Denman Island Local Trust Committee community information meeting, May 30, 2022

[0:00:01] Voice 1: Okay.

[0:00:03] Trustee Fast: Yes. Okay. So the recording has begun. And I'll just launch in here. I've given the introductions and talked about what the meeting is going to be about. Denman Island Local Trust Committee meeting, May the 30th, 2022, 6.30pm, Denman Island Community Hall. And I'm calling the meeting to order.

[0:00:22] Trustee Fast: order. So here we go. We might move some things around. The timing isn't important here. First

[0:00:30] Trustee Fast: of all, I'm going to turn the meeting over, as I mentioned, to our planner, Sonia Zupanets.

[0:00:35] Trustee Fast: Planner Zupanets, if you could give your presentation. Give

[0:00:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): it away. I'm going to do a quick sound

[0:00:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): check to see if you need my voice to be out. Nope? Okay. Is

[0:01:01] Voice 6: that? Nope.

[0:01:10] Voice 23: I'm going to ask

[0:01:10] Voice 23: you if I

[0:01:24] Voice 6: can get away with it. My kids seem to think I'm the loudest thing on the

[0:01:28] Voice 6: the planet. Is that better? Okay, thank you.

[0:01:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): Good evening, thanks so much for coming. It's

[0:01:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): really nice to be in person back London. My name is Sonia Zunetz. I've been the island

[0:01:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): planner for this particular fund since it was received, as well as the previous rendition

[0:01:48] Voice 1: of the

[0:01:49] Planner Zupanec (probable): DHA application. So I'm really pleased to be at the public hearing stage with you

[0:01:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): at this point in time so I'll be reviewing all the main elements of the

[0:01:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): bylaws which are being considered for the public hearing this evening and the

[0:02:03] Planner Zupanec (probable): whole point is to make sure that you've got all the information you need through

[0:02:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): this question and answer period to be able to speak at the public hearing to

[0:02:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): your elected officials so we're going to provide you with that opportunity

[0:02:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): tonight for the question and answer period to review any and all

[0:02:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): information related to this application so including the bylaws the restrictive

[0:02:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): covenant as well as

[0:02:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): any other general proposal questions the applicant is here

[0:02:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): as well as some of the qualified professionals to support the applicant

[0:02:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): so we're going to be talking about the density transfer the affordable housing

[0:02:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): proposal the water elements the protection of the natural environment

[0:02:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): those are all elements embedded in three specific bylaws which is bylaw 241 to

[0:02:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): to amend the Denman Official Community Plan,

[0:02:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): By-law 242 to amend your land use by-law,

[0:03:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): and By-law 243, which would be a brand new housing agreement

[0:03:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): that would be specific to the Denman Green site.

[0:03:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): And then that all feeds into the whole point

[0:03:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): of hosting a public hearing.

[0:03:14] Planner Zupanec (probable): So those by-laws need to be heard.

[0:03:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): You need to comment on those by-laws

[0:03:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): in order for the local trust committee

[0:03:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): to make decisions about whether or not to move forward.

[0:03:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): The other element of that tonight is to ensure that you understand whether or not your interests

[0:03:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): are affected by any of those three bylaws that are being considered, and providing either

[0:03:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): a written submission tonight, and we have comment forms on the table when you walked

[0:03:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): in, so you could do written or you could do verbal, those are the two options.

[0:03:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): After the close of the hearing tonight, there's no further opportunities for input to the

[0:03:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): elected officials so it's very time sensitive today that this is the last

[0:03:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): opportunity for public input you can speak with me after tonight but you

[0:04:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): can't speak to your elected officials they're the ones who make the decision

[0:04:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): so let's hope we answer all your questions so we can get to that okay so

[0:04:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): I'm going to quickly go over for those of you that weren't at the community

[0:04:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): information meeting that we held earlier this year the three parcels that are

[0:04:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): part of this application. So three separate areas of Denman Island to enable the affordable housing

[0:04:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): proposal to move forward are affected by this. The first parcel is located at 6080 Woodham Road.

[0:04:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): We call this the donor parcel because it would be donating three densities from the non-agricultural

[0:04:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): land reserve portion of the property. So from a permitted seven dwellings and reducing that down

[0:04:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): to four and those would be transferred to what we classify as the receiver parcels on

[0:04:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): Danes Road lots four and five Danes Road so if this transfer would be approved through

[0:05:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): these files that we're discussing it would permit a maximum of five dwellings five separate

[0:05:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): lots where currently there are two and then the second or the third piece of this application

[0:05:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): is of course the Denman Green site which is also a receiver parcel at 1151

[0:05:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): Northwest Road and it would be an increase in density to allow up to 20

[0:05:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): units of affordable housing on that particular site and those densities are

[0:05:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): from your official community plan which permits an increase of up to 5% for the

[0:05:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): purposes of affordable housing so that's where those numbers would be drawn from

[0:05:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): And there are sufficient densities in that in order for this application to withdraw them for this purpose.

[0:05:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): So this is the Denman Green parcel.

[0:05:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): It had just recently been subdivided by the current owner so that the 1.5 hectare portion that's shown in green

[0:06:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): can be eventually transferred to the Denman Housing Association if this application is successful.

[0:06:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): And then the remaining 0.28 hectare piece, which is residentially zoned, would be retained by the current owner.

[0:06:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): And that's not part of the affordable housing application, just to be clear.

[0:06:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): Okay, so the intent is to develop that piece, the 1.5 hectare piece, for the not-for-profit affordable rental housing application for up to 20 units, as we mentioned, through hopefully successful grant applications, if it's able to be.

[0:06:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): re-zoned and receive funding from the province or other funding sources. So the applicant has

[0:06:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): prepared a number of site plans which you might be familiar with over the course of the last

[0:07:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): year and a half and this is the most recent site plan that's been posted to the website for those

[0:07:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): of you who've taken a look at it. Minor changes since the last revision that we looked at earlier

[0:07:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): this year but the site plan is really important because it delineates some significant features

[0:07:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): and functions of how this proposal would be developed so in general terms there

[0:07:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): is a significant portion that would be retained in its natural state because

[0:07:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): it's classified as a wetland area and that's shown on the site plan and the

[0:07:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): remainder of the lot would then therefore hold all the infrastructure that's

[0:07:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): required to support those 20 units of housing so that includes the parking the

[0:07:40] Planner Zupanec (probable): septic the well and the actual units themselves and this site plan also

[0:07:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): delineates a fencing requirement that's part of a restrictive covenant that the

[0:07:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): local trust committee is considering as well as the pedestrian trail along the

[0:07:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): wetland boundary and the site plan is further supported by a provisional

[0:08:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): proposed layout for those units of 12-home housing which is a mix of one

[0:08:14] Planner Zupanec (probable): two and three bedroom configurated family homes as well as a common

[0:08:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): building which would house a mechanical room, common laundry facilities, and a

[0:08:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): community space, small community space for the residents. So in terms of water

[0:08:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): which is one of the key features that has been under considerable discussion

[0:08:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): over the last few months, the dwellings would be supported by a water system

[0:08:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): that's comprised of 50% well water, so groundwater, and through an approved

[0:08:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): water license from the province and that's still pending and in process, and

[0:08:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): and 50% rainwater collection from the roof areas

[0:08:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): of the buildings that are proposed on the site.

[0:09:03] Planner Zupanec (probable): The other significant factor to this site

[0:09:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): is the proposed septic system,

[0:09:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): and the applicants are proposing

[0:09:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): a type three wastewater system,

[0:09:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): which is the most advanced system

[0:09:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): to support the 20 units of housing,

[0:09:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): and that would require a certified operator

[0:09:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): for maintenance on site.

[0:09:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): It's been designed by a qualified professional,

[0:09:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): and we do have the supporting documents that the site can accommodate this particular technology

[0:09:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): to support all the wastewater requirements.

[0:09:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): So if the by-laws subject to this hearing tonight are eventually adopted by the local

[0:09:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): trust committee, the applicant will then have to complete the water design system in order

[0:09:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): to submit the drinking water application to the province and go through the final steps

[0:09:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): steps for approval as well as refine any architectural plans for submission, landscaping, electrical

[0:10:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): and other critical infrastructure pieces as part of their grant application to the province.

[0:10:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): So there's a number of pieces and details that aren't finalized because at this stage

[0:10:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): we're still concerned with the use and the density of the land the applicant can after

[0:10:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): after the bylaws are considered, fine-tune all those details after bylaw approval or consideration.

[0:10:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): So in terms of bringing you back to the bylaw language, which is perhaps less interesting but really important for tonight,

[0:10:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): the Denman Green Parcel requires a change to your Official Community Plan.

[0:10:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): land. The land use designation is currently village and so that would need to be amended

[0:10:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): to reflect the residential use so that's a significant change in your OCP that needs

[0:10:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): to be contemplated and that is embedded in By-law 241. 241 also includes a change to

[0:10:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): remove this parcel from the commercial development permit area which currently applies to this

[0:11:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): area of Denman and that's there to guide the form and character of commercial

[0:11:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): development so it wouldn't be relevant for this particular application so the

[0:11:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): other changes to this area shown in red would be removed from the development

[0:11:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): permit area in the official community plan so it wouldn't be subject to those form and

[0:11:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): character guidelines and the other change that's required is to rezone it

[0:11:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): from the commercial zone which currently applies to the property to a new

[0:11:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): affordable housing zone which is proposed to be R4 and this is the same

[0:11:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): affordable housing zone that you might have heard being used for the DCLTA

[0:11:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): seniors affordable housing project similar base zoning so the third piece

[0:11:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): is the housing agreement bylaw number 243 and this is an important part of the

[0:12:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): application to ensure that the affordability of these units is

[0:12:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): maintained in perpetuity that's a contract agreement between the local

[0:12:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): government, which is the DEN Trust Committee, and the owners of the property, which would be the not-for-profit DEN Housing Association.

[0:12:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): And that way the parcel

[0:12:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): cannot be developed for any other purpose except to provide that affordable housing.

[0:12:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): So the Housing Agreement By-law would require DHA to construct a certain form of housing which is stipulated.

[0:12:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): It would need to be constructed to meet very specific energy efficiency standards.

[0:12:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): with that type 3 sewage disposal system that's been articulated in the reports that were submitted,

[0:12:45] Planner Zupanec (probable): and rental of the units to qualified occupants at an affordable rate.

[0:12:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): There is a specific tenant selection procedure that's stipulated in the housing agreement,

[0:12:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): and annual reporting to the Islands Trust as well.

[0:13:03] Planner Zupanec (probable): The fourth piece, which is not a bylaw, but is a restrictive covenant,

[0:13:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): This would be something that would be registered on title of the Denman Green site, and it's also an important tool because it holds the owner accountable to a certain set of restrictions.

[0:13:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): And what they are is to install fencing to mitigate noise and dust along the northern shared interior lot line,

[0:13:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): install a data logger in the well to take hourly readings of the water level the temperature the

[0:13:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): electronic electric conductivity and submit that data to the islands trust and to construct those

[0:13:40] Planner Zupanec (probable): dwellings to a minimum of a step two energy step code requirement and what we understand is that

[0:13:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): that minimum is actually much higher if the bc housing application for funding is approved

[0:13:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): I think they use step 4 but the Islands Trust would be requiring step 2 if the funding was with another agency perhaps that doesn't help

[0:14:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): so in summary just to draw your attention to the bylaws again because you will be speaking to these in the public hearing

[0:14:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): so bylaw 241 is to amend the official community plan and that's some new policy wording when you're looking at the bylaw

[0:14:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): which we have a copy of at the back there, in support of affordable rental housing,

[0:14:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): the rental tenure housing being established for Denman,

[0:14:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): that new dwellings would need to comply with the BC Energy Step Code,

[0:14:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): and it would be reducing the size of that commercial development permit area to eliminate that site.

[0:14:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): That's really the substance of the changes for that particular bylaw.

