's really an onerous document.

[0:49:45] Voice 1: And if people start to enforce it, it's going to drive farmers crazy.

[0:49:51] Voice 10: I was going to say, it does come back to that discussion around compliance and enforcement.

[0:49:55] Voice 10: Yeah,

[0:49:56] Voice 1: and okay, and like I shared the concerns about enforcement that was mentioned, because

[0:50:02] Voice 1: I just don't see how the Island Trust has the ability to do very much more enforcement

[0:50:08] Voice 1: than what it's already doing, and people have their agendas. Society is getting angrier

[0:50:16] Voice 1: by the day. People are becoming more focused on their issues and their agendas by the day.

[0:50:24] Voice 1: It used to be where you could sort of live and let live.

[0:50:30] Voice 1: But it's really not the same anymore than it was 10, 15 years ago.

[0:50:36] Voice 1: So I can see the Islands Trust getting dragged into a lot of fights if they're not careful.

[0:50:44] Voice 1: Third thing I wanted to mention that was up there, they said two houses.

[0:50:49] Voice 1: This is according to BC Assessment.

[0:50:52] Voice 1: Only two farms on the Island, on Secondary's Island.

[0:50:55] Voice 1: They

[0:50:56] Voice 2: weren't, it wasn't even farms. It was just out of the, out of the, like,

[0:50:59] Voice 1: like, their, their data has got to be so out to date. And, you know, they're supposed to be taxing us and actually almost a benefit to Islands Trust in theory, if you have a secondary drawing registered on title, because in theory, that secondary drawing is taxing.

[0:51:23] Voice 1: So, you know, there is, in theory, some benefit to the community if there are secondary blocks.

[0:51:32] Voice 1: I should, somebody else asked a question, then I have, I'll have another one later.

[0:51:36] Voice 12: I just, okay, what you just said, 22% of the AMR have with guard status. I can put that slide back up.

[0:51:43] Voice 12: Okay. Two properties have

[0:51:44] Voice 4: secondary as well. Yeah, okay.

[0:51:47] Voice 4: She's going to, I'm always going to find the slide and put it back up. There was a lot of

[0:51:51] Voice 10: info on that slide.

[0:51:53] Voice 4: According

[0:51:54] Voice 10: to BC assessment, two secondary dwellings, neither of those properties are in the ALR.

[0:52:02] Voice 11: I'm just

[0:52:03] Voice 11: asking, is that all properties on Dannemann?

[0:52:08] Voice 11: Yeah.

[0:52:10] Voice 11: There are two secondary dwellings. Oh, I know, yeah.

[0:52:13] Voice 11: Because they're probably counting it according to the most official thing.

[0:52:19] Voice 10: And that's, it's hard to get data, right? Because there's not a lot of record keeping to a certain extent around certain types of use of land, so.

[0:52:28] Voice 11: Yeah, people aren't telling the U.S. assessment about their illegal secondary blocks.

[0:52:33] Voice 13: Exactly.

[0:52:33] Voice 13: Yeah.

[0:52:36] Voice 13: Bob has a couple more questions.

[0:52:38] Voice 4: Okay, thank you. Bob, hang on, Rianne, I'll come to you.

[0:52:42] Voice 6: I don't

[0:52:42] Voice 6: know, I can wait.

[0:52:44] Voice 4: That's okay, Bob, you go ahead. Go ahead, we'll do one at a time.

[0:52:48] Voice 6: I'll make it quicker. I have two questions.

[0:52:50] Voice 6: Now, with agritourism accommodation and quite a few organic farms, organic certified farms in the Gulf Islands who rely on labor, like pool first, like pulling workers on organic farms, who trade labor for room and board, that would be considered agritourism.

[0:53:20] Voice 10: Correct.

[0:53:21] Voice 10: Because

[0:53:21] Voice 6: there's no exchange of any monetary funds, it's just this exchange of labour.

[0:53:28] Voice 10: It's not so much about the monetary funds piece, it's more that agritourism accommodation

[0:53:34] Voice 10: has to be directly tied to an agritourism activity. So

[0:53:38] Voice 10: if you're talking about dwellings

[0:53:42] Voice 10: or accommodation required for farm help, that's farm worker housing, which is a different category

[0:53:47] Voice 10: of residential use

[0:53:49] Voice 10: according

[0:53:50] Voice 6: to the ALC

[0:53:51] Voice 6: it wouldn't fall under any

[0:53:53] Voice 6: bylaw, it would just be

[0:53:55] Voice 6: acceptable to a farm

[0:53:58] Voice 6: to have accommodation for seasonal

[0:54:00] Voice 6: workers that were unpaid

[0:54:01] Voice 6: those

[0:54:02] Voice 10: need to be applications

[0:54:03] Voice 10: for NARU

[0:54:05] Voice 10: non-adhering residential uses to the

[0:54:08] Voice 10: Agricultural Land Commission

[0:54:09] Voice 10: my

[0:54:11] Voice 6: only other question would be

[0:54:15] Voice 6: what's the budget

[0:54:18] Voice 6: for this review

[0:54:20] Voice 10: That's a good

[0:54:21] Voice 6: question.

[0:54:28] Voice 4: I don't actually know the answer. Possibly we've got it here, but

[0:54:32] Voice 4: just to note that this is grant money that we received through the federal government

[0:54:37] Voice 4: and the provincial government. So I don't think it's being, outside of meetings like

[0:54:42] Voice 2: this, I don't think there's... I believe we received an $18,000 grant.

[0:54:46] Voice 2: grant.

[0:54:48] Voice 4: Okay, Rhiann,

[0:54:51] Voice 3: go ahead. Can you just, can you give me a show of hands who up there

[0:54:58] Voice 3: is a farmer? Who up there, you're a farmer?

[0:55:03] Voice 4: Not currently, I have been helping my neighbours,

[0:55:06] Voice 4: but I can talk to you about that later, it's not important. Who up

[0:55:10] Voice 3: there eats? You still

[0:55:17] Voice 3: My

[0:55:17] Voice 4: third question is why

[0:55:21] Voice 3: are we asking people who don't farm to limit farming activity?

[0:55:28] Voice 3: That seems counterintuitive when we're having food shortages and crises coming.

[0:55:36] Voice 3: Why are we asking non-farmers to limit farming?

[0:55:39] Voice 3: This is

[0:55:39] Voice 4: the local trust committee that was elected by the community through the laws

[0:55:45] Voice 4: of BC this is how we come up with the bylaws for this community through

[0:55:50] Voice 4: processes like this where we gather community input correct me if I'm wrong

[0:55:55] Voice 4: but also this is why we've got consultants here with the specialized

[0:56:00] Voice 4: expertise and why we're asking for all this input in order to help shape bylaws

[0:56:10] Voice 4: that work to preserve and protect agriculture and food production and all

[0:56:16] Voice 4: these good things for Denman Island. So that's, this is who the island elected

[0:56:23] Voice 4: and this is how we've got these consultants here through the other

[0:56:29] Voice 4: money. So it's not a matter of being able to answer your question exactly. We are

[0:56:38] Voice 4: our lay people, and this

[0:56:40] Voice 4: is how it all worked.

[0:56:41] Voice 3: I'm just misunderstanding, because you said, I'm referring to the results, which were that

[0:56:45] Voice 3: more than half the respondents of the two-thirds that you're working with, of the two-thirds

[0:56:50] Voice 3: of the data, more than half of the respondents were not farmers. Is that correct?

[0:56:55] Voice 10: Correct, yeah.

[0:56:56] Voice 10: Why

[0:56:56] Voice 3: are we asking for people who don't own

[0:57:02] Voice 10: a farm to live at farming?

[0:57:03] Voice 10: So, can I just clarify that? The question wasn't, are you a farmer?

[0:57:07] Voice 10: it says what zone do you live on so there can be farms outside of the agriculture zone

[0:57:12] Voice 10: right it's not about whether people are farmers or not so you don't we don't know who of the

[0:57:19] Voice 10: respondents are farmers that's correct and part of the reason why we need everyone's input is

[0:57:24] Voice 10: because we're talking about land uses that that abut one another right that are adjacent to one

[0:57:28] Voice 10: another so land uses within residential areas impact agricultural areas land uses in agricultural

[0:57:35] Voice 10: cultural areas, impact residential areas. So this whole concept of land use planning is to make sure

[0:57:40] Voice 10: that we can all achieve our objectives and our needs in the most harmonious way as possible.