[0:14:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): And for bylaw 242, that is to amend your land use bylaw,

[0:14:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): so the the pith and substance of those changes are there would be a new zone for the r41

[0:14:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): the affordable housing site to regulate sighting size use density parking there would be a new site

[0:15:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): specific r28 zone for that donor lot that's donating three densities and a new site specific

[0:15:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): r28 zone for the receiver site on danes road that would be receiving those densities and those are

[0:15:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): not mark those are not affordable housing units those are market housing so that's the summary of

[0:15:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): the changes in there and to reiterate what's happening after the public hearing tonight

[0:15:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): because these are really important steps to keep in mind in terms of the information you

[0:15:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): want to provide to the local trust committee after this public hearing they have a meeting tomorrow

[0:15:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): so they can consider third reading and third reading is pretty significant

[0:15:45] Planner Zupanec (probable): because that sets the stage for the next set of approvals,

[0:15:49] Planner Zupanec (probable): which would be the Islands Trust Executive Committee

[0:15:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): and the provincial minister would need to approve those bylaws as a close to last step.

[0:15:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): And at that point, the bylaws can be considered for adoption by the Local Trust Committee.

[0:16:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): The title of the land could then theoretically also be transferred to DHA at that point in time

[0:16:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): just to finalize the land transfer and at that point DHA is then in a position to apply for

[0:16:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): funding to actually develop the site for the affordable housing project and it's also at that

[0:16:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): point in time that the community would expect DHA to finalize all the plans in submission for

[0:16:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): funding related to the actual architecture infrastructure but it would need to align

[0:16:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): very strongly with the restrictive covenant and the bylaws that are under discussion today

[0:16:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): So this is the critical point in which if you have burning questions, this is it for asking those questions because once the public hearing starts, it's a one-way communication.

[0:16:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): It's your comments to the local trust committee. It's not a time for questions.

[0:17:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): So if you have specific questions about the bylaws, I'm likely the best person to answer those questions.

[0:17:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): If there are specific questions about elements of the proposal, the applicant and their professional

[0:17:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): support team that's here tonight could probably best answer that.

[0:17:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): And the local trust committee, the chair would likely decide if there's any questions that

[0:17:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): you want to ask directly of the trustees.

[0:17:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): So typically what my experience has been with community information meetings is we do bleed

[0:17:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): into the public hearing time if needed because it's really important that we get your questions

[0:17:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): answered so I'll transfer it over to the chair who's going to facilitate the

[0:17:45] Planner Zupanec (probable): order in which questions will be asked and I'll be on standby to help answer

[0:17:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): any of them as well as the applicant so we'll sort of share like between the applicant and I

[0:17:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): very good

[0:17:59] Trustee Fast: thank you very much thank you planner Zupanets we're gonna I'll

[0:18:06] Trustee Fast: raise my voice here and let me know if it gets too loud so now is the time for

[0:18:15] Trustee Fast: questions and questions for the planner especially about the project and I will

[0:18:21] Trustee Fast: just note that all of the split most of the slides that she just showed are in

[0:18:25] Trustee Fast: tonight's agenda as part of the package of the meeting agenda that you can find

[0:18:32] Trustee Fast: at the website so if you ever want to look at it again or you want to have it

[0:18:36] Trustee Fast: copy for your file somehow it's her presentation is available at the analyst

[0:18:43] Trustee Fast: trust website under this Denman meeting agenda so I'd like to see if anybody's

[0:18:50] Trustee Fast: got questions for the planner can I start over here would you like to come

[0:18:54] Trustee Fast: up to the mic and then everybody can hear and it'll be on the recording thank

[0:18:59] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:18:59] Voice 16: Okay.

[0:19:00] Voice 16: I'm Steve Morgan,

[0:19:01] Voice 16: I'm the vice president of the Cornell Water System,

[0:19:04] Voice 16: which provides water for 19 families

[0:19:06] Voice 16: on Kirk and Nelson streets.

[0:19:07] Voice 16: And this is a question, right?

[0:19:08] Trustee Fast: This

[0:19:08] Voice 16: is a question.

[0:19:09] Voice 16: Great.

[0:19:09] Voice 16: I'm just

[0:19:09] Voice 16: telling you who I am.

[0:19:10] Trustee Fast: Great.

[0:19:11] Voice 16: The question is, will the residents of these

[0:19:14] Voice 16: be required to have any special training

[0:19:17] Voice 16: in order to minimize their use of resources

[0:19:21] Voice 16: or is there something special they have to do,

[0:19:24] Voice 16: some behavior that they have to have

[0:19:25] Voice 16: or can they just be regular average people

[0:19:27] Voice 16: behaving the same way that that was happening in terms of water use and sewage.

[0:19:32] Trustee Fast: Thank you. That's a good question. Is that a question for the planner?

[0:19:35] Trustee Fast: No,

[0:19:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): there's nothing in the bylaws that require any sort of

[0:19:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): education for the tenants, but the applicant can speak to how the Denman Housing Association might be responsible for

[0:19:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): tenancy selection and basic information being provided.

[0:19:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): So I would ask the applicant to possibly address that as I'm sure it's been contemplated

[0:19:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): in terms of tendency selection.

[0:20:00] Trustee Fast: Did you want to speak to that, Simon?

[0:20:02] Trustee Fast: Sure.

[0:20:02] Trustee Fast: Okay.

[0:20:03] Trustee Fast: I

[0:20:03] Voice 13: would say that there are various elements

[0:20:06] Voice 13: that go to economizing the use of water.

[0:20:10] Voice 13: One of them is low-flow fixtures,

[0:20:13] Voice 13: which are going to be incorporated into units.

[0:20:15] Voice 13: The other one is that we are reusing gray water

[0:20:19] Voice 13: for toilet flushing,

[0:20:20] Voice 13: which is going to minimize the use of fresh water

[0:20:23] Voice 13: to the tune, we estimate,

[0:20:25] Voice 13: of some 600,000 litres a year. And the third one is, as Sonia referenced just now, is tenant,

[0:20:33] Voice 13: you might call it, education, if you like, on being sparing with water. And I think,

[0:20:40] Voice 13: generally speaking, people who live on Gulf Islands are responsible and conscious of the

[0:20:48] Voice 13: the importance of minimizing water use.

[0:20:53] Voice 16: Okay,

[0:20:54] Voice 13: so you've got two passive mechanisms

[0:20:55] Voice 16: with devices, but they're also going to have to be

[0:20:59] Voice 16: thoughtful in the way that they use water and you're going to educate them in that?

[0:21:03] Voice 16: Absolutely, yeah.

[0:21:04] Voice 16: May I ask another question?

[0:21:06] Trustee Fast: Can we give somebody else a turn?

[0:21:07] Trustee Fast: Of course.

[0:21:08] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:21:09] Trustee Fast: Who else would like to ask a question?

[0:21:12] Trustee Fast: Something for clarification.

[0:21:14] Trustee Fast: Back, come on up.

[0:21:15] Trustee Fast: I'll come to you next.

[0:21:24] Voice 20: Patty Willis, I'd like some clarity on how, why the transfer of densities from Woodham to Danes

[0:21:36] Voice 20: figures into the village green, and why those two seemingly different actions are conflated.

[0:21:48] Trustee Fast: Okay, thank

[0:21:49] Trustee Fast: you. Go ahead, Planner Zupanets.

[0:21:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): So if I need to pull up the map again, I sure can,

[0:21:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): But the question around the transfer of density for the Woodham to the Daines Road parcel is that that's the primary mechanism for this parcel on Kirk Road to be transferred to DHA.

[0:22:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): It's part of a comprehensive application.

[0:22:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): There's no piecing out any element of that density transfer.

[0:22:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): They all have to happen in order for this to be successful so that the land can be transferred to DHA.

[0:22:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): So the owner of the parcels has created this agreement that would work for both parties and they've entered into this joint application to rezone the parcels and permit this transfer and increase in density so that the DHA can receive this piece in the village and develop it for the intended purpose.

[0:22:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): so it can't happen on its own that's not what the proposal is and we don't have

[0:22:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): any means to sort of piece it apart and only focus on one element because the

[0:22:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): applicants have come forward with this proposal exactly as we've presented it

[0:23:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): that it has to be the density transfers in order to support the affordable

[0:23:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): housing piece to be transferred to DHA I

[0:23:09] Voice 20: think that's not clear in the materials

[0:23:11] Voice 20: that we see okay

[0:23:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): well I'm sorry to hear that we have tried very hard to from the

[0:23:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): beginning to show graphically what's happening on these three parcels so that

[0:23:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): everybody understands that it's not just the deadman green site that we're

[0:23:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): talking about we're talking about two other pieces as well so I hope that we

[0:23:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): can clarify that tonight if there's any further questions about that I can pull

[0:23:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): of the map again thank

[0:23:36] Trustee Fast: you for your question and uh sir question for the planner yeah

[0:23:52] Voice 17: i have a

[0:23:52] Voice 17: question uh that relates to who the players are in all this who is the proponent i

[0:24:00] Trustee Fast: think we just

[0:24:00] Trustee Fast: went over that who

[0:24:01] Voice 17: is the proponent by name the

[0:24:04] Trustee Fast: denman housing association is

[0:24:06] Voice 6: the key applicant

[0:24:07] Voice 6: okay so

[0:24:07] Voice 17: that would that mean then that the denman housing association is not only representing the

[0:24:13] Voice 17: the interests of affordable housing but also the interests of the people

[0:24:18] Voice 17: involved in this density transfer

[0:24:20] Voice 11: that's correct okay

[0:24:22] Voice 17: that's not clear also in

[0:24:26] Voice 17: terms of the players I'd like to know who owns parcel number five on Woodham

[0:24:33] Voice 17: Road I think the community is entitled to know who the people are that are

[0:24:38] Voice 17: involved in this we don't have that information it wasn't in the grapevine

[0:24:42] Voice 17: or the Flagstaff.

[0:24:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): Okay, so in terms of the Lots 4 and 5 and the Denman Green site that's part of this density transfer,

[0:24:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): we have two applicants, co-applicants. We have the Denman Housing Association and the owner of the parcels.

[0:24:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): Who is

[0:24:59] Voice 17: the owner of the parcels?

[0:25:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): Henning Nielsen.

[0:25:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): Henning Nielsen.

[0:25:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): And the Wooden Parcel is owned separately, and that's the Snyder applicant. So you'll see...

[0:25:08] Voice 17: The Snyder applicant? What is the full name of that person?

[0:25:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): I don't remember the first name.

[0:25:14] Voice 17: Does anyone know who's the property owner? Nancy Snedd.

[0:25:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): Thank you. So it's, yes. So the co-applicants for this application are Denman Green and Henning Nielsen.

[0:25:27] Voice 17: Okay. And is it correct that Henning Nielsen is also the person who owns the property that you referred to earlier as the 2.8 hectare piece that's not part of the affordable housing agreement? That's correct.

[0:25:40] Voice 17: Correct. And could that property be used for commercial purposes or is it only going to be used for housing purposes?

[0:25:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): Currently it's zoned residential and it's permitted one single family dwelling.

[0:25:52] Voice 17: Okay, and so that property could be sold as a piece of residential property adjacent to this development.

[0:26:00] Voice 17: Correct.

[0:26:02] Voice 17: I have lots of other questions, but I want to let other people get

[0:26:06] Trustee Fast: a chance and I

[0:26:06] Voice 17: will come back if I can.

[0:26:07] Voice 17: Very good. Thank you.

[0:26:09] Trustee Fast: Another question for the planner or for any of us that can help answer questions? Very good. Come forward.

[0:26:18] Voice 14: Has the 0.28 Hector piece subdivision been approved?

[0:26:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): No, it's in the final stages, if I'm not mistaken, and then the transfer has not happened because it requires the bylaws to be adopted.

[0:26:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): What

[0:26:35] Voice 14: is the final stage?

[0:26:36] Voice 14: The

[0:26:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): Ministry of Transportation is responsible for final subdivision approval.

[0:26:41] Voice 14: Has the Ministry of Environmental Health been involved?

[0:26:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): Well, the Ministry of Transportation approves subdivisions and refers out to multiple agencies.

[0:26:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): So water, septic, all those things have to be approved.

[0:26:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): Thank you.

[0:26:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): Yeah.