[0:57:45] Voice 10: You talked about, you know, compliance and enforcement, so there's less pressure and less

[0:57:50] Voice 10: need and less, I guess, conflicts between neighbors, right? That's the whole idea of land use planning.

[0:57:57] Voice 10: And in terms of imposing restrictions, we have no skin in the game. We have no interest in

[0:58:02] Voice 10: necessarily imposing restrictions that the community doesn't want. The questions and

[0:58:07] Voice 10: the potential answers range from essentially having no restrictions to medium to heavy.

[0:58:13] Voice 10: So we're trying to really gauge and canvas the community to see maybe in some cases there's

[0:58:18] Voice 10: no restrictions that are even warranted or desired by the community. And that's something

[0:58:21] Voice 10: we need to know. We're really here to just get information and get a good sense of what

[0:58:26] Voice 10: the community wants.

[0:58:29] Voice 10: Thank you. More questions? Go ahead, Doug.

[0:58:32] Voice 4: Okay,

[0:58:32] Voice 1: I had this discussion already with Ione, and an island planner was there, wasn't Marlise?

[0:58:42] Voice 1: I think it was Marie.

[0:58:46] Voice 1: Currently, you know, as a farmer, if I have an issue, I can take it to the Agricultural Land Commission

[0:58:54] Voice 1: and say, I want an exemption for these reasons, and I apply through the Agricultural Land Commission.

[0:59:02] Voice 1: Commission. I applied to the Agricultural Land Commission. They will review the file

[0:59:13] Voice 1: and if it meets certain conditions, they will approve it. What I was told by the Islands

[0:59:21] Voice 1: Planner is that through this process, we will no longer be able to go to the Agricultural

[0:59:30] Voice 1: Land Commission if we want an exception unless it's written into the bylaws that

[0:59:38] Voice 1: we can so do so. So and I acknowledge that the bylaws will cover probably 99

[0:59:46] Voice 1: percent of the situations or maybe even 99.5 percent of the situation

[0:59:50] Voice 1: situations but I ask that the bylaw includes that very small percentage or

[0:59:58] Voice 1: So part of the percentage.

[1:00:00] Voice 1: that still allows an applicant to go to the agricultural land commission and say

[1:00:07] Voice 1: i want i want an exemption from this for this reason me personally i don't see any reason

[1:00:15] Voice 1: to go to them at this point in time and i'm not upset with anybody i just thought that that door

[1:00:20] Voice 1: needs to stay open that door needs to stay open for 10 15 20 years or until something changes

[1:00:29] Voice 4: I take your point. And excuse me for standing up. When you say the door needs to stand open,

[1:00:34] Voice 4: I just need to open the window a little more. And Harleen, if you could push that door open

[1:00:38] Voice 4: a little bit more. Just because the... Are you cooking? Because the CO2 monitor is going

[1:00:47] Voice 4: up over, over a level. Okay.

[1:00:51] Voice 4: Thank you. But, but, and Doug, your land is agricultural land

[1:00:55] Voice 4: reserve oh yeah okay thank you i just wanted to be clear i'd just like

[1:00:59] Voice 11: to ask the clarification

[1:01:01] Voice 11: um what kind of exemptions like is this about because i

[1:01:05] Voice 1: don't know maybe maybe i want a third

[1:01:07] Voice 1: house on my property okay and maybe i want uh farm worker housing or maybe i want to run a

[1:01:14] Voice 1: cooperative farm i mean actually we haven't really touched on this but a lot of the farms in denman

[1:01:20] Voice 1: are already cooperatively owned by two and three individuals and i see no reason why in certain

[1:01:26] Voice 1: situations maybe you shouldn't be allowed to have a third house or maybe you need farm worker housing

[1:01:32] Voice 1: like we're getting old i mean heaven forbid maybe i don't want to move on by that maybe i want

[1:01:39] Voice 1: somebody else to to move on to it so um and there's an already a number of houses a number of

[1:01:46] Voice 1: properties have three houses on them already. It's, you know, sorry, I'm just, I'm just

[1:01:52] Voice 11: I just, also this is all still for clarification. Yeah,

[1:01:56] Voice 1: and I don't know what, I don't know,

[1:01:59] Voice 1: like, I'm not, you know, I

[1:02:01] Voice 1: don't know. So

[1:02:03] Voice 11: maybe less a question for you, but just to

[1:02:05] Voice 11: help me wrap my head around this. I understand that you can apply to the ALR for these types

[1:02:12] Voice 11: of exemptions, am I right in understanding that currently, regardless of the work we're

[1:02:20] Voice 11: doing, you then also would have to apply to the trust for probably a rezoning?

[1:02:26] Voice 11: I

[1:02:27] Voice 10: can clarify that.

[1:02:28] Voice 11: Any

[1:02:28] Voice 10: application to the ALC, it's a bit confusing.

[1:02:31] Voice 10: So there's a portal, an online portal, and you would put your application together, and

[1:02:36] Voice 10: then it would immediately notify the Islands Trust that your application has come in.

[1:02:40] Voice 10: so then the application would require either a motion of support or non-support or simply that

[1:02:49] Voice 10: the island's trust is going to forward the application on to the land commission with no

[1:02:53] Voice 10: comment so the island's trust any local government essentially has a right of first refusal to that

[1:02:59] Voice 10: application but by contrast could also say we are you know forwarding this on with a motion

[1:03:05] Voice 10: of support or no comment so any application that gets to the hands of the light commission staff

[1:03:10] Voice 10: and commissioners comes with it a local government report and in that report it might have meeting

[1:03:16] Voice 10: minutes from an agricultural advisory committee meeting it would have the ltc meeting minutes it

[1:03:21] Voice 10: would have all sorts of you know information for the commissioners to be able to help make their

[1:03:26] Voice 10: decisions so they can better understand the local context but it's true that the local governments

[1:03:31] Voice 10: have a right of first refusal so if they're looking at this application and saying this

[1:03:35] Voice 10: is not what our community wants it's not in our ocp it's not in our zoning we're not willing we

[1:03:40] Voice 10: won't be willing to make a zoning amendment then it's possible that it doesn't get to the

[1:03:45] Voice 10: the alc does that make sense yes

[1:03:48] Voice 1: but that's not exactly what i was told when i got it in writing

[1:03:51] Voice 1: that you know that once this bylaw is done there is no going through to the agricultural land

[1:03:58] Voice 1: commission.

[1:03:59] Voice 4: Well, this is great input, and thank you for making that input, and I think you probably

[1:04:04] Voice 4: captured that, Vicki, and it'll be on the recording, and feel free to add more comments to

[1:04:12] Voice 4: your point about making sure that you're interested in having that ability to do that,

[1:04:19] Voice 4: right? Right.

[1:04:20] Voice 4: Okay, thank you. I can follow up with you offline about that. That's okay, I think I

[1:04:24] Voice 1: me my point.

[1:04:25] Voice 4: Okay. I'm going to go to a new question now. Is it Bert?

[1:04:31] Voice 10: I'm just curious

[1:04:32] Voice 10: about the secondary dwellings now allowed in AMR are smaller than 90 square meters?

[1:04:37] Voice 10: 90 square meters is the maximum allowable footprint for that secondary dwelling, yes.

[1:04:47] Voice 10: If I have 100 acres in AMR, how many secondary dwellings am I allowed? If your property is

[1:04:52] Voice 10: over 40 hectares, so about 100 acres, your secondary dwelling can be 180 meters squared.

[1:04:58] Voice 10: But it's one dwelling, it's just bigger. Say that again. Okay, so the footprint restrictions are

[1:05:05] Voice 10: based on how large your property is. If you're under 40 hectares, about 100 acres, 90 square

[1:05:12] Voice 10: meters maximum for your secondary dwelling. It's 101. So then if you're over 40 hectares,

[1:05:18] Voice 10: a hundred acres or so, then you can have a hundred and eighty meters square for

[1:05:23] Voice 10: your secondary dwelling. It doesn't mean you can have three extra dwellings at

[1:05:30] Voice 10: sixty meters squared each. It has to be one dwelling up to a maximum of a hundred

[1:05:34] Voice 10: and eighty meters square. Where do they

[1:05:36] Voice 10: have three dwellings in that hundred and one-eighth?

[1:05:39] Voice 10: So

[1:05:39] Voice 12: if you already have

[1:05:40] Voice 10: three dwellings then you wouldn't meet the criteria and you

[1:05:43] Voice 10: would not be allowed a fourth dwelling. But those

[1:05:46] Voice 12: dwellings have been here since before the

[1:05:48] Voice 12: I understand.

[1:05:51] Voice 10: I didn't make the rule.

[1:05:52] Voice 12: I'm just explaining the information.

[1:05:53] Voice 10: Okay, so we're not allowed any secondary funds?

[1:05:58] Voice 10: You would have to put, again, an application, a special application to the Agricultural

[1:06:02] Voice 10: Land Commission through the non-adhering residential use category.

[1:06:07] Voice 10: You said 22% AMR with farm sheds.

[1:06:13] Voice 10: She's going to put them flat.

[1:06:15] Voice 10: No, yes, no.

[1:06:17] Voice 10: That was all farms.

[1:06:18] Voice 10: The proportion of ALR parcels with farm tax status is 22%.

[1:06:23] Voice 10: 22%,

[1:06:23] Voice 2: but only two have secondary growing.

[1:06:26] Voice 2: That's two on all of Denman.

[1:06:28] Voice 2: So that's recorded through BC Assessment.

[1:06:31] Voice 10: Yeah, so 38 parcels.

[1:06:33] Voice 10: And neither are in the ALR.

[1:06:36] Voice 10: That's according to BC Assessment.

[1:06:37] Voice 10: Yeah, that's according to BC Assessment.

[1:06:39] Voice 10: According to BC Assessment.

[1:06:40] Voice 3: Clearly their data is lagging.

[1:06:45] Voice 12: Who's going to tell them?

[1:06:46] Voice 12: Go ahead, Marnie.

[1:06:47] Voice 12: I wanted a definition of confined, because when I was listening, I think that a chicken coop was not really confined chicken, but when I read the bylaw of intensive, and by the way, our bylaw also includes feedlots.

[1:07:07] Voice 12: So when you say, when we're talking about intensive agriculture, but not feedlots,

[1:07:16] Voice 12: that they're both in our biohazards, it seems that one is kind of split.

[1:07:20] Voice 12: But both confined animals.

[1:07:25] Voice 12: And the animals are not getting food outside.

[1:07:30] Voice 12: They're not grazing, they're not scratching, they're not doing anything.

[1:07:33] Voice 12: That's my understanding it can find as it's applied to intensive farming and feed lots.

[1:07:42] Voice 12: And I think we need to be clear about that, because 250 chickens in a shed in a residential

[1:07:49] Voice 12: area would be really interesting.

[1:07:53] Voice 8: And

[1:07:53] Voice 12: I don't want to live there.

[1:07:55] Voice 8: I'm just

[1:07:56] Voice 8: trying to...

[1:07:57] Voice 8: Yeah,

[1:07:57] Voice 1: that's where it has to be larger size lots.

[1:08:00] Voice 1: Like five hectares.

[1:08:03] Voice 1: So

[1:08:04] Voice 10: this document, I don't know how many of you are familiar with it, it's called the

[1:08:07] Voice 10: Guide for By-law Development in Farming Areas, and it was put together by the province, for

[1:08:12] Voice 10: better or for worse.

[1:08:13] Voice 10: But it does provide some guidelines for things like definitions, so I'm just going to, if

[1:08:18] Voice 10: you'll bear with me, I'm going to scroll down to their definitions section, and I'll see

[1:08:22] Voice 10: if they have something here around confined.

[1:08:31] Voice 10: There you go, so I'll just make this bigger so we can read it.

[1:08:35] Voice 10: it. Confined livestock area means an outdoor area other than a grazing area, seasonal feeding

[1:08:42] Voice 10: area, or temporary holding area where livestock are confined by structures or topography.

[1:08:48] Voice 10: And then the confined poultry area is similar, similar to what you defined.

[1:08:53] Voice 10: Outdoor area.

[1:08:55] Voice 10: Does that help answer your question?

[1:09:00] Voice 12: I was just trying to figure out how topography would confine on them and would lead to that

[1:09:07] Voice 12: fitting in back. So it's probably in another area.

[1:09:12] Voice 12: Yeah, it may

[1:09:13] Voice 1: not apply to them.

[1:09:14] Voice 12: But confined, yeah, it still seems like...

[1:09:20] Voice 1: Yeah, you've got to confine the chickens overnight, anyways, if the raccoons will catch them.

[1:09:25] Voice 1: So living on an island

[1:09:27] Voice 6: would all be considered confined livestock, period.

[1:09:32] Voice 6: Because it's confined by the department.

[1:09:35] Voice 10: And to

[1:09:36] Voice 8: be honest, that's why most local by-laws allow it.

[1:09:38] Voice 10: because it's, you know, often those structures are required for the health and safety of animals, so.

[1:09:44] Voice 12: But when you use the term confined, it is actually, I want to know what that looks like when people say,

[1:09:53] Voice 12: oh, Dana allows it, and is looking at it other than AOR areas, is looking at it in residential areas,

[1:10:02] Voice 12: and there are people who probably have, I have 40 chickens and I have to clean them

[1:10:08] Voice 12: all the time and they're not confined, except at night for their own protection, and 250

[1:10:15] Voice 12: chickens would reek and even, you know, it's a matter of being able to say what exactly

[1:10:23] Voice 12: are people being asked to weigh and what is our bylaw doing, considering

[1:10:30] Voice 10: that as an

[1:10:31] Voice 10: option. And that's exactly why we asked the question whether or not it's

[1:10:36] Voice 10: appropriate for intensive agriculture to be in R1 and R2 areas outside of the ALR.

[1:10:41] Voice 10: And I'm

[1:10:41] Voice 12: kind of saying without the experience it's pretty hard to know that, you know.

[1:10:50] Voice 12: Yeah, I hear you.

[1:10:52] Voice 4: Okay, Bev, I think you, did you have another question? I just would

[1:10:58] Voice 11: like you to

[1:10:58] Voice 11: to define the fencing, that the fencing was confusing a little bit to me. You talked about

[1:11:06] Voice 10: fencing? Yeah, sorry, specifically about fencing for what, for setbacks or? Exactly. Okay, so fencing

[1:11:17] Voice 10: can be, so green, so fencing can be required in a setback through a development permit area, and now

[1:11:25] Voice 10: this is, we're getting a little outside the scope of this project, which doesn't include development

[1:11:29] Voice 10: permit areas, but we ask the question at the end whether or not people would be interested

[1:11:32] Voice 10: in revisiting the development permit area for streams, wetlands, and natural areas,

[1:11:38] Voice 10: because it's possible for local governments to include something like a requirement for

[1:11:43] Voice 10: fencing to ensure that animals, livestock, do not enter streams.

[1:11:50] Voice 10: But if the farm doesn't have livestock anymore, then would we still require the fencing?

[1:11:56] Voice 10: Well those

[1:11:57] Voice 10: are the sort of details that would come to play within the development permit guidelines, so that would be specified within it, so that would

[1:12:04] Voice 10: be up for the community to decide.

[1:12:05] Voice 4: I have a

[1:12:07] Voice 10: very general question, and

[1:12:09] Voice 4: it just relates to changes that farms go through, and like sometimes a farm will house the livestock, and sometimes it won't, and then they might get it back again.

[1:12:23] Voice 4: is there a way for the regulations that we might develop to is there good practice around being

[1:12:32] Voice 4: sensitive to that or is that just something that would depend on

[1:12:37] Voice 10: the day right so you mean if a

[1:12:40] Voice 10: farm changes hands or changes activity i mean i don't think it's looked at any differently than

[1:12:46] Voice 10: if a commercial operation in a commercial zone changes hands or changes activity or an industrial

[1:12:50] Voice 10: zone. At the end of the day, we're talking about categories of permitted uses within

[1:12:54] Voice 10: a zone. And so the term for agriculture is necessarily flexible and broad enough to accommodate

[1:13:02] Voice 10: a wide variety and diversity of agricultural activities.