[0:26:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): Okay.

[0:26:57] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:26:58] Trustee Fast: Who's next?

[0:26:58] Trustee Fast: Come forward.

[0:27:04] Voice 19: So in the transfer of...

[0:27:07] Trustee Fast: Could you give your name?

[0:27:08] Trustee Fast: Oh, I'm Judy Armstrong.

[0:27:09] Voice 19: Thank you.

[0:27:10] Trustee Fast: Everybody else probably knows everybody, but it's me.

[0:27:12] Voice 19: I don't know that.

[0:27:13] Voice 19: Anyways, I'm just curious, because what we're doing here is removing a vital commercially zoned piece of property from the downtown area,

[0:27:22] Voice 19: and we're making exceptions to take densities from some out-of-town area to make this affordable.

[0:27:30] Voice 19: So will the commercial, will any of the properties be replaced downtown that would be zoned commercially?

[0:27:37] Voice 19: because what we're doing is we're taking away the last and final commercial

[0:27:42] Voice 19: properties that could develop downtown area which was called the village in the

[0:27:48] Voice 19: first place and making it into a residential area so I think now with the

[0:27:56] Voice 19: way it is is that it's not the balance is changing for the downtown area has

[0:28:01] Voice 19: that been considered in this plan yes

[0:28:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): but there's no additional lands being contemplated for

[0:28:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): commercial zoning as part of this application so the need for siting affordable housing was

[0:28:14] Planner Zupanec (probable): determined to be the priority versus developing additional commercial lands at this time if and

[0:28:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): when the community decides that there is a stronger need for commercial land it would be

[0:28:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): it through a different application to rezone to commercial to compensate for the loss of

[0:28:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): that parcel if it's rezoned residential.

[0:28:34] Voice 19: So, considering that the current owner is only donating a certain portion of that land

[0:28:43] Voice 19: to affordable housing, why couldn't there be a restriction on the part that they are

[0:28:48] Voice 19: having to be considered to be only commercial and not residential?

[0:28:51] Voice 19: Yeah,

[0:28:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): so that was not what the applicants have been proposing to bring forward.

[0:28:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): What you see is the application that's been submitted to the Local Trust Committee.

[0:29:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): It's not a negotiation piece where the LTC gets to ask for this or that.

[0:29:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): This is what the applicants requested.

[0:29:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): So, and the point in time in which they need to decide whether the bylaws should be adopted

[0:29:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): is when perhaps that type of rationale might come into play.

[0:29:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): if that was deemed to be a significant risk, that there needs to be a commercial strip

[0:29:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): retained to compensate for the loss of the 1151 North White's, but that hasn't been contemplated

[0:29:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): in the documents.

[0:29:32] Voice 19: Okay.

[0:29:33] Voice 19: So that would

[0:29:33] Trustee Fast: be something to say in your comments during the public hearing, or write

[0:29:38] Trustee Fast: it down, whichever you prefer.

[0:29:39] Trustee Fast: Very good.

[0:29:40] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:29:41] Trustee Fast: Further questions?

[0:29:44] Trustee Fast: Come forward, if you'd like, so we can hear.

[0:29:57] Voice 3: My name is Sarah French.

[0:30:00] Voice 3: As you imagine, there are a lot of rumors circulating about this on island,

[0:30:05] Voice 3: and I don't pretend to be very informed,

[0:30:07] Voice 3: but one of them is that if CHMC was involved in financing,

[0:30:13] Voice 3: that they would have a great deal of say as to who the tenants would be,

[0:30:17] Voice 3: and that perhaps they would not actually be 10-minute islanders,

[0:30:21] Voice 3: if that could be addressed.

[0:30:23] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:30:24] Trustee Fast: I think there is information here about the tenants.

[0:30:28] Trustee Fast: Could you speak to that?

[0:30:29] Trustee Fast: So

[0:30:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): the point of By-law 2403, which is the housing agreement, is to address exactly this common question,

[0:30:37] Voice 1: is

[0:30:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): that regardless of who the funding sources are, this housing agreement is the basis of the tenancy selection criteria.

[0:30:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): and if you take a look at there's an entire page of what those criteria are

[0:30:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): in terms of Denman Islanders how long they've been on the island what their

[0:30:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): employment status is First Nations members etc that's the key selection

[0:31:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): criteria that is being discussed at this point in terms of being registered on

[0:31:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): title so a funder would need to agree to that or else apply back through DHA

[0:31:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): for an amendment of some sort which would require a public process to discuss what those amendments

[0:31:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): are so we can't predict what the future holds this is our best foot forward in terms of a

[0:31:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): housing agreement that captures the intent of the application the will of the local trust committee

[0:31:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): to provide some balance and anticipating what a funder may or may not actually agree to with

[0:31:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): the information that we have because it's always a moving changing target but you would be aware of

[0:31:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): any deviation from the housing agreement because this body would have to agree to it as well as

[0:31:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): dha and that would be part of a public process as as any decisions are so the best we can say

[0:32:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): is at this point in time what you see in bylaw 243 is what is being requested by the applicant

[0:32:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): and agreed to by the local trust committee

[0:32:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): because they could give second reading to it.

[0:32:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): After they adopt it, there is a chance

[0:32:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): that it might have to come back for some amendments

[0:32:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): in the future if it's required by the funder

[0:32:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): to have some more flexibility.

[0:32:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): But we're not sure what that would look like.

[0:32:31] Trustee Fast: Thank you for the question.

[0:32:35] Trustee Fast: And I believe all of these, you know, all the words,

[0:32:38] Trustee Fast: all the fine print, if you want,

[0:32:41] Trustee Fast: or the text is in tomorrow's agenda.

[0:32:44] Trustee Fast: So you can look it all up in the agenda for tomorrow's local trust committee meeting, if you wish to find it, or if there's time at the end of the meeting we can help you find it, yeah, the specific wording.

[0:33:00] Trustee Fast: Further, or talk to the proponents, of course. Further questions for the planner? Come ahead, yeah. Steve, right?

[0:33:09] Trustee Fast: Yeah, thank you.

[0:33:10] Voice 16: Go ahead.

[0:33:10] Trustee Fast: If

[0:33:11] Voice 16: we have concerns about the effectively well for Denman Green affecting the aquifer that's on our well that's fairly close by, will there be an opportunity to address that in the future?

[0:33:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): Sorry, I missed the last part.

[0:33:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): Will there

[0:33:24] Voice 16: be an opportunity to address those concerns in the future?

[0:33:27] Voice 16: So

[0:33:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): currently, the status of the water license for Denman Green is with the province right now in terms of reviewing all the hydrogeological technical information

[0:33:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): to determine whether the volume that they're proposing to extract is sustainable and supportable based on the rainwater collection, supplemental greywater,

[0:33:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): full suite of water conservation measures that they're proposing.

[0:33:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): So this is the point in time in which the province may issue that license based on a cubic meters, the number of cubic meters that they're allowed to withdraw.

[0:34:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): And they would be also looking at adjacent users and the rate of flow that's coming out of those wells to ensure that there's no impact and base their decision on that.

[0:34:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): So as far as I understand, this is the point in time in which those pieces of concerns or information would be vetted by the province before they make their final determination.

[0:34:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): Because then it becomes a condition of a permit, how much they can extract.

[0:34:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): And they have up to a certain number of years to, they call it beneficial use, to initiate that beneficial use of the wealth.

[0:34:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): And then that expires and they have to start over again.

[0:34:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): So I would suggest that if you had concerns that the provincial body that approves these water licences is likely the point of contact.

[0:34:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): If you had specific information that you needed to provide them but they have access to all the well data, all the well logs,

[0:35:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): and the most up-to-date hydrogeological assessments to make their determination

[0:35:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): as to whether or not this could be supported is

[0:35:11] Voice 16: there so you're

[0:35:12] Voice 16: recommending we would contact the province if we have further questions

[0:35:15] Voice 16: about it well

[0:35:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): if you have questions about existing in general if you have

[0:35:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): questions about existing users absolutely that's the point of contact

[0:35:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): is to talk to them about water licenses that are being issued that may or may

[0:35:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): not meet the conditions of a permit for new this is a proposed application so there's no license

[0:35:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): yet it's under review um you are of course open to contact their office and speak with their water

[0:35:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): team but um you can chat with me after the meeting and we can talk about the process for that okay

[0:35:48] Voice 13: thank you good night uh

[0:35:50] Voice 23: yes go ahead

[0:35:51] Voice 13: please supplement the answer please um we had we spent

[0:35:55] Voice 13: We spent many thousands of dollars hiring a professional hydrogeologist for Alan Dakin who did a 72 hour well test and he put measuring devices on the Kernel well and also the well across the way in the activity center and there was, after 72 hours, pumping at a rate which is three times the rate that we're planning to pump, there was no appreciable drop in the pressure.

[0:36:25] Voice 13: And he came up with a figure that showed that, and I'm quoting, sustainable year-round well yield of 9,500 liters per day.

[0:36:38] Voice 13: The water study of which his report was a part went to the ministry,

[0:36:45] Voice 13: and the ministry hydrogeologist double-checked the data on the aquifer

[0:36:52] Voice 13: and the historical flows of the wells, including the Cornell well, and they

[0:36:58] Voice 13: reduced that volume from 9,500 meters a day to 8,430 meters a day. So we've

[0:37:06] Voice 13: had two sets of hydrogeologists looking at this. Okay,

[0:37:10] Voice 16: I reviewed Mr. Dakin's

[0:37:11] Voice 16: report. The concern that we have is that we did not shut our well up while he put

[0:37:15] Voice 16: the logger into our well so our well continued to fluctuate we the well should have been shut

[0:37:19] Voice 16: off so it was conducted improperly in our opinion yes well we can talk about that later i don't

[0:37:25] Voice 16: want to take everybody sure thank

[0:37:27] Trustee Fast: you for your question thank you um any more uh questions out

[0:37:33] Trustee Fast: there i'm looking anybody with a question

[0:37:37] Trustee Fast: that hasn't been answered yet i've got a new person

[0:37:41] Trustee Fast: come on up yep question for the planner uh

[0:37:49] Voice 15: yeah actually um sam crew and immediate neighbor to

[0:37:53] Voice 15: the project and my question is pertinent to water as well but it's particularly why

[0:37:57] Voice 15: uh you require the data logging to be submitted to islands trust when it's not you who's actually

[0:38:02] Voice 15: uh issuing the water license and is that is that something that the islands trust is looking to do

[0:38:08] Voice 15: on other wells or is it just this case specific so

[0:38:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): in this case and in some other comparable

[0:38:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): applications where there's a significant increase in density we weren't sure if

[0:38:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): the province would be requiring monitoring as a condition of their

[0:38:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): license because it's a relatively new process that the province is

[0:38:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): undertaking and it appeared to our freshwater specialists that the province

[0:38:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): was being very conservative in terms of what types of conditions they might

[0:38:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): impose and monitoring was not necessarily one of them and we're

[0:38:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): concerned that that data is super valuable not just to the operators and

[0:38:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): the residents but to the land use planning decision makers who are

[0:38:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): deciding if an increase in density is supportable based on real data versus

[0:38:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): you know sort of this paper exercise we move densities around and things like

[0:39:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): that so the restrictive covenant that requires that data to be submitted is

[0:39:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): for information purposes only we wouldn't be weighing in on the condition

[0:39:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): of the license with the province. It's a safeguard in the event the province issues a license.

[0:39:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): But doesn't require hourly monitoring. The Land Use Planning Authority can say that's great for them,

[0:39:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): but we're still really interested in this data and so should the applicant and the owners.

[0:39:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): And of course everybody will agree that information is super valuable when you've got 28 minutes of housing

[0:39:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): or relying on one well. So you wouldn't argue that the data is not important.

[0:39:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): But it is a commitment to install the data logger, to download the data, submit it to the Islands Trust, but that's part of what's been determined as how to supplement this application, the applicant degree, that that would be the best foot forward to assure the community that if there was a problem, it would be caught early as opposed to after there's a problem.

[0:40:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): And then it's very difficult to rectify a well that has salt intrusion or is affecting adjacent properties.