[1:13:07] Voice 10: Right.

[1:13:07] Voice 4: Thank you. So it's about the parcel and the permitted uses.

[1:13:12] Voice 4: Correct.

[1:13:13] Voice 4: Right. Thank you.

[1:13:14] Voice 4: Good. Go ahead, David.

[1:13:16] Voice 7: I'm just following up on your observation about development permit areas

[1:13:22] Voice 7: and the possibility of putting in regulations such as fencing to keep livestock out of streams.

[1:13:27] Voice 7: Wouldn't there already be regulation on that through the Ministry of Environment

[1:13:32] Voice 7: and Code of Practice requirements?

[1:13:35] Voice 10: So the ministry requires that there are setbacks,

[1:13:39] Voice 10: but they do not require specific structures such as fencing.

[1:13:42] Voice 10: So it's up to the landowner to determine how that setback is implemented, I would say.

[1:13:50] Voice 11: Okay, I have another question around that.

[1:13:52] Voice 11: And this is also maybe something that islanders and farmers could tell me.

[1:13:58] Voice 11: Like, is that, are there instances that we know about on Dem and where there are cows

[1:14:05] Voice 11: tramping through wetlands and that kind of thing?

[1:14:09] Voice 11: I guess I'm trying to gauge how big of a problem it is versus on the other hand how onerous it might be to ask farmers who have a lot of property and are grazing their animals there to put up huge amounts of fencing.

[1:14:25] Voice 11: I find that whole question, I feel like I don't have the information to understand how it would impact farmers, how it would protect wetlands.

[1:14:36] Voice 11: I don't

[1:14:37] Voice 10: have an answer for you on how acute that problem is.

[1:14:41] Voice 11: I would ask, I think Doug is quite an expert on that.

[1:14:46] Voice 1: It really depends on how you define a wetland. It really depends on how you define a watercourse.

[1:14:53] Voice 1: And the definitions that are out there with ministry and environment, I know you can correct me,

[1:14:59] Voice 1: The definitions are fairly harsh and fairly broad to define watercourses and wetlands.

[1:15:08] Voice 1: So it only has to have water in it two days a year.

[1:15:16] Voice 1: It's really frightening from a farming perspective.

[1:15:20] Voice 1: But if I understand correctly, you're allowed to graze through the wetland,

[1:15:25] Voice 1: but you're also responsible for taking on any mitigation

[1:15:28] Voice 1: and making sure that if your cows

[1:15:30] Voice 1: are drinking from a creek or

[1:15:32] Voice 1: a watercourse, that they do

[1:15:34] Voice 1: so in an

[1:15:36] Voice 1: environmentally

[1:15:39] Voice 1: acceptable fashion.

[1:15:41] Voice 10: Without harming it.

[1:15:42] Voice 1: We

[1:15:43] Voice 10: included the definition of

[1:15:45] Voice 10: watercourse as put forth by the Code of

[1:15:47] Voice 10: Practice for Agriculture and Environmental Management

[1:15:49] Voice 10: within the questionnaire.

[1:15:51] Voice 10: So it's there.

[1:15:53] Voice 10: Okay. Thank you.

[1:15:55] Voice 4: Alright. Any more questions

[1:15:57] Voice 4: or should we take a quick

[1:15:59] Voice 4: Quick break and then go to the maps?

[1:16:00] Voice 4: Oh, I'm

[1:16:01] Voice 13: sorry, I didn't

[1:16:01] Voice 4: see your hand.

[1:16:02] Voice 13: I just have a small question, and that is in the agritourism section,

[1:16:08] Voice 13: you talked about allowing cottages and tents, et cetera.

[1:16:14] Voice 13: And then one of the conditions was that it has adequate septic and water.

[1:16:20] Voice 13: And I was curious, I mean, surely if you're going to put cottages and tents anywhere,

[1:16:26] Voice 13: you would need adequate water and septic, like why would it be a condition that is optional?

[1:16:35] Voice 10: Okay, so we were just gauging how important those specific conditions were to people.

[1:16:40] Voice 10: So we're not suggesting that it's optional, we're just trying to get a sense of how important that is for the public to see within that criteria.

[1:16:47] Voice 10: Right now, agritourism accommodations are not allowed at all.

[1:16:50] Voice 10: So what we're saying is, if the Islands Trust decides to open the door, what are some of the things that should be considered?

[1:16:57] Voice 13: I would think that it would be critical, I'm not sure, even out of the hands of the trust.

[1:17:09] Voice 10: It would be great to have that inputted into the questionnaire if you haven't had a chance to fill out the questionnaire.

[1:17:15] Voice 10: There's copies at the back. It would be great for you to put that comment in there.

[1:17:19] Voice 10: We want to hear all the voices. Go ahead, David.

[1:17:21] Voice 7: Thank you. So I had a question following on, actually, on active tourism.

[1:17:28] Voice 7: Are there regulations under the Agricultural Land Commission Act about the frequency or

[1:17:36] Voice 7: duration of stay for agri-tourists?

[1:17:41] Voice 7: Yes.

[1:17:42] Voice 7: So it is a temporary occupancy of a temporary dwelling?

[1:17:47] Voice 7: Correct.

[1:17:48] Voice 7: And roughly what is it?

[1:17:50] Voice 10: They have maximums.

[1:17:51] Voice 10: I don't want to scare them.

[1:17:53] Voice 10: I can see the wrong numbers.

[1:17:54] Voice 10: But it's something, don't quote me, I know this is being recorded, but it's something like, it has to be temporary, it has to be seasonal.

[1:17:59] Voice 10: So it can't be available all year, and any individual tourist can't stay for longer than 30 days.

[1:18:06] Voice 10: I'm pretty sure that's correct.

[1:18:11] Voice 11: Thank you.

[1:18:11] Voice 11: Did you have something, Laura, you were going to ask?

[1:18:14] Voice 11: Yes.

[1:18:15] Voice 11: I was just trying to look it up, but I'll ask it instead.

[1:18:17] Voice 11: Instead, going back to, there was a question about for accommodation, and you suggested

[1:18:25] Voice 11: that the farmer would apply to the ALR for, I think you called it a NARU non-acronym.

[1:18:32] Voice 11: Yeah,

[1:18:33] Voice 5: it's a resident key use acronym.

[1:18:35] Voice 5: Yes.

[1:18:36] Voice 5: Yeah,

[1:18:36] Voice 11: acronyms are us here.

[1:18:38] Voice 11: But if there was a legal secondary dwelling, could it be used seasonally instead of being used for, like, long-term housing?

[1:18:57] Voice 11: Could it be used as seasonal woofer housing, or would that perhaps be up

[1:19:01] Voice 11: to how it regularly is?

[1:19:02] Voice 10: So with this new rule that the—

[1:19:04] Voice 10: My computer's going to sleep.

[1:19:06] Voice 10: so with this new rule around secondary dwellings the ALC doesn't care who's in it how long they're

[1:19:13] Voice 10: in it for and whether or not they work on the farm or whether or not they're related to you

[1:19:18] Voice 10: those used to be things that the ALC cared about there was a general recognition that compliance

[1:19:22] Voice 10: and enforcement was impossible on all of that so now they're suggesting you can have that secondary

[1:19:27] Voice 10: dwelling and do what you like with it if you also need specifically farm worker housing we will deal

[1:19:33] Voice 10: with that on a case-by-case scenario you have to basically provide evidence that you are functioning

[1:19:37] Voice 10: operationally speaking in terms of your agricultural activity at a level that warrants um

[1:19:43] Voice 10: on farm help to get more

[1:19:48] Voice 11: than one unit it

[1:19:50] Voice 10: wouldn't be considered a secondary dwelling because the

[1:19:52] Voice 10: farm worker housing would have its own set of criteria attached to it often requires a covenant

[1:19:57] Voice 10: to be signed so it's a very different specific so yeah i think i'm still

[1:20:02] Voice 10: we should be like well let

[1:20:04] Voice 10: Let me just ask one more question. The farmer could definitely have their secondary dwelling

[1:20:08] Voice 10: and decide only to use it for farmers. Okay. 100% they could do that.