[0:40:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): So this monitoring is proactive and supports the bylaws in a way that we haven't done in the past.

[0:40:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): So it is a new type of thing.

[0:40:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): I wouldn't say that the Islands Trust or local trust committees want to do this for lots of future applications,

[0:40:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): But for multiple densities on a single lot in the absence of provincial oversight, which is all still new, this is likely a very appropriate measure to take the precautionary approach.

[0:40:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): And at some point in the future, they could decide that's enough, we've seen enough data, everything looks to be okay, and they might decide that they don't require that.

[0:40:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): but to start out it's a restriction on the property but if you're going to use it for

[0:40:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): this purpose you better be ready to monitor and submit the data to prove that it's all good

[0:40:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): thank

[0:40:59] Trustee Fast: you for your question um i just wanted to refer to uh the data that uh simon palmer gave

[0:41:07] Trustee Fast: on behalf of denman housing association the 8 430 liters per day if you'd like to look at those

[0:41:15] Trustee Fast: figures they're on page 12 of tonight's agenda just so everybody knows the data

[0:41:20] Trustee Fast: is a informations available that's not your hand up is it it's just oh thank

[0:41:28] Trustee Fast: you okay come ahead did you have more questions

[0:41:32] Voice 3: yeah

[0:41:46] Voice 17: it's good to get to know

[0:41:47] Voice 17: who the players are in this bit and I've been thinking about what you said I've

[0:41:52] Voice 17: been wondering why someone would transfer densities from one property to

[0:41:57] Voice 17: another, from Woodham Road to Danes Road. It occurred to me that this might be a

[0:42:04] Voice 17: business deal. In other words, a property on Danes Road would be more valuable

[0:42:10] Voice 17: than a property on Woodham Road. So I guess the question is, is there anything that

[0:42:19] Voice 17: would prohibit that kind of transaction to take place, where the person donating

[0:42:25] Voice 17: the density from Woodham to Danes Road, the person being Nancy Snyder in this case, might

[0:42:36] Voice 17: financially benefit from this arrangement.

[0:42:40] Voice 17: Is there anything that would prohibit that?

[0:42:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): That piece isn't part of our purview from the local government perspective.

[0:42:49] Planner Zupanec (probable): So the rezoning application that's been applied for is the trigger.

[0:42:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): What happens behind and with those property owners is not part of the application that's

[0:42:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): being considered so you have to rezone the property in order to do the density transfer

[0:43:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): and that brings the public into that discussion into that process and

[0:43:09] Voice 17: so the answer is that it

[0:43:11] Voice 17: is possible yep

[0:43:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): and through a rezoning application the applicant's not required to disclose what

[0:43:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): if any voluntary or market trading there is all we need to know is which parcels of the island

[0:43:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): are being considered? And what are the environmental and water and sewage disposal capacities? And the permitted uses? And how is that going to affect adjacent users?

[0:43:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): But the question you're asking has to do with what might be outside of the purview of a local government rezoning application for that?

[0:43:47] Voice 17: Yeah, that might be a problem. I have a...

[0:43:50] Trustee Fast: This is a question?

[0:43:51] Trustee Fast: I

[0:43:52] Voice 17: just

[0:43:53] Trustee Fast: wanted to answer a little bit too and tell me if this is wrong, but we're here in the public interest and so this application is being considered because of proposed community benefits.

[0:44:06] Trustee Fast: I

[0:44:07] Voice 17: understand. Now, the proponent who was offering us this proposed community benefit, is the Denman Housing Association or anybody affiliated with the Denman Housing Association prohibited from making a financial benefit on the sale of any property that happens on Danes Road or the adjacent property to this development, which would be available for sale?

[0:44:36] Voice 17: uh at uh market value does anything prohibit that the

[0:44:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): diamond housing association doesn't

[0:44:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): own any property so they they wouldn't be in a position to sell anything no

[0:44:47] Voice 17: they wouldn't be

[0:44:48] Voice 17: selling it but can they benefit from a deal that they struck with the person who is developing

[0:44:55] Voice 17: that property on gaines road or the adjacent property downtown in which they would financially

[0:45:01] Voice 17: Any individual might financially benefit from that. Is that prohibited?

[0:45:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): A not-for-profit can't profit.

[0:45:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): So they may receive donations, financial donations, for the not-for-profit.

[0:45:16] Trustee Fast: To the association.

[0:45:17] Trustee Fast: They have

[0:45:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): to be used. The association has to disperse that money then in accordance with their own bylaws.

[0:45:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): and so they wouldn't be able to individually board members could not

[0:45:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): individually profit and if

[0:45:33] Voice 17: they did they would have to step down

[0:45:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): that's some of

[0:45:41] Trustee Fast: the society's act I believe

[0:45:43] Voice 17: it's good okay so I just wanted to clarify that

[0:45:46] Voice 17: for future reference can

[0:45:49] Trustee Fast: I stop you

[0:45:50] Voice 17: for a second I'm just

[0:45:51] Trustee Fast: gonna see if there's

[0:45:51] Trustee Fast: other

[0:45:52] Voice 17: kinds of questions. As long as I can come back, that's fine.

[0:45:55] Trustee Fast: Okay, thank you. I'm wondering if there's people who've got other questions that haven't been heard yet. Oh, come forward. Welcome.

[0:46:17] Voice 10: Do you

[0:46:17] Trustee Fast: want to say your name?

[0:46:19] Voice 10: Okay, my name is Noah, and I apologize, I missed the start of the meeting, so if this has been asked, just let me know. Please

[0:46:24] Trustee Fast: go ahead, make sure we all hear. Yeah.

[0:46:26] Trustee Fast: I'm

[0:46:27] Voice 10: trying to read through the restrictive covenant for the 243 related to the tenants.

[0:46:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): Housing agreement, yeah.

[0:46:42] Voice 10: And as far as I can parse that out, it looks like the sort of financial, I'm interested in the financial criteria and kind of who can stay there.

[0:46:52] Voice 10: And from as far as I can tell, it looks like the eligibility is partly based on Comox Valley.

[0:47:01] Voice 10: I think it's the maximum income that's set by like BC Housing's Comox Valley, I forget the exact name,

[0:47:11] Voice 10: or a potential agreement with a funder that would require certain disabilities.

[0:47:17] Voice 10: And I think that those are the sort of the financial metrics aside from the portion that's the maximum 30% that's assigned for market housing. Is that roughly correct?

[0:47:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): Yes, so they have to use a geographic representation for income levels and that's why the Comox Valley area is being used for Denman because that's the nearest community for those income thresholds.

[0:47:45] Planner Zupanec (probable): and the 30 that you're referring to is for income that's the income for shelter the maximum would be

[0:47:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): 30 could be used for income and not exceed that is that the reference yeah and then

[0:47:59] Voice 10: i think there

[0:48:00] Voice 10: was also a potential that some of the units could be rented for affordable market market rates

[0:48:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): correct and those would still have to be for the affordability of those market units would

[0:48:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): supplement and subsidize the deeper subsidy units so the mix of 20 units would be determined

[0:48:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): at the time that the funder each funder has their own requirements for financial

[0:48:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): planning of course and so that mix can't be predetermined at this stage so the housing

[0:48:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): agreements have to have some level of flexibility to permit that mix to allow for deeply subsidized

[0:48:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): units to be constructed and be subsidized by affordable market rental units.

[0:48:45] Voice 10: And so my question is, I see that there's restrictions put in around residence and other

[0:48:52] Voice 10: requirements, but I don't see any restrictions put around ensuring, as you said, the kind

[0:48:59] Voice 10: of deeply subsidized units, that there is priority given to people that would need a

[0:49:04] Voice 10: more deeper subsidy uh i see that there's the the restriction where it can't be more than 30

[0:49:11] Voice 10: income but it but there isn't aside from bc housing's maps things that set the complex valley

[0:49:19] Voice 10: for time to time a kind of upper ceiling on who would qualify and i guess my concern is that it

[0:49:26] Voice 10: as affordable housing should be uh you know within the realms of what is necessary in order to get

[0:49:35] Voice 10: funding it should be it should ensure that the sort of poorest the people most need can have

[0:49:41] Voice 10: housing there and i i don't can

[0:49:43] Voice 23: i just is this a uh have you got more of your question i'm getting

[0:49:48] Voice 10: there okay the

[0:49:49] Voice 10: question is could islands trust put a restrictive covenant that said say 30 percent

[0:49:58] Voice 10: would basically like that an applicant would there would be preference given to more lower

[0:50:06] Voice 10: lower-income applicants?

[0:50:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): Sure.

[0:50:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): In theory, you could do that.

[0:50:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): What we've been advised by BC Housing, CMHC,

[0:50:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): all the big-picture housing funders is that they need the flexibility

[0:50:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): to determine on a case-by-case basis how to leverage the maximum number

[0:50:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): of units for the lowest-income people.

[0:50:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): And that depends on how much does it cost to service the site,

[0:50:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): How much does it cost to build on site? Because every community has different servicing and building costs.

[0:50:40] Planner Zupanec (probable): And so Denman might be different and it might factor in that there has to be a different recipe of units to support the maximum number of lowest income residents in terms of the 20 units being developed or built.

[0:50:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): so if the local government decides to insert more stringent requirements that decreases

[0:51:03] Planner Zupanec (probable): flexibility for creative options on how to subsidize those units we've been advised that

[0:51:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): that can really affect negatively affect an applicant's application for funding so the

[0:51:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): housing agreement's been drafted in a way that hopefully would appeal to the funders because it

[0:51:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): gives that flexibility we understand that all the funders for not-for-profit housing

[0:51:27] Planner Zupanec (probable): their number one goal is to have the highest number of units built

[0:51:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): that are for the lowest income residents of the community so how they do that is to create a fund

[0:51:40] Planner Zupanec (probable): financing as well as reducing servicing costs as much as possible so the site plan that you

[0:51:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): see here there's costs associated with every inch of this and so this is conceptual it's the

[0:51:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): proposal that comes with these files but at the time that a funder looks at this there might need

[0:51:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): to be some adjustments made because their number one objective is maximum number of units to be

[0:52:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): deeply subsidized and so we've been advised that that is their priority that's their whole reason

[0:52:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): and for existing and so any extra restrictions that we had at the local government level

[0:52:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): may need to or may affect the final outcome so we're trying to balance that out by saying we

[0:52:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): need to protect the well and we need this fencing we need this type 2 sewage system and then

[0:52:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): everything else hopefully will be discussed at the design table when they find a funder who's ready

[0:52:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): to go. Thank

[0:52:38] Trustee Fast: you. Yes sir.

[0:52:48] Voice 9: Bill Eccleston, my question was more to do with the study that was done by the Islands Trust

[0:52:55] Voice 9: four years ago in terms of the affordable housing needs of Denman. And I just wanted to clarify that my understanding

[0:53:02] Voice 9: is generally correct that that study sort of reinforced other information that somewhere between,

[0:53:08] Voice 9: we that if this project goes ahead and gets through all of the incredible hurdles and the

[0:53:13] Voice 9: you know the various commentary from those who seem to oppose it uh not many of them but that

[0:53:21] Voice 9: would only generate somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of the affordable housing needs for this

[0:53:26] Voice 9: island because that generally what the report is yeah

[0:53:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): correct i can't remember the number exactly

[0:53:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): Exactly, perhaps the trustees can call 110 rings a bell, people living far below suitable housing on the island already, that was four years ago data, so we know that incrementally most of the island communities are not seeing a decrease in that, so the need is greater than the supply that's being proposed today, under this application.

[0:53:55] Voice 9: So much more needed then, thank you.

[0:53:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): Thank you. Yes, come forward.

[0:54:03] Voice 21: Hi, my name is Lindsay McGim. I am a resident of this neighborhood. One question is, where

[0:54:10] Voice 21: do we drop the comment cards? Because I don't think I'm going to be able to stay for the

[0:54:13] Voice 21: comment period.

[0:54:14] Voice 21: Just right there. Yeah, good question.