[1:20:12] Voice 10: Okay. But

[1:20:13] Voice 11: they could possibly, in terms of ALR, have more housing, but then it would

[1:20:17] Voice 11: come under those different elements.

[1:20:20] Voice 10: And it looks different. I've worked on those

[1:20:22] Voice 10: cases. That housing looks different and there's specific rules, and they often have to post

[1:20:26] Voice 10: a bond, and they often have to say that if they don't require that housing, if they can't

[1:20:32] Voice 10: provide the evidence after a certain amount of time

[1:20:34] Voice 10: they have to decommission that

[1:20:35] Voice 10: farm worker housing.

[1:20:37] Voice 10: And also, that

[1:20:39] Voice 11: doesn't override local bylaws, right?

[1:20:42] Voice 11: Like, most of the bylaws didn't allow it.

[1:20:43] Voice 11: Correct. I would say

[1:20:46] Voice 10: temporary farm worker housing

[1:20:47] Voice 10: typically occurs on pretty intensive farming

[1:20:49] Voice 10: to the level that I would

[1:20:51] Voice 10: hazard a guess is not occurring

[1:20:53] Voice 10: on Devon Island. For the most

[1:20:56] Voice 10: part. I'm going to give myself an asterisk

[1:20:58] Voice 10: on that.

[1:21:00] Voice 10: Okay.

[1:21:01] Voice 4: Okay. Thank you. Doug, did you, were you going to say something?

[1:21:04] Voice 1: I'm just interested in what Ioni was saying, because I think that when you get older and you want to have extra help,

[1:21:15] then temporary or

[1:21:16] Voice 1: woofer housing, I mean, that's going to be, well, for me, it might be a nice luxury.

[1:21:24] Voice 1: So, and that's actually how my father operated, and that's how he got the number of residences he's got on the property.

[1:21:31] Voice 1: because he was getting old and he needed help right so yeah

[1:21:35] Voice 10: and home site severance is still

[1:21:38] Voice 10: a policy at the ALC too so if a farm has been operating since before the ALR came into being

[1:21:44] Voice 10: so since before 1972 without cessation without pause by the same individuals and they have a

[1:21:54] Voice 10: right to a home site severance upon retirement which is a small subdivision for their house

[1:21:58] Voice 10: They

[1:21:58] Voice 3: have a right to what?

[1:22:00] Voice 10: It's called homesite severance.

[1:22:02] Voice 10: So it's essentially acknowledging that those who've been farming since before the ALC was put into practice

[1:22:08] Voice 10: have the right to subdivide off their house from the remainder of the lot once they retire.

[1:22:14] Voice 10: Carve off.

[1:22:16] Voice 1: But usually your house is in the middle of your property.

[1:22:19] Voice 10: Right.

[1:22:19] Voice 1: So, I mean, you're not going to do like a...

[1:22:21] Voice 10: No, but I've seen requests to the ALC that come in and say, we can't carve off the house

[1:22:28] Voice 10: where it is.

[1:22:28] Voice 10: We'd like to carve off a half acre or a quarter acre at the corner and have the house there

[1:22:32] Voice 10: instead.

[1:22:32] Voice 10: I've seen those creative solutions come about.

[1:22:35] Voice 4: Okay.

[1:22:36] Voice 4: Thank you.

[1:22:38] Voice 10: I'm just going to go to Bob first, and

[1:22:39] Voice 4: we are going to have to catch that ferry.

[1:22:45] Voice 4: It's 9, 10, right?

[1:22:47] Voice 8: 9 to 5.

[1:22:48] Voice 8: Yeah.

[1:22:49] Voice 4: Yeah.

[1:22:49] Voice 4: Yeah, so we have time, and I'm still hoping that we get a chance to go back and look at the maps with you folks as well.

[1:22:56] Voice 4: Go ahead, Bob.

[1:22:57] Voice 6: I have a quick question.

[1:22:58] Voice 6: I'm sorry to throw this question at you, but say you're farming on ALR or non-ALR land,

[1:23:05] Voice 6: and you have another property, a smaller property with a house on it,

[1:23:11] Voice 6: and you chose to house your wolfers there in that house on a property that you don't live on.

[1:23:20] Voice 6: That's permitted under the bylaw trustees.

[1:23:26] Voice 10: I'm trying to follow that.

[1:23:27] Voice 10: So we're not in the ALR?

[1:23:29] Voice 6: No, it's actually, there's another bylaw that says you can't have somebody living in a house

[1:23:38] Voice 6: on a property that you don't actually have it.

[1:23:42] Voice 6: Okay, I'm

[1:23:42] Voice 12: not going to agree with that.

[1:23:43] Voice 6: So if you're housing

[1:23:43] Voice 6: workers in a house that you own on another property than the farm that you're working on.

[1:23:50] Voice 6: Yeah,

[1:23:51] Voice 2: I mean as long as it's not like a short-term rental or something.

[1:23:55] Voice 2: But if, I mean you're allowed to have anyone stay on a piece of property.

[1:24:00] Voice 2: It

[1:24:00] Voice 6: might be short-term and maybe just as you need workers for a couple weeks to pick apples or this and that.

[1:24:06] Voice 6: but it wouldn't be like for a month, it might be for just a week here and a week there.

[1:24:11] Voice 6: But it's not a vacation rental.

[1:24:13] Voice 2: I mean if it's just sort of, I guess it would be how you classify it, but if it's just a visitor,

[1:24:19] Voice 2: we can't really regulate who's coming and going from your private.

[1:24:24] Voice 4: But make sure, you know, some of these details get into the questionnaires,

[1:24:28] Voice 4: so that they can be part of the thinking. That'd be great, okay?

[1:24:33] Voice 4: Thanks.

[1:24:37] Voice 12: I have a concern with the ALC, and that was pretty much a big notch by the provincial

[1:24:46] Voice 12: government for them to say, okay, double density on ALR. Is it because housing prices are so

[1:24:54] Voice 12: high, I am concerned it becomes a real church, you can buy this piece of land, two of you

[1:25:01] Voice 12: you live on it, you've got two houses. And now we're seeing the price of AOR land go

[1:25:07] Voice 12: up, because you've now got two. It means housing for cheap people, but it means that

[1:25:14] Voice 12: that land is unlikely to become farmland in any way. But it's going to cost more than

[1:25:21] Voice 12: someone who does want a farm can ever afford. I mean, the better it is, it's going to get

[1:25:26] Voice 12: it worse.

[1:25:27] Voice 4: Can I ask you, if I was going to ask a question about that, might it be, could

[1:25:35] Voice 4: the Denman Local Trust Committee pass any bylaw that would affect that on ALR land?

[1:25:44] Voice 10: I don't think, it doesn't sound like we could. Yes, no, that's the whole point, is that local

[1:25:47] Voice 10: government can restrict secondary dwellings on farmland.

[1:25:50] Voice 11: Okay. But we can't, like, I guess,

[1:25:53] Voice 11: I think what I'm thinking, because I think about that question, can we do it in such

[1:26:02] Voice 11: a way that it serves the purpose of providing some housing and also helping a farmer either

[1:26:11] Voice 11: by having help or having a bit of extra income, but doesn't become, well, I know the answer

[1:26:19] Voice 11: years ago. It doesn't become part of

[1:26:21] Voice 11: just making that property more

[1:26:23] Voice 11: attractive for a retiree and

[1:26:25] Voice 11: driving up the property values and actually

[1:26:27] Voice 11: moving it away from farming and

[1:26:29] Voice 11: away from rental housing

[1:26:30] Voice 11: because it's like, oh, a house

[1:26:33] Voice 11: and a guest cottage.

[1:26:35] Voice 11: You know, I can sell it for more

[1:26:37] Voice 11: and then I can sell, you know, all of that.

[1:26:40] Voice 11: I know people's gentrification

[1:26:41] Voice 11: is inflammatory, but that's what we're

[1:26:43] Voice 11: talking about here.

[1:26:44] Voice 4: Yeah, if you want to

[1:26:45] Voice 4: keep farmland in

[1:26:47] Voice 4: farming,

[1:26:49] Voice 4: then

[1:26:50] Voice 4: what tools do we have?