[0:54:18] Voice 21: Okay, but I have another one. I guess my other

[0:54:21] Voice 21: sort of two-part question is, how much effort

[0:54:25] Voice 21: Islands Trust has made or will be making to talk to the people who might actually live

[0:54:30] Voice 21: in this housing about the the need for it affordable housing in our community

[0:54:34] Voice 21: well I think it's very important to hear from the community and address these

[0:54:39] Voice 21: concerns I would hope that attention is also being given and we're hearing from

[0:54:45] Voice 21: the folks who might actually live in this housing and then I just also wanted

[0:54:49] Voice 21: to hear about how what the process is like in terms of we just heard from Bill

[0:54:55] Voice 21: about the need you know anecdotally as a parent we know there's a significant

[0:54:59] Voice 21: number of single parents especially mothers on this island who are currently

[0:55:04] Voice 21: unhoused or precariously housed and the harm that that's causing those families

[0:55:09] Voice 21: so I guess I want to know how that need and those harms are being balanced

[0:55:13] Voice 21: against you know this setting and the concerns the community members may have

[0:55:18] Voice 21: thank you thank

[0:55:19] Trustee Fast: you for the question how

[0:55:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): we notify and include and engage the

[0:55:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): community we don't necessarily target individual groups potential tenants because we don't know

[0:55:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): who they might be the community is treated almost entirely equally in terms of we hope that they

[0:55:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): have access to the standard notification processes that we use through local government channels

[0:55:44] Planner Zupanec (probable): to signify that there's been you know i think four community information meetings to date across the

[0:55:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): span of the four years that i've been working with denman housing association at least

[0:55:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): this particular rendition we've had the applicants had one meeting we've had at least one and so if

[0:56:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): people would need to provide their input through those channels there's been no we don't through

[0:56:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): a rezoning application do consultation or engagement with specific groups of individuals

[0:56:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): that might be affected by the bylaws so they would need to self-identify and present their

[0:56:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): concerns to the elected officials second part of your question is sort

[0:56:28] Voice 21: of about need versus concern

[0:56:30] Voice 21: maybe in the community and how those are weighed when making the final decision so

[0:56:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): the elected

[0:56:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): officials take into consideration the obviously the northern region's housing needs assessment

[0:56:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): is a piece of data it's already four years old so that's but that's important benchmark data

[0:56:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): for them to consider the applicants reports and any professional reports

[0:56:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): that they provided they have to balance that against the input that they

[0:56:58] Planner Zupanec (probable): received from us as staff as well as the professionals that the applicants been

[0:57:03] Planner Zupanec (probable): using as well as the community groups and your advisory planning commission

[0:57:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): and other referral agencies so this was referred to over 17 different groups and

[0:57:14] Planner Zupanec (probable): agencies and their comments have to be considered and balanced

[0:57:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): and they have a very difficult duty to determine

[0:57:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): how to shift that balance in terms of are there changes

[0:57:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): or is this an outright yes or no are there improvements to the bylaws that

[0:57:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): can be made and if so does that mean that we have to

[0:57:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): start over or are they small changes that can be

[0:57:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): implemented at this stage they're bound by a legislative process

[0:57:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): process on how to tweak these bylaws so they can't do much tomorrow. If they change use

[0:57:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): or density, it takes the applicant right back to the beginning of the process. If they're

[0:57:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): just small changes, they can keep going. So it's a really big decision that they have

[0:57:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): to continuously take this input that they've been receiving, professional, community, technical,

[0:58:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): a goal and determine whether or not these bylaws are fit to be adopted in the next stages.

[0:58:14] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[0:58:15] Trustee Fast: Thank you for your question.

[0:58:18] Trustee Fast: Any more questions that are specific to the application?

[0:58:21] Trustee Fast: Here we go.

[0:58:22] Trustee Fast: Come on forward.

[0:58:28] Trustee Fast: Specific to this application.

[0:58:29] Trustee Fast: Go ahead.

[0:58:30] Voice 4: A question.

[0:58:31] Voice 4: I understand.

[0:58:32] Voice 4: My name is Rhianne Silva.

[0:58:34] Voice 4: I've been a resident of Denman Island for 25 years.

[0:58:36] Voice 4: I self-identify as a person in need of the housing that this project would provide.

[0:58:43] Voice 4: Is there anybody else willing to self-identify?

[0:58:47] Voice 4: We're outnumbered.

[0:58:48] Voice 4: Thank you, C.

[0:58:49] Voice 4: Thank you.

[0:58:52] Voice 4: Gosh, thank you for considering this.

[0:58:54] Voice 4: It's been a long, long push and haul to get this far.

[0:58:58] Voice 4: I am getting to the question.

[0:58:59] Voice 4: If this application is not approved, what plans are there to meet the known need of housing on Denman Island?

[0:59:12] Trustee Fast: That's a little outside of this particular application, but if you will remember last month's Local Trust Committee,

[0:59:22] Trustee Fast: there was a number of housing related topics that we dealt with at the Local Trust Committee level.

[0:59:28] Trustee Fast: what we're here tonight to hear about is questions and then comments from the

[0:59:33] Trustee Fast: public about this particular application so if you've got a question about that

[0:59:38] Trustee Fast: I

[0:59:40] Voice 4: would like to echo Lindsay's question which is at what point will you be

[0:59:43] Voice 4: engaging with people in need because while the floor is open it's very

[0:59:50] Voice 4: difficult to stand up and say I'm in need and most people are not here

[0:59:56] Voice 4: because they're afraid and we

[1:00:00] Voice 4: need to work so how will you uh be engaging sure i can speak to that really with

[1:00:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): renters

[1:00:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): this application is this is why we're here is to deal with this application as a general note

[1:00:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): the local trust committee has initiated their housing review project as of last month they

[1:00:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): endorsed a list of priorities and that project's been funded to the tune of i think it's thirteen

[1:00:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): $13,500 is all they were managed to get

[1:00:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): through Islands Trust budgets.

[1:00:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): So they need to use that in this fiscal

[1:00:33] Planner Zupanec (probable): to determine how to tweak the only thing

[1:00:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): they have power over,

[1:00:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): which is your OCP and your land use by-law

[1:00:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): to make it more flexible for housing options.

[1:00:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): And so that project is just starting

[1:00:45] Planner Zupanec (probable): and it will hopefully result in the engagement

[1:00:49] Planner Zupanec (probable): that you're asking for and hope to see in the community

[1:00:54] Planner Zupanec (probable): so that it can inform actual changes to those two pieces, those two regulatory pieces, which is all that they can do to make housing more flexible.

[1:01:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): It doesn't mean that they build it or do anything with it, but somebody else might be able to do that.

[1:01:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): So that's the only project underway by the Islands Trust Level Trust Committee that addresses housing at the time.

[1:01:18] Planner Zupanec (probable): And then other than that, if another applicant comes forward, we have the DCLTA application that's still ongoing, this one, and there's nothing else in the DACA right now.

[1:01:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): But that doesn't mean that there won't be.

[1:01:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): Perhaps something else will come forward, and that would be through this type of application again.

[1:01:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): Site-specific, very detailed application.

[1:01:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): But the general project is just begun.

[1:01:44] Voice 4: May you all be safe in your homes.

[1:01:47] Voice 4: That's all I want.

[1:01:48] Voice 4: that's all renters want thank you thank you

[1:01:51] Voice 4: for your question um further

[1:01:53] Trustee Fast: questions about the application come come ahead so

[1:02:00] Voice 19: it's Judy Armstrong and I'm

[1:02:02] Voice 19: just was on behalf of other people who couldn't come they were wanting to know

[1:02:06] Voice 19: and this may be that I do I'm not aware of how this process works but it says

[1:02:11] Voice 19: that this is the final option to have input is that only for the change of the

[1:02:17] Voice 19: bylaws or is it only is it going to be for the whole bottle wax important

[1:02:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): question it's for the entire application for this DHA application after the

[1:02:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): public hearing closes you really only have access to me because I don't make

[1:02:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): any decisions you can't speak to or provide information to the local trust

[1:02:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): committee because then all that information would need to be public

[1:02:43] Planner Zupanec (probable): again so the point of the public hearing is you get to see everything that they

[1:02:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): get to see and consider and that's what that big fat binder at the back is it's the whole

[1:02:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): application's worth of reports public input technical details if after the hearing they

[1:03:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): receive something new from a resident and they are therefore unable to consider adoption of the

[1:03:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): bylaws because they were in receipt of new information that not everybody else had access to

[1:03:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): so it restarts the whole process back to public hearing and this local government piece is super

[1:03:17] Planner Zupanec (probable): frustrating for people to understand but it's to protect the integrity of the

[1:03:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): bylaws that what you're talking about and seeing is exactly the same as what

[1:03:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): they're considering so tonight is super important it is the last opportunity for

[1:03:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): input to your elected officials that doesn't mean you can't talk to staff I

[1:03:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): can still answer your questions we could still talk about process and updates on

[1:03:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): where things are at but you can't speak to them about it. That's the

[1:03:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): the provincial regulations about public

[1:03:48] Voice 19: hearings. That's correct but you can see that there's not

[1:03:52] Voice 19: even one percent of the of the population here and perhaps I missed previous meetings where there

[1:03:59] Voice 19: was input and that's my fault but there are a lot of people who are wanting to speak more or give

[1:04:07] Voice 19: more input and I just don't think that just at the end of this meeting that should be the final

[1:04:13] Voice 19: offer you're just bringing up all kinds of things that people are wanting to

[1:04:16] Voice 19: consider or know about and they're not even here and and you're recording it

[1:04:21] Voice 19: for what purpose they can view it but now they can't put any more input in it

[1:04:25] Voice 19: seems to me that the door is already closed so

[1:04:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): our community information

[1:04:30] Planner Zupanec (probable): meeting that we held in January just so you know the only thing that's changed

[1:04:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): since January are some slight changes to this site plan and that it's just

[1:04:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): slightly more detailed so I'm basically presenting the same information that was

[1:04:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): presented in january and at that point in time we implored everybody to take a look at the material

[1:04:49] Planner Zupanec (probable): contact staff if you have any questions because we knew that we were headed towards public hearing

[1:04:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): um later in the spring because things were starting to line up the applicant the bylaws

[1:04:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): were being given second reading so that's an indication that um we're headed towards public

[1:05:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): hearing and it's looking like the applicants checked off all the requirements that we've

[1:05:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): been asking for for the last year so i know it seems like a short period of time january to may

[1:05:13] Planner Zupanec (probable): in the grand scheme of things but there's been very few people connecting with staff to ask about

[1:05:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): questions or correspondence to indicate that there's concern or general um uneasiness about

[1:05:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): the substance of the bylaws otherwise in my staff reports if you look at them we have a section that

[1:05:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): talks about public engagement and consultation we flag for them to say there's a lot of inquiries

[1:05:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): coming in we feel like there needs to be another community information meeting because the volume

[1:05:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): of people that are contacting us usually indicates there's a problem and so not in my defense but i

[1:05:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): really haven't heard that so that's why we're here today because i gave them full confidence

[1:05:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): that we felt that the bylaws were ready and that this opportunity today would give an indication of

[1:06:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): not necessarily support but this is the point in time in which the community is

[1:06:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): ready to provide input versus asking technical questions because we feel like

[1:06:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): the information hasn't changed that much since the beginning of this

[1:06:16] Voice 19: year. So what

[1:06:17] Voice 19: section either that your your part or this public impact is going to make it

[1:06:23] Voice 19: clear whether or not there will be some priorities for like the other ladies

[1:06:29] Voice 19: that are talking about that the need for people on denman to get first priorities will that come

[1:06:36] Voice 19: out sometime or other because i'm totally confused about you're talking about a community and using

[1:06:41] Voice 19: cbr um comox valley um income to base things on well is that only going to be the comox valley

[1:06:50] Voice 19: Valley income or on Denman? I think we're quite confused about how people are going to be determined whether they are housed here on Denman.

[1:07:04] Trustee Fast: So it's a question about eligibility. Thank you. Okay, thank you for your question.

[1:07:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): This is such a good point because the housing agreement is such an important tool, yet if you've looked at it, it can be super complicated because it's written in a way that funders who do this for a living, they are providing not-for-profit, deeply subsidized housing for communities across Canada.