[1:26:52] Voice 9: Yeah. I'm

[1:26:55] Voice 11: here to be

[1:26:55] Voice 11: neutral, but I hear what you're saying.

[1:26:57] Voice 11: Yeah. And

[1:26:58] Voice 9: if there is a tool

[1:26:59] Voice 11: that anyone can come up with a tool,

[1:27:01] Voice 11: we'd love to hear about it.

[1:27:03] Voice 11: Okay. Rianne.

[1:27:05] Voice 3: Yeah, I've got one.

[1:27:07] Voice 3: Limit the size of the principal

[1:27:09] Voice 3: dwelling.

[1:27:12] Voice 4: Great, and I hope

[1:27:13] Voice 4: you put that into the system

[1:27:15] Voice 4: through a questionnaire or something like that.

[1:27:17] Voice 4: Can

[1:27:17] Voice 10: I just clarify that? So the principal

[1:27:19] Voice 10: principal dwellings, any new principal dwellings are now limited to 500 meters squared.

[1:27:24] Voice 10: But you can be more restrictive, the local government can be more restrictive.

[1:27:29] Voice 10: Okay, thank

[1:27:30] Voice 4: you. And that's the new rules, those 2019?

[1:27:34] Voice 10: The 500 square meter rule I think came in, I can't remember.

[1:27:38] Voice 9: December

[1:27:39] Voice 10: 31st,

[1:27:40] Voice 3: that's the new rule.

[1:27:41] Voice 10: The secondary dwelling is for December 31st.

[1:27:43] Voice 3: I didn't say limit the secondary dwelling because 90 square meters is already pretty small.

[1:27:50] Voice 3: I heard

[1:27:50] Voice 4: your principle. Yes. Okay, thank you. Any more questions out here? Oh, David, go ahead.

[1:27:57] Voice 4: So

[1:27:57] Voice 7: just following up on this, I gather that it would be open to the Local Trust Committee to actually put various restrictions on the secondary dwelling that would be permitted on ALR land.

[1:28:12] Voice 7: And I would suppose that it might include a requirement that those dwellings be affordable, however we might choose to define them. Is that so?

[1:28:25] Voice 10: I don't know the depth of the Local Government Act, but I believe that that would be a possibility.

[1:28:32] Voice 10: I don't know how specifically that mechanism could be employed, but maybe Marlis might have some ideas.

[1:28:37] Voice 10: Yeah, I'm not sure.

[1:28:40] Voice 7: Because I mean, we can rezone on the condition that it be for affordable housing and we've

[1:28:47] Voice 7: done that with...

[1:28:48] Voice 10: So you mean the secondary

[1:28:49] Voice 10: dwelling itself must be affordable?

[1:28:51] Voice 10: Correct.

[1:28:52] Voice 7: But

[1:28:52] Voice 10: you can't sell the secondary dwelling independently of the property?

[1:28:56] Voice 2: Do you mean rental?

[1:28:57] Voice 2: Like it would have to be rented?

[1:28:58] Voice 7: Yeah.

[1:28:59] Voice 7: Oh, okay.

[1:28:59] Voice 7: Or put some restrictions on it that would address the affordability issue specifically.

[1:29:05] Voice 7: Right, right, right.

[1:29:06] Voice 7: Yeah.

[1:29:06] Voice 7: So you would...

[1:29:07] Voice 7: And

[1:29:07] Voice 10: have to think about that.

[1:29:08] Voice 7: Yeah.

[1:29:08] Voice 7: We don't know the uptake, no doubt, because there's various costs that are involved.

[1:29:13] Voice 7: I don't know.

[1:29:13] Voice 7: It gets great complexity, but that's...

[1:29:16] Voice 4: You could make it rental-only.

[1:29:18] Voice 7: Yeah, that would be one.

[1:29:19] Voice 7: Rental-only.

[1:29:20] Voice 7: Yeah, also we're going to limit the size for this corner,

[1:29:24] Voice 13: but then that would be less expensive.

[1:29:27] Voice 4: Yeah, yeah, got that.

[1:29:30] Voice 3: Smaller than 90 meters would not work for a family.

[1:29:33] Voice 4: Right.

[1:29:33] Voice 3: Limiting it to rental only would not help farmers who need worker help.

[1:29:41] Voice 7: Work could be either or.

[1:29:43] Voice 7: Well,

[1:29:44] Voice 3: worth exploring.

[1:29:46] Voice 3: Twenty years ago, we discussed having housing agreements as a way to keep secondary dwellings affordable.

[1:29:55] Voice 3: I would, as much as I hate to admit it, I would suggest that we missed that.

[1:30:00] Voice 3: the affordability vote that sailed 20 years ago, and now we need the availability vote

[1:30:08] Voice 3: for housing. We need available housing, not affordable housing. I mean, obviously we need

[1:30:13] Voice 3: affordable, but I don't think we can ensure that with real estate where it is right now,

[1:30:18] Voice 3: not realistically.

[1:30:20] Voice 10: And these comments sum it up well. We heard a lot about housing affordability

[1:30:24] Voice 10: within the questionnaire. This is clearly like a priority topic for the community, and

[1:30:28] Voice 10: And it's hard to wrestle affordable housing with ALR, the priority use of which is agriculture, not housing.

[1:30:34] Voice 10: So these are some of the really big issues that I think we continue to grapple with.

[1:30:38] Voice 10: Right. So with that, thinking

[1:30:40] Voice 4: about the purpose of this, which is farming regulations review project,

[1:30:49] Voice 4: I'm wondering if we want to go back and take a look at those maps, or how

[1:30:54] Voice 10: would you like to do this part?

[1:30:56] Voice 10: Yeah, that's great.

[1:30:57] Voice 10: Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

[1:30:57] Voice 4: Okay, so let's, uh, everybody stand up and, uh, head back to the maps and see what we want to add or change on, uh, on those.

[1:31:26] Voice 12: I'm not going to do maps.

[1:31:28] Voice 12: Not going to do maps?

[1:31:29] Voice 12: Not tonight?

[1:31:30] Voice 8: After 4.30 this morning?

[1:31:32] Voice 12: Well, my animals still need to...

[1:31:35] Voice 12: Yeah.

[1:31:35] Voice 12: They need chores.

[1:31:36] Voice 8: Well,

[1:31:37] Voice 12: I tell them that this is

[1:31:38] Voice 8: their bedtime story, so we'll see what they'll do.

[1:31:42] Voice 8: Well, thank you very much.

[1:31:45] Voice 8: I had a particularly good sleep.

[1:31:46] Voice 8: Thank you.

[1:31:49] Voice 8: We're going to go to the park.

[1:31:51] Voice 8: I'm gathered.

[1:31:52] Voice 8: So, why don't we give these kids a chance to do the math.

[1:32:07] Voice 8: That's going to be hard for me to cancel.

[1:32:09] Voice 8: Yeah.

[1:32:12] Voice 10: I'm wondering if I can take them with me.

[1:32:14] Voice 10: We'll take them with us.

[1:32:15] Voice 10: Yeah.

[1:32:21] I don't want to encourage you to look into the very last minute, but the fairies never

[1:32:25] Voice 11: I know, I'm just nervous.

[1:32:26] Voice 8: I understand.

[1:32:29] Voice 8: That's a good thing.

[1:32:34] Voice 8: Oh

[1:32:34] Voice 9: yeah, I'm not going to read it.

[1:32:40] Voice 9: Thank you.

[1:32:41] Voice 10: Oh, thanks so much for coming, Bev.

[1:32:43] Voice 10: Please take my

[1:32:44] Voice 10: card, because if you do want

[1:32:45] Voice 10: to talk to me, I'd

[1:32:46] Voice 9: love to talk to you.

[1:32:47] Voice 9: Okay.

[1:33:00] Voice 11: So were they not, or maybe they knew people they were interviewing?

[1:33:05] Voice 11: Yeah.

[1:33:07] Voice 11: Well, I think initially, it was because they

[1:33:14] Voice 13: were like ATVs, so from what I understand, it was kind of a meeting invite that was put out to ATVs

[1:33:22] Voice 12: and...

[1:33:23] Voice 12: That's right, that's what I remember.

[1:33:25] Voice 4: It's

[1:33:25] Voice 12: just worth mentioning because

[1:33:26] Voice 11: they are cool.

[1:33:27] Voice 11: Yes, they are cool.

[1:33:39] Thank you.

[1:33:59] Voice 9: Yeah, we jump on them.

[1:34:01] Voice 9: Yeah.

[1:34:02] Voice 9: They're smart.

[1:34:03] Voice 9: They're smart.

[1:34:04] Voice 9: No, that was a good conversation.

[1:34:06] Voice 9: They're talkers.

[1:34:07] Voice 9: Yeah.

[1:34:07] Voice 9: No, she's so good.

[1:34:08] Voice 9: Yeah, thanks.

[1:34:09] Voice 9: That's so weird.

[1:34:10] Voice 9: Can I take others' names?

[1:34:11] Voice 9: Either .

[1:34:15] Voice 11: Yeah,

[1:34:16] Voice 9: I hear you.

[1:34:17] Voice 11: I hear you, too.

[1:34:18] Voice 11: So, I mean, .

[1:34:20] Voice 11: Nice grab.

[1:34:21] Voice 11: Always nice.

[1:34:23] Voice 9: Yeah.

[1:34:25] Voice 9: I'm a really good girl.

[1:34:26] Voice 9: Welcome to all of you.

[1:34:27] Voice 9: I'm happy to let you in on my job.

[1:34:29] Voice 9: Yeah.

[1:34:29] Voice 9: I don't want to end on that note.

[1:34:31] Voice 9: It's

[1:34:31] Voice 5: so much easier to be seasoned.

[1:34:33] Voice 9: I know.

[1:34:35] Voice 9: Thank you.

[1:34:37] Voice 9: Thank you.

[1:34:38] Voice 11: Congratulations.

[1:34:39] Voice 11: I learned a lot.

[1:34:41] Voice 11: It's amazing.

[1:34:44] It's so much easier.

[1:34:46] I know.

[1:34:48] Voice 5: I know.

[1:34:50] Voice 5: I know.

[1:34:50] Voice 5: I know.

[1:34:53] It's just that

[1:34:54] Voice 7: it's been kind of recent.

[1:34:55] Voice 7: Yeah.

[1:34:56] Voice 7: I don't even know what happened.

[1:34:57] Voice 7: Oh, yeah.

[1:34:57] Voice 7: I know.

[1:34:58] Voice 7: It happened.

[1:35:05] Voice 7: No,

[1:35:12] Voice 9: that was good.

[1:35:12] Voice 9: We tried to ask sort of where people live,

[1:35:15] Voice 13: like what time.

[1:35:16] Voice 13: Yeah, your first night was like 30 years ago.

[1:35:18] Voice 13: Yeah.

[1:35:21] Voice 10: I just want you kids to think that if they weren't far

[1:35:25] Voice 10: away, they wouldn't want to come to answer it.

[1:35:27] Voice 7: We don't

[1:35:27] Voice 7: have any .

[1:35:28] Voice 7: Clearly, we were trying to judge the .

[1:35:32] .

[1:35:33] .

[1:35:35] .

[1:35:36] .

[1:35:36] .

[1:35:37] It's not just a section, it doesn't matter if you say, well, you know, the water, I think that's our goal with that.

[1:35:44] That didn't last very long, because

[1:35:46] Voice 6: they got nothing to refer to.

[1:35:49] Voice 9: For sure. But that makes

[1:35:50] Voice 9: sense. Some of the questions are about R1 and R2.

[1:35:53] Voice 7: And some of the

[1:35:54] Voice 9: questions are about setbacks, generally, or...

[1:35:56] Voice 9: Then

[1:35:57] Voice 7: what I'm noticing is that...

[1:35:59] Voice 7: Oh, she's gone.

[1:36:01] Voice 7: Oh, she shields her.

[1:36:04] And the other, too.

[1:36:05] She's partially from some respect.

[1:36:08] Oh, well, you can try to get on the pit bulls

[1:36:10] Voice 7: and keep them going.

[1:36:11] Voice 7: So I'm wondering if that's becoming a dichotomy of,

[1:36:15] Voice 7: you know, hard folks sitting in a row or something.

[1:36:17] Voice 9: Yeah.

[1:36:18] Voice 7: I think

[1:36:19] Voice 9: that's always a dichotomy in every community

[1:36:21] Voice 9: that I've ever worked in.

[1:36:22] Voice 9: I think that tension is there.

[1:36:24] Voice 7: You know, I'm looking at that.

[1:36:25] Voice 7: That's what I'm wondering.

[1:36:30] Voice 7: So it might work well going back to Michigan

[1:36:33] Voice 10: with some of these results, right?

[1:36:35] Voice 10: Yeah.

[1:36:36] Voice 10: Asking them for their interpretations.

[1:36:43] Well,

[1:36:43] Voice 11: no, because that question about why are we asking for the community to drop a

[1:36:48] mask and that is because we don't just talk to, you

[1:36:51] Voice 4: know, the patient rental or what we

[1:36:56] Voice 9: Can

[1:36:56] Voice 4: I just suggest, I still got this computer running, I have to adjourn the meeting, but

[1:37:02] Voice 4: I think I'm going to adjourn the meeting and then invite, we should probably have some

[1:37:06] Voice 4: of us down there at the back as well.

[1:37:09] Voice 11: So,

[1:37:10] Voice 4: this meeting is adjourned.

[1:37:12] Voice 4: Thanks, everybody.

[1:37:13] Voice 4: Yeah,

[1:37:13] Voice 11: I think that would help with that.

[1:37:15] Voice 11: The rest of the meeting, we will...

[1:37:16] Yeah, it helps.

[1:37:18] Yes, that's right.

[1:37:20] I'm eight.

[1:37:21] Well, thank you.

[1:37:22] I'm here to tell you something.

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 1 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
April 21, 2022 
 
Denman Island Local Trust Committee 
Minutes of Special Meeting 
 
Date: 
Location: 
April 21, 2022 
Denman Activity Centre 
1111 Northwest Rd, Denman Island, BC 
 
Members Present: Sue Ellen Fast, Chair 
 David Critchley, Local Trustee 
 Laura Busheikin, Local Trustee 
  
Staff Present: Marlis McCargar, Island Planner 
 Vicky Bockman, Recorder 
  
Others Present: Ione Smith, Consultant  
 Kazlyn Bonner, Consultant  
 Approximately  seven (7) members of the public 
1. CALL TO ORDER 
“Please note, the order of agenda items may be modified during the meeting. Times are provided 
for convenience only and are subject to change.” 
Chair Fast called the meeting to order at 6:35 pm.  She welcomed the public and acknowledged 
that the meeting was being held in territory of the K'ómoks and other Coast Salish First Nations. 
She introduced Trustees, staff, recorder and consultants from Upland Agricultural Consulting; 
and advised that this meeting is being recorded for upload to the Islands Trust website after the 
meeting. 
She advised that this Special Local Trust Committee (LTC) meeting was being held to conduct a 
presentation and facilitated question and answer session where members of the public will hear 
information and can ask questions about the Denman Island Farming Regulations Review 
project. 
2. APPROVAL OF AGENDA 
By general consent the agenda was approved as presented. 
3. PRESENTATION ON FARM REGULATIONS REVIEW PROJECT BY UPLAND AGRICULTURAL 
CONSULTING 
Ione Smith, consultant and project manager, began the presentation with background 
information, noting that this project was funded in part by Agriculture and Agri-Food 
Canada and the Government of British Columbia through programs delivered by the Investment 
Agriculture Foundation of B.C..  She confirmed that this presentation will be posted online for 
public viewing. 
She advised that the purpose of this project is to implement actions under recommendations 
11, 13, 14 of the Denman Island Farm Plan:  

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Denman Island  ADOPTED 2 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
April 21, 2022 
 Undertake a review of farm worker housing and agri-tourism accommodation; 
 Implement zoning updates through the Land Use Bylaw (LUB), and  
 Amend the Official Community Plan (OCP).  
 