[1:07:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): Those agreements are in partnership with the local government.

[1:07:35] Planner Zupanec (probable): In this case, you're done with the local trust committee.

[1:07:37] Planner Zupanec (probable): and DHA has done their best in our opinion to articulate the tenancy selection criteria that would be used for this project only

[1:07:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): and you might remember DCLTA had a different sample housing agreement

[1:07:52] Planner Zupanec (probable): so there's two examples on Denman right now that are really good to look at and they're very different

[1:07:57] Planner Zupanec (probable): and DHA is a specific bylaw 243 to ensure that whoever the funder is

[1:08:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): is, the proposal is to ensure, and I'll ask Simon to jump in if I've missed any, that these are residents of Denman Island for the last two years.

[1:08:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): Right.

[1:08:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): So that, number one, is the criteria.

[1:08:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): Or a member of the First Nation band that would be eligible.

[1:08:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): So there's no differentiation or prioritization between those two, because the applicants need to meet that minimum requirement.

[1:08:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): environment, employment status, you'll have to jump in for me on this one.

[1:08:38] Planner Zupanec (probable): Can

[1:08:38] Voice 13: I jump in?

[1:08:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): Yeah, absolutely.

[1:08:41] Voice 13: Go ahead, please, Simon.

[1:08:42] Trustee Fast: There are really two

[1:08:43] Voice 13: aspects of this.

[1:08:44] Voice 13: One is eligibility and one is selection, and they are two completely different things.

[1:08:51] Voice 13: Everybody on Denman who has been resident on Denman for two years is eligible.

[1:08:55] Voice 13: Equally, the First Nations who have claim on the land of Denman are regarded as Denman

[1:09:05] Voice 13: residents and therefore eligibility is the same as if they lived on Denman.

[1:09:10] Voice 13: That's eligibility.

[1:09:12] Voice 13: Qualification is to be determined by a small committee, God help them, who have got to

[1:09:21] Voice 13: look literally at the names, the work history of the person, the residential

[1:09:27] Voice 13: situation of the person, whether they paid rent in their previous place of

[1:09:33] Voice 13: living, whether they have children for example, whether they're single mother

[1:09:38] Voice 13: with children as opposed to a married couple with children. In other words, is the

[1:09:43] Voice 13: need for these precious 20 units of housing greater for this person or that

[1:09:48] Voice 13: person. That is qualification and I can't talk to that now because we don't know

[1:09:54] Voice 13: who the applicants are specifically and that's the stage though at which the

[1:10:02] Voice 13: qualification will be the determining factor. Qualification and

[1:10:08] Voice 13: selection? Yeah.

[1:10:09] Trustee Fast: Thank you. Thank you for the question. Are there any more questions? Because

[1:10:14] Trustee Fast: we're coming up to 7.45. I see a new speaker. Come on up and ask your question.

[1:10:19] Trustee Fast: that's terrific welcome

[1:10:21] Voice 11: i'm charles kinsh i'm um concerned about this not you know more from

[1:10:30] Voice 11: the density transaction from working to dane's road because i do own an adjacent property to

[1:10:37] Voice 11: the properties on dane's road um i did make a written submission which i was going to submit

[1:10:42] Voice 11: to the public hearing but from what i have been hearing part of that is just a question

[1:10:50] Voice 11: which you know since the public hearing is just gaining input is not going to get responses

[1:10:55] Voice 11: a big concern i've got about the danes the density transfers in danesville is regarding water

[1:11:02] Voice 11: because i hear so much about the effort that's been gone into the water requirements of denman

[1:11:10] Voice 11: green the potential effect on adjacent properties and their well wells and everything on yeah in the

[1:11:18] Voice 11: Denman Green case on the Danes Road case the proposal is for two properties

[1:11:26] Voice 11: which currently have two densities to be up to five those two properties at the

[1:11:34] Voice 11: moment only have one viable well on them lot five did have a well dug but has

[1:11:43] Voice 11: has been abandoned, decommissioned because it was salty.

[1:11:48] Voice 11: The lot four had two wells dug,

[1:11:51] Voice 11: one was abandoned because it was salty as well.

[1:11:55] Voice 11: So it is the only one of the two properties

[1:11:57] Voice 11: that has a viable water source.

[1:12:01] Voice 11: And so the question is,

[1:12:03] Voice 11: my understanding was in order to approve the subdivision,

[1:12:12] Voice 11: water water source needs to be proven on those two web properties i see no indication of any

[1:12:20] Voice 11: additional wells being proposed of any community water system being proposed there is no seems to

[1:12:28] Voice 11: be no analysis of whether that those two properties will accept the increased intensity from two to

[1:12:35] Voice 11: five when it is already known on those two properties they cannot even support

[1:12:41] Voice 11: two wells on the two properties.

[1:12:44] Trustee Fast: So your question is has

[1:12:47] Voice 11: any

[1:12:50] Voice 11: water analysis been done on the density transfer to the Danes Road site to

[1:12:57] Voice 11: justify subdivision further than the two densities that are already approved for

[1:13:04] Voice 11: for those two properties.

[1:13:06] Trustee Fast: Thank you for your question.

[1:13:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): Planner Zupanet?

[1:13:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): That's a great question.

[1:13:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): Yes, that was a shared concern

[1:13:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): at the beginning of this application

[1:13:14] Planner Zupanec (probable): that the applicant needed to demonstrate

[1:13:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): that the existing lots that were not long ago subdivided

[1:13:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): and had to do proof of water

[1:13:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): in order to gain subdivision approval

[1:13:23] Planner Zupanec (probable): for just those two lots.

[1:13:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): They were able to provide and demonstrate sufficient water

[1:13:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): for the two lots.

[1:13:29] Voice 11: Off of the one well that's on lot four.

[1:13:32] Voice 11: uh

[1:13:32] Planner Zupanec (probable): matt i can't recall in terms of the number of wells that we have documentation from the

[1:13:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): provincial approving officer that those lots were able to meet the minimum water requirement that

[1:13:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): the denman land use model has for quality and quantity but there is a restrictive covenant

[1:13:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): on the property related to quality and i'm not sure if it relates to lots four or five but

[1:13:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): that was part of that first subdivision application so as part of this rezoning

[1:14:00] Planner Zupanec (probable): absolutely there was scrutiny around could those lots support that additional density if there's

[1:14:07] Planner Zupanec (probable): increased intensification of the aquifers withdrawal so the applicant was asked to

[1:14:12] Planner Zupanec (probable): provide that that's if you follow this application it's gone along that was one of the hold-ups as

[1:14:19] Planner Zupanec (probable): well as the applicant had to provide sufficient evidence that there was not just adequate water

[1:14:24] Planner Zupanec (probable): to potentially support a subdivision application in the future but also adequate space for sewage

[1:14:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): disposal for those five dwellings and five lots and both those pieces were provided so the local

[1:14:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): trust committee was able to check that off the list of outstanding issues that hadn't been

[1:14:40] Planner Zupanec (probable): addressed when they submitted the application but

[1:14:43] Voice 11: that information doesn't seem to be publicly

[1:14:45] Voice 11: available no

[1:14:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): it is it's part of the professional reports package on the website okay and so just

[1:14:50] Planner Zupanec (probable): so you know if this were to all be approved and adopted the zoning just sort of sits there it's

[1:14:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): still up to the owner of those lots to then go through the subdivision process in the future and

[1:15:02] Planner Zupanec (probable): demonstrate proof of water at that point in time so these the reports and the information that's

[1:15:08] Planner Zupanec (probable): been provided may not be sufficient to prove subdivision potential and so in the future at

[1:15:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): that point in time they would need to provide sufficient evidence to compel the approving

[1:15:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): officer that they've actually the conditions are the same or they've changed and here's the data

[1:15:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): to support a subdivision in the future and

[1:15:29] Voice 11: that will also include the potential

[1:15:32] Voice 11: adverse effect on adjacent properties since it's a single aquifer supplying

[1:15:37] Voice 11: that as the rest of that subdivision that was only recently subdivided yeah

[1:15:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): it's the same process for residential subdivisions in terms of proof of water it's the

[1:15:47] Planner Zupanec (probable): volume they have to provide a 2200 liters per dwelling per day and then they have to

[1:15:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): do a quality test and if there's any adverse parameters they have a covenant regarding

[1:16:01] Planner Zupanec (probable): purification and disinfection of the water and things like that so for residential use it's

[1:16:06] Planner Zupanec (probable): quite standard how that water piece plays out for these multi-family dwelling units like the DHA

[1:16:15] Planner Zupanec (probable): it's a water license so it's a much more smaller scrutiny and as technical review

[1:16:21] Planner Zupanec (probable): because the volume of water is under a license versus residential use, you just

[1:16:28] Planner Zupanec (probable): drill a well and you use it and there's no oversight or monitoring.

[1:16:33] Voice 1: Okay, thank

[1:16:34] Trustee Fast: you

[1:16:35] Trustee Fast: for your question. Any more questions? I'm just noting we're getting up towards

[1:16:40] Trustee Fast: 8 o'clock and you know the ferry's here, we want to catch, I've got to catch

[1:16:46] Trustee Fast: the 910 ferry and so we could go on into tomorrow if there's that many

[1:16:52] Trustee Fast: submissions that people want to make verbally but I'm hoping that that's most

[1:16:56] Trustee Fast: of the questions about this application okay I'm going to allow one more about

[1:17:03] Trustee Fast: this this application go ahead some

[1:17:25] Voice 17: of the issues that have been raised the

[1:17:28] Voice 17: questions

[1:17:29] Trustee Fast: it's a question they're

[1:17:30] Voice 17: all questions the first question is and

[1:17:37] Voice 17: maybe it's for you Simon we've talked about affordable market goes to just

[1:17:46] Voice 17: affordable housing units. Affordable market units will be more expensive to

[1:17:53] Voice 17: rent. I've heard a figure, maybe from you in one of the Zoom meetings, that as much

[1:18:01] Voice 17: as 30% of that 20 housing units available could be for

[1:18:09] Voice 17: affordable market units.

[1:18:12] Voice 13: So as the planner was explaining earlier, it's a

[1:18:18] Voice 13: financial equation we have the site we're sitting here at 2022 chances are that that site is not

[1:18:27] Voice 13: going to be built if we are very very lucky until 2024 at the earliest sitting here today we nor

[1:18:38] Voice 13: bc housing nor cmhc nor any other funder knows what it's going to cost to build those units

[1:18:45] Voice 13: therefore they cannot determine what the mortgage is going to be that we've got to carry

[1:18:53] Voice 13: and how much rent has got to be paid to the operator to pay off that mortgage

[1:19:01] Voice 13: the determination of that level of rent uh is the is what's going to drive whether it's going to be

[1:19:08] Voice 13: 30% near market, or 20% near market, or 25% deeply subsidized.

[1:19:15] Voice 13: So there's no answer to the question except, as the planner was saying,

[1:19:22] Voice 13: these funders are in the business of maximizing the number of affordable units

[1:19:29] Voice 13: and minimizing, therefore, the number of near market units.

[1:19:34] Voice 17: Yes, I mentioned 30% because you had mentioned it before.

[1:19:37] Voice 17: floor. And I think many people... Could you direct

[1:19:40] Trustee Fast: your questions to me and then I'll... Yes,

[1:19:42] Voice 17: I will. Thank you. And you can turn it over to her. I, like many people, understand that some affordable housing is better than none at all. But what we want to do is maximize the affordable housing. There are concerns that in this negotiation with BC Housing

[1:20:13] Voice 17: or Canada Mortgage or whoever it is that is the affordable housing funder,

[1:20:19] Voice 17: that the number of actual units for people in more dire need

[1:20:25] Voice 17: will be reduced even further than 30%.

[1:20:29] Voice 17: Those guys play hardball.

[1:20:31] Trustee Fast: So your question?

[1:20:32] Voice 17: So the question is...

[1:20:33] Trustee Fast: Because I'm asking this

[1:20:35] Voice 17: because people are starting to leave.