She outlined the work undertaken to advance the project includes review of data, maps, reports 
and policy with extensive interviews to gather informed feedback to develop the questionnaire 
for community input.   
She explained that the purpose of this meeting is to present preliminary results from online 
submissions of the questionnaire and to provide an opportunity for a question and answer 
session. She reported that questionnaire submissions are still being received and that the 
engagement results will be analyzed and presented to both the Local Trust Committee (LTC) and 
the Advisory Planning Commission to inform next steps. 
She presented information on parcels on Denman Island as well as the number of properties 
with secondary dwellings according to BC Assessment; and summarized the results received to 
date of the questionnaire topic areas: 
 Definitions of agriculture, horticulture and intensive agriculture 
 Housing in the ALR 
 Agri-tourism and associated tourist accommodation 
 Setbacks for agricultural buildings and practices from waterbodies. 
4. QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION 
Members of the public were invited to raise questions with answers provided by the consultant, 
planner or Trustees. 
 Would there be restrictions to intensive agricultural greenhouse production for growing 
lettuce, for example, on a small lot either inside or outside of the ALR? 
o Inside of the ALR intensive agriculture cannot be restricted; exclusions can only occur 
outside of the ALR. The questionnaire provides an opportunity to suggest types of 
agriculture permitted in different zones. 
 How would the Farm Regulations be enforced? Would it be through the Bylaw Enforcement 
Notification (BEN) system? 
o Bylaw enforcement of the regulations in the LUB is complaint driven and the approach is 
to work with the property owner to gain compliance. Bylaw enforcement on non-ALR 
properties would likely be addressed through the BEN system. Properties in the ALR may 
be subject to the bylaws of local jurisdiction, or could be subject to provincial 
enforcement procedures. 
 Will these regulations serve the needs of the community? The Farm Plan did not originate 
with local knowledge, and there are errors in basic data and mapping. Fencing to keep 
animals out of wetlands on large acreage can be onerous - much of Denman Island is 
wetland; the BC Ministry of Environment definition of watercourse does not define it well 
for this island. Some property owners not on ALR land may not understand they may not be 
able to sell commercially as they are doing now. Also, is there any way to prevent or limit 
people from establishing greenhouses on cement foundations? 
o Concern with mapping is acknowledged due to limited access to private property and it 
is hoped that the community can help to make sure the maps are as accurate as 
possible. If in the ALR, cement foundation restrictions can only apply to cannabis 

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Denman Island  ADOPTED 3 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
April 21, 2022 
production, otherwise are not restricted. In non-ALR land, local government can make 
restrictions. 
 Is there a way to protect water through these regulations? What tools might be available to 
address the draining of wetlands in the ALR? 
o Setbacks are the best jurisdictional tool and most setbacks for the protection of water 
on farmland are set by the BC Ministry of Environment through the Agricultural 
Environmental Management Code of Practice. Local regulations cannot be less 
restrictive than those guidelines. Drainage is an agricultural use and is allowed in the 
ALR; the LTC cannot regulate that activity.  
 Would housing for Worldwide Opportunities on Organic Farms (WWOF) farm help be 
considered agri-tourism accommodations? 
o Agri-tourism accommodation has to be directly connected to agri-tourism activity. Farm 
worker housing is a different category. 
 What is the budget for this Farm Regulations Review project? 
o A grant for $18,000 has been received for this project. 
 Why are non-farmers being tasked with limiting farm activity? 
o This LTC was elected to process and create land use bylaws for the community; 
specialized consultants and engagement with community are helping to shape the 
bylaws. The questionnaire has asked participants “in which zone do you live” rather 
than “are you a farmer”.  
 Will farmers continue to be able to apply to ALC for exemption from a regulation? Currently 
a farmer can apply to the ALC for an exemption to resolve a problem and the LTC was 
requested to ensure that this ability continues. The speaker understood from a discussion 
with a Planner that this will no longer be possible unless the bylaws include a provision that 
allows an application to the ALC for exemptions. 
o The ALC would notify the LTC of any application and would require that the LTC provide 
a motion of support, non-support or no comment to the ALC to inform their decision. 
 How many secondary dwellings would be allowed on a property in the ALR with 101 acres? 
o If the property is over 40 hectares then one secondary dwelling of no more than 180 m
2 
would be permitted. An application for a non-adhering residential use would need to be 
submitted to the ALC for an additional dwelling. 
 What does “confined” mean specifically as it relates to intensive farming and feedlots?  A 
definition should be created that clarifies that it is not feeding animals in a confined manner 
that constitutes intensive farming because, for example, 250 chickens scratching outside 
might be inappropriate for small lots where intensive agriculture is not currently permitted. 
o The Guide for Bylaw Development in Farming Areas, created by the province, provides 
definitions:  “Confined Livestock Area means an outdoor area, other than a grazing area, 
seasonal feeding area or temporary holding area, where livestock are confined by 
structures or topography” and “Confined Poultry Area means an outdoor area, other 
than a grazing area or seasonal feeding area, where poultry are confined by structures 
or topography”.  The questionnaire includes a question asking “would you support the 
permitted use of intensive agriculture in R1 and/or R2 zones on Denman Island on land 
that is outside of the ALR” in order to gauge if the community would consider that 
appropriate. 
 What is the definition of “fencing” as it relates to setbacks? 
o Fencing can be required for Development Permit Area (DPA) #4 (Streams, Lakes, and 
Wetlands) however, this is out of scope for this project. The questionnaire included a 

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Denman Island  ADOPTED 4 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
April 21, 2022 
question to gauge interest in revisiting DPA #4 to ensure that livestock and poultry are 
kept out of streams. 
 Is there a way for regulations to ensure good practice continues when farms change hands 
or go through changes in activity? 
o Permitted uses are designated within zones which are broad enough to accommodate a 
wide diversity of agricultural activities. 
 Are there already regulations through the Ministry of Environment Code of Practice to keep 
livestock away from streams? 
o The Ministry requires there be setbacks, however, they do not require specific 
structures such as fencing, and it is up to the landowner to determine how that setback 
is implemented. 
 Are there many instances on Denman Island where cows are getting into wetlands? This 
might help inform a decision that could impact farmers with a requirement for fencing that 
might be onerous. 
o A community member responded that this answer depends on how wetland or 
watercourse is defined. Definitions within the Ministry of Environment are fairly broad 
and livestock are allowed to graze but the property owner is also responsible for any 
mitigation that might be required. 
 Why is there a condition for agri-tourism accommodations to have adequate potable water 
and septic capacity? Should this not be a requirement for cabins and tents located 
anywhere? 
o Agri-tourism accommodation is not currently permitted on Denman Island and this 
option is in the questionnaire to help gauge how important that condition might be in 
consideration of this topic.  
 Are there regulations in the Agricultural Land Commission Act regarding frequency or 
duration of stay for agri-tourism accommodation?   
o Yes; the regulations require that the occupancy must be temporary and seasonal, and 
any individual tourist must limit the stay to a maximum of 30 days. 
 Can a legal secondary dwelling be used for seasonal WWOF farm help housing? 
o Yes; there are no restrictions on the occupancy of the secondary dwelling. An 
application for a non-adhering residential use could be made to the ALC for additional 
farm worker housing. Other options could apply for a farm that has been in operation 
since before the creation of the ALC. 
 Could a farmer of ALR or non-ALR land house WWOF farm help in a dwelling on another 
property owned by the farmer? 
o As long as the intent is not for a short-term vacation rental, temporary visitors are not 
regulated. 
 Are there any tools the LTC can use to reduce the risk of property values increasing on farm 
property that is allowed a large principal residence and a secondary dwelling in order to 
keep farmland in the hands of farmers? 
o Suggestions included the consideration of additional conditions to limit the size of the 
principal residence and/or secondary dwelling; exploration of restrictions on secondary 
dwellings in ALR land that might include a rental only option to limit the uptake. It is 
difficult to reconcile affordable housing with ALR, which has the priority of agriculture, 
not housing. 
 

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 5 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
April 21, 2022 
Chair Fast invited the public to view the maps displayed in the room to identify additions, 
corrections, or changes that can be brought to the attention of the consultant or planner. 
ADJOURNMENT 
By general consent the meeting was adjourned at 8:15 pm. 
 
 
_________________________ 
Sue Ellen Fast, Chair 
 
Certified Correct: 
 
 
_________________________ 
Vicky Bockman, Recorder