[1:20:36] Voice 17: The question is, if the agreement that was reached

[1:20:42] Voice 17: between Denman Housing Association and the funding agency seemed very different

[1:20:49] Voice 17: than what had been proposed to the local trust committee in terms of the number

[1:20:55] Voice 17: of affordable units and I don't mean affordable market units but affordable units.

[1:21:01] Voice 17: Would that then have to come back to the LTC for approval? Any

[1:21:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): change from the

[1:21:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): housing agreement 243 requires the applicant to come back to the local trust committee to amend the bylaws.

[1:21:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): it's an administrative bylaw so they would have to give it first second third reading it doesn't

[1:21:22] Planner Zupanec (probable): need to go to a public hearing necessarily but it does have to show up at a business meeting in the

[1:21:26] Planner Zupanec (probable): public to say here's the changes that are requested by the applicant in order to whatever the situation

[1:21:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): is with the funder that they need to address there's some sort of restriction or flexibility

[1:21:39] Planner Zupanec (probable): that's required so that is an option for this housing agreement now

[1:21:43] Voice 17: does the proposal specify

[1:21:45] Voice 17: a five percentage no

[1:21:48] Planner Zupanec (probable): because as it was mentioned by the applicant we can't predict what that is

[1:21:53] Planner Zupanec (probable): and it's too restrictive at this point in time it would be a it would be some sort of a comfort

[1:21:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): number that is meaningless well

[1:22:01] Voice 17: how would you know there was a change then that had to be brought

[1:22:05] Voice 17: back to the ltc if there's no fixed the change

[1:22:08] Voice 17: percentage in the first place

[1:22:10] Planner Zupanec (probable): oh i see what you

[1:22:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): mean so that i'm talking about changes in general to any element of 243 right now so that would be

[1:22:16] Planner Zupanec (probable): the tenancy selection the eligibility criteria the percentage income those elements are fixed

[1:22:22] Voice 17: i'm talking about affordability they're

[1:22:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): all deemed affordable housing units

[1:22:29] Planner Zupanec (probable): the fact that some are closer to near market as simon used the term versus deeply subsidized that

[1:22:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): equation is not fixed in the housing agreement because it would be a hypothetical number

[1:22:41] Planner Zupanec (probable): at this point and at the point in time in which a funder was actually crunching the numbers to determine whether it works.

[1:22:49] Voice 17: Yes, and I think that's a problem.

[1:22:51] Voice 17: Thank you.

[1:22:52] Voice 17: I have a

[1:22:53] Voice 17: question, though.

[1:22:54] Voice 17: You said I could answer, you would answer all these questions.

[1:22:56] Trustee Fast: I also said 8 o'clock, and I've seen a couple of people leave.

[1:22:59] Trustee Fast: I don't remember that.

[1:23:00] Trustee Fast: And so I would like to move on to the public hearing portion of the meeting.

[1:23:06] Trustee Fast: I

[1:23:07] Voice 17: feel like I've been silenced.

[1:23:08] Voice 17: I have maybe five minutes of questions to ask.

[1:23:13] Trustee Fast: I think I'm going to look at all the people in the room here who've been waiting patiently,

[1:23:18] Trustee Fast: and I'm going to close this portion, the question and answer portion.

[1:23:23] Trustee Fast: Thank you.

[1:23:24] Trustee Fast: You've been up to speak more than all the other people.

[1:23:27] Trustee Fast: Yes.

[1:23:27] Voice 1: And I appreciate

[1:23:27] Trustee Fast: your good questions.

[1:23:29] Trustee Fast: I'll be back.

[1:23:30] Trustee Fast: And I would like to open the public hearing portion of the meeting.

[1:23:38] Trustee Fast: Okay.

[1:23:39] Trustee Fast: Okay, so I'm going to read from a formal script now, because what we've done here is kind of set the stage for this formal element that BC, the province of BC requires to have a public hearing.

[1:23:53] Trustee Fast: So I'm going to go into this funny text here.

[1:23:56] Trustee Fast: So if you don't mind, here we go.

[1:24:00] Trustee Fast: The public hearing for proposed bylaws, whoops, yes, so I'm opening the public hearing.

[1:24:05] Trustee Fast: the public hearing for proposed bylaws 241 242 and 243 is now open I wish to

[1:24:12] Trustee Fast: welcome everybody again in attendance and acknowledge that we're meeting in

[1:24:17] Trustee Fast: the territory the Coast Salish people my name is trustees well and fast I'm the

[1:24:21] Trustee Fast: chair of the Denman Island local trust committee and I'd like to introduce

[1:24:24] Trustee Fast: again Denman Island local trust local trustees Laura Bushaken and David

[1:24:31] Trustee Fast: Critchley and of course these are the stats that are with us today Islands

[1:24:37] Trustee Fast: Trust planner Sonia Zupanets and recorder Vicky Bachman so we're going to

[1:24:45] Trustee Fast: I'm just going to give this a little opening statement here we're going to

[1:24:49] Trustee Fast: open this for one hour so I've got a number of people in the room I'm going

[1:24:54] Trustee Fast: to try and keep everybody to two minutes if you could help us and this way we we

[1:25:00] Trustee Fast: We want to hear everybody's submissions, or you can write them down.

[1:25:03] Trustee Fast: There's forms at the back, and you can put them in the little box.

[1:25:07] Trustee Fast: This public hearing is being convened pursuant to Section 465 of the Local Government Act

[1:25:13] Trustee Fast: in order to consider proposed bylaw number 241, cited as the Denman Island Official Community Plan 2008,

[1:25:20] Trustee Fast: amendment number 1, 2021.

[1:25:22] Trustee Fast: 2021. Proposed By-law 242, cited as Denman Island Land Use By-law 2008, Amendment No. 1, 2021.

[1:25:33] Trustee Fast: And Proposed By-law 243, cited as Denman Island Housing Agreement, By-law No. 243, 2021. All

[1:25:43] Trustee Fast: persons who believe that their interest in property is affected by the proposed by-laws

[1:25:47] Trustee Fast: will be given a reasonable opportunity to be heard or to present written submissions respecting

[1:25:51] Trustee Fast: matters contained in the proposed bylaws. Those wishing to speak should commence

[1:25:55] Trustee Fast: their presentation by clearly stating their name. Members of the local trust

[1:26:00] Trustee Fast: committee may, if they wish, ask questions of you following your presentation.

[1:26:04] Trustee Fast: However, the main function of the local trust committee members is to listen to

[1:26:08] Trustee Fast: the views of the public. It's not the function of the committee

[1:26:12] Trustee Fast: members to debate the merits of the proposed bylaws with individual citizens.

[1:26:16] Trustee Fast: So everyone will be given a reasonable opportunity to be heard. I'll remind

[1:26:22] Trustee Fast: everybody that the meeting is being recorded. Be heard and none should feel

[1:26:28] Trustee Fast: discouraged from presenting your views. In considering the proposed

[1:26:34] Trustee Fast: bylaws, the Local Trust Committee has received documents which might influence

[1:26:37] Trustee Fast: its decision. These documents, like the plans and things that have been spoken

[1:26:42] Trustee Fast: about are available for review during the hearing and that big binder at the

[1:26:47] Trustee Fast: back of the room and in it at the website if you're using an electronic

[1:26:52] Trustee Fast: device written submissions must be received by the local trust committee

[1:26:57] Trustee Fast: before the close of the hearing tonight your submission can also be emailed if

[1:27:03] Trustee Fast: you don't want to write it to North pH sub as in North public hearing

[1:27:11] Trustee Fast: submission, northphsub at islandstrust.bc.ca. Your final opportunity to

[1:27:17] Trustee Fast: comment on the proposed bylaws is during this hearing, as members of the Local

[1:27:21] Trustee Fast: Trust Committee may not receive further submissions, nor discuss the proposed

[1:27:24] Trustee Fast: bylaw with the public after the close of the hearing. After this public hearing is

[1:27:29] Trustee Fast: concluded, the Local Trust Committee may, without further notice, make whatever

[1:27:32] Trustee Fast: decision it deems proper with respect to the bylaws that are the subject of the

[1:27:36] Trustee Fast: the hearing. And so now we're going to move into the part where the planner, Planner Zupanets,

[1:27:44] Trustee Fast: will now summarize the public hearing notice, key points of the bylaw, and the referral

[1:27:49] Trustee Fast: agency responses. Take it away, Sonia.

[1:27:51] Trustee Fast: It's

[1:27:51] Planner Zupanec (probable): a standard verbiage that the copy of the notice was advertised in two consecutive

[1:27:56] Planner Zupanec (probable): editions of the grapevine on May 19th. The notification required has been successfully

[1:28:04] Planner Zupanec (probable): completed. The public hearing binder is located at the back of the room as well as on the

[1:28:09] Planner Zupanec (probable): website for your review of all documents again to summarize the purpose of proposed bylaw number 241

[1:28:20] Planner Zupanec (probable): if adopted is to amend your official community plan to enable the transfer of density from one

[1:28:25] Planner Zupanec (probable): parcel to another for the purposes of enabling the multi-family affordable housing proposed to receive

[1:28:31] Planner Zupanec (probable): require energy step code compliance for new dwellings as a result of rezoning or density

[1:28:36] Planner Zupanec (probable): transfer and allow for geographically specific revisions to redesignate the receiver partial

[1:28:42] Planner Zupanec (probable): from commercial to residential for affordable housing and re-designate the

[1:28:46] Planner Zupanec (probable): receiver parcels, oh sorry, not to re-designate the receiver parcels. So bylaw number 242 if

[1:28:55] Planner Zupanec (probable): adopted would amend the donor parcel to reduce the maximum permitted density

[1:28:59] Planner Zupanec (probable): from seven dwellings to four and increase the Dane's Rose lots from two to

[1:29:05] Planner Zupanec (probable): five and amend the affordable housing den and green parcel to a site-specific

[1:29:11] Planner Zupanec (probable): affordable housing are one zone. The bylaws were referred to one adjacent local trust committee, which was Hornby Island, the three regional agencies, three non-agencies and 17 First Nations, and the referral responses are contained in the public hearing binder. There were no concerns from the Comox Valley Regional District or the Hornby Island Local Trust Committee.

[1:29:34] Planner Zupanec (probable): decided to defer comment to Comox. There was no particular comment from Island Health as they are under current application, and there were a number of specific referral comments from the Denman Conservancy that the local trust committee did consider.

[1:29:53] Trustee Fast: Thank you very much. And now, oops sorry, I was checking on the details.

[1:30:00] Trustee Fast: so what had to happen next sorry so now we're going to open it to the public and

[1:30:05] Trustee Fast: I'd like to ask my fellow trustees is it okay to do it like we've been doing it

[1:30:10] Trustee Fast: with the hands up yeah

[1:30:12] Voice 5: time is so tight it's a little faster if people say line

[1:30:17] Voice 5: up three at a time for the mic so when you see that there's two you come get

[1:30:22] Voice 1: there and then that

[1:30:22] Voice 5: saves the walking back and forth and if you have an

[1:30:25] Voice 5: injury or a health issue and getting up and moving around doesn't work just wave

[1:30:29] Voice 5: leave your hand and we can bring a mic to you.

[1:30:31] Trustee Fast: Very good and I'll use these one two threes and

[1:30:35] Trustee Fast: one more minute two more minute sorry I'm going to leave out the three minutes because I just want

[1:30:42] Trustee Fast: us to keep to two minutes and if we've still got more comment at the end we'll go over probably

[1:30:48] Trustee Fast: till tomorrow morning. So I'm going to submissions can be made this is formal script again made any

[1:30:56] Trustee Fast: time during and until the close of the hearing. Submissions can be emailed to

[1:31:01] Trustee Fast: northphsub at islandstrust.bcd.ca. So I invite the members of the public who

[1:31:06] Trustee Fast: wish to speak to line up and please state your name and prior to making

[1:31:10] Trustee Fast: comments and after your presentation to the LTC the trustees may ask you

[1:31:15] Trustee Fast: questions but they're primarily here to listen to you and and later I will call

[1:31:20] Trustee Fast: three times for more speakers but I'm going to begin. Please go ahead state

[1:31:25] Trustee Fast: State your name and your comments.

[1:31:27] Voice 9: Bill Engelson,

[1:31:29] Voice 9: from the Lundemun Island.

[1:31:31] Voice 9: Both as an individual

[1:31:33] Voice 9: and as chair of the Horme-Demun Community Health Care Society,

[1:31:36] Voice 9: on behalf of the organization that I chair,

[1:31:39] Voice 9: I have submitted letters of support to this project

[1:31:43] Voice 9: going back even before this application,

[1:31:47] Voice 9: the previous one.

[1:31:49] Voice 9: And with the full understanding

[1:31:51] Voice 9: that this island, Horme-Demun Island,

[1:31:54] Voice 9: Both islands require an incredible increase in livable, affordable housing.

[1:32:01] Voice 9: And this project seems to me to meet, you know, a significant aspect of that.

[1:32:08] Voice 9: And I can't, just the delays, the length of time, and the understanding that we are losing people on the island.

[1:32:18] Voice 9: I mean, if you read our Facebook pages, you understand, and if you talk to people in the community,

[1:32:23] Voice 9: we are losing people because we don't have sufficient housing.

[1:32:26] Voice 9: And this project, if it goes ahead, which I strongly urge that it does,

[1:32:34] Voice 9: will at least free up maybe some other housing that already exists,

[1:32:38] Voice 9: and so people can move around and it'll just generate a bit of movement.

[1:32:41] Voice 9: And hopefully it will spur on more housing.

[1:32:46] Voice 9: um you know we we i i'll leave it at that thank you thank

[1:32:51] Trustee Fast: you very much phil okay welcome and

[1:32:56] Trustee Fast: please begin thank

[1:32:57] Voice 12: you my name is david graham i am here in support of the application despite

[1:33:02] Voice 12: the fact that it will it will barely address the current lack of affordable and accessible housing

[1:33:09] Voice 12: on denver island despite the fact that it does reduce the commercial uh land that's available

[1:33:14] Voice 12: although if you read the latest grapevine, there are at least six to seven, perhaps eight, full-time jobs begging.

[1:33:22] Voice 12: So it's not a lack of commercial property that we have, it's a lack of affordable housing for working class people to come to Denman and live here.

[1:33:30] Voice 12: I was lucky enough to do that. So I do, it's unfortunate that an outside funder will have some input as to the number of affordable units,

[1:33:43] Voice 12: unlike the coho intentional community which was self-funded they did all of

[1:33:48] Voice 12: that without any government money but I always like to see that as a

[1:33:51] Voice 12: self-initiated project despite all of those despise I'm still in favor of this

[1:33:56] Voice 12: application and I certainly hope that it proceeds thank you thank

[1:34:00] Trustee Fast: you very much

[1:34:01] Trustee Fast: next please come up

[1:34:03] Voice 14: my

[1:34:04] Trustee Fast: name is John

[1:34:04] Voice 14: Kerr I certainly support Devin Green's

[1:34:10] Voice 14: application i'd just like to remind the trust though that the previous owners of the land

[1:34:17] Voice 14: when they had kaleidoscope market glenn and gene mcmillan they tried to subdivide off the only

[1:34:23] parcel a short piece of residential and it was turned down by the ministry of environmental

[1:34:31] Voice 14: health for the lack of natural for indeed required four feet of natural soil also like to remind you

[1:34:39] Voice 14: of the elder housing project that was a piece of land that was going to be gifted to the community

[1:34:45] Voice 14: with no strings attached unfortunately it was uh couldn't happen again for the same reason

[1:34:51] Voice 14: there is not four feet of natural soils available but uh that said it's uh i'm just really sad and

[1:35:00] Voice 14: sick and unfortunately that there's so many strings attached and what's going on in corporate

[1:35:06] Voice 14: So, anyways, but I hope Denman Green gets replaced with a little fewer, less conditions.

[1:35:13] Voice 14: Thank you.

[1:35:14] Voice 22: Thank you very much.

[1:35:18] Voice 22: Next.

[1:35:19] Trustee Fast: My

[1:35:20] Voice 2: name is Edward Friesen.

[1:35:21] Voice 2: I'm just here to support this application.

[1:35:24] Voice 2: I'm really hoping that the Islanders Trust can approve this and that we can have some

[1:35:29] Voice 2: movement on affordable housing on Denman Island.

[1:35:32] Voice 22: Thank you very much.

[1:35:34] Voice 22: Any other speakers?

[1:35:42] Trustee Fast: If anybody would like to speak, please come up to the mic and

[1:35:50] Voice 3: say your name.

[1:35:51] Voice 3: I'm Tammy Willis, and I'd like to strongly speak in favor of this application.

[1:35:58] Voice 3: I've lived on Denman, been associated with Denman for many, many years,

[1:36:03] Voice 3: and the lack of affordable housing is not a community issue.

[1:36:08] Voice 3: But it's much, much worse now, much, much worse.

[1:36:12] Voice 3: And we must, we

[1:36:15] Voice 3: simply must do everything possible to see people well-housed,

[1:36:21] Voice 3: So let's do

[1:36:23] Voice 3: it. And let's not have so many obstacles in the way that it takes years to make this happen. Please.

[1:36:32] Voice 3: Thank

[1:36:32] Trustee Fast: you. Say your name.

[1:36:39] Trustee Fast: Ron

[1:36:41] Voice 17: Sokolski. I'll just read a portion, you're saying two minutes, of something I'm about to give to the LTC.

[1:36:55] Voice 17: And it addresses this issue of affordability from a different point of view than we've been talking about so far.

[1:37:07] Voice 17: As a matter of public policy principle, I'm always wary of developer-driven affordable housing

[1:37:15] Voice 17: that offer personally profitable solutions to problems of political, economic, and social inequality.

[1:37:23] Voice 17: quality this principle is especially true in the case of the affordable housing crisis on island

[1:37:31] Voice 17: which developers and realtors have helped to create and perpetuate in the first place as

[1:37:38] Voice 17: minimum compensation compensation for all the windfall profits that they have relentlessly

[1:37:45] Voice 17: sucked out of this island especially lately with the inflated housing crisis

[1:37:50] Voice 17: in the red-hot Comox Valley real estate market in recent years,

[1:37:55] Voice 17: let's demand that they really put their money where their mouth is

[1:37:59] Voice 17: by giving the community that downtown piece of land for affordable housing at no cost whatsoever

[1:38:06] Voice 17: and with no density transfer strings or hidden real estate investment ploys attached.

[1:38:13] Voice 17: If a developer or realtor team that DHA represents agree to do so,

[1:38:20] Voice 17: it would at least constitute a small beginning

[1:38:23] Voice 17: towards providing the full reparations owed

[1:38:27] Voice 17: to the unhoused of our community

[1:38:30] Voice 17: by dint of the unofficial policy-making role

[1:38:34] Voice 17: of real estate and development professionals

[1:38:37] Voice 17: in policing the ability of the poor to live here

[1:38:41] Voice 17: and ignoring indigenous claims to the land.

[1:38:44] Trustee Fast: Thank you, and if we could keep from doing oppressive

[1:38:48] Trustee Fast: for negative language.

[1:38:51] Voice 17: I would never agree to that and I don't think the LTC should ever enforce that.

[1:38:56] Trustee Fast: Other speakers? Please come forward. Thank you.

[1:38:59] Trustee Fast: Put

[1:39:02] Voice 5: more in the box, that way we'll get.

[1:39:06] Voice 5: Please go ahead.

[1:39:08] Voice 10: I'm a media neighbour, Kirk wrote there. And first I just want to say I didn't hear any

[1:39:13] Voice 10: impressive language in what you were saying. I think we've got to be able to talk about

[1:39:17] Voice 10: capitalism as a community and telling people that they're speaking oppressively when they

[1:39:21] Voice 10: talk about developers is kind of across the pit but that said okay um i'm fully supportive of the

[1:39:29] Voice 10: of the project i think we need affordable housing but only pointed i heard mr um

[1:39:37] Voice 10: simon uh speak about how it would housing would be assigned people of most need and i

[1:39:43] Voice 10: I know, I look at Comox Valley criteria and for three-bedroom it's 61,000, for two-bedroom, 49,000, and for one-bedroom, 39,000.

[1:39:56] Voice 10: So I think 61,000 probably would fit a large number, a large percentage of the population on Denver.

[1:40:02] Voice 10: And I think that those numbers are not reflective of the most need in the community.

[1:40:11] Voice 10: And I think, I don't know if there's something that can be added to the restrictive covenant

[1:40:16] Voice 10: that said that where possible within the strictures imposed by the funding body, people with most

[1:40:23] Voice 10: need will be, the housing can be provided to them.

[1:40:26] Voice 10: And I think BC Housing has several different levels of housing, there's different types

[1:40:32] Voice 10: of housing they fund, and it seems like the one that, without it being stated clearly

[1:40:38] Voice 10: that what's being proposed is the one that's closest to market and I

[1:40:42] Voice 10: understand there's

[1:40:43] Voice 10: reasons for that but there is alternatives and I don't think

[1:40:48] Voice 10: that that's been put forward in a clear way by the proponents and I understand that

[1:40:55] Voice 10: that's probably to preserve flexibility but there is alternatives and I think

[1:41:01] Voice 10: that it wouldn't be a big change to have the Covenant speak to the need to house

[1:41:06] Voice 10: people that are so I would ask that to be added if that's feasible this thank

[1:41:13] Voice 10: you any

[1:41:18] Trustee Fast: more speakers please feel free to come up and and and speak to us we're

[1:41:27] Trustee Fast: here good and if you could please just line up behind then we don't have to

[1:41:37] Trustee Fast: then we can get as many speakers in please go ahead it's

[1:41:41] Voice 11: I'm Charles King

[1:41:42] Voice 11: I'm part of an adjacent property to the Danes Road receiving properties that are part of the by-law.

[1:41:49] Voice 11: I did make a written submission which goes more at length into my concerns.

[1:41:56] Voice 11: I just wanted to reiterate the largest overall concern that I have is the way this whole by-law is structured

[1:42:04] Voice 11: as a two completely separate and in my mind diametrically opposed proposals one

[1:42:14] Voice 11: giving concessions to a proponent for Denman Green to allow extra density for

[1:42:20] Voice 11: affordable housing but it seems it's only being accepted or proposed on the

[1:42:28] Voice 11: basis that there is a separate proposal to move densities from one market

[1:42:33] Voice 11: property to another set of market properties at full market value

[1:42:38] Voice 11: increasing the value of those densities to the level that they are counter to

[1:42:45] Voice 11: the fundamental basis on which the Islands Trust was generated back in 1974

[1:42:51] Voice 11: to protect the Gulf Islands from excessive high density development so by

[1:42:58] Voice 11: by accepting the balance of the density transfer

[1:43:02] Voice 11: in order for affordable housing,

[1:43:04] Voice 11: going counter to the whole fundamental principle

[1:43:07] Voice 11: of the audience trust to prevent excess density.

[1:43:10] Voice 22: Thank you very much.

[1:43:15] Voice 4: My name is Rhian De Silva.

[1:43:18] Voice 4: In my 25 years as a resident of Denman Island,

[1:43:22] Voice 4: I've been to quite a few public meetings,

[1:43:26] Voice 4: public hearings here on Denman about housing people really like to have all

[1:43:34] Voice 4: the questions answered I understand why we think that we need to have all the

[1:43:39] Voice 4: contingencies taken care of before we can move forward and that unfortunately

[1:43:43] Voice 4: has kept us as a community from meeting the need that we know we have and I

[1:43:50] Voice 4: would like us to be brave I would like us to really come together we have to

[1:43:56] Voice 4: batten down the hatches we know there's storms coming we're people of this island we're people

[1:44:01] Voice 4: of the land and we need to make sure everyone's safe at home so that together we can weather the

[1:44:07] Voice 4: storms that are coming this project will provide housing for people who need housing and for people

[1:44:14] Voice 4: who denman island need we need our working class we need our artists we need our single parents

[1:44:23] Voice 4: we need our people who may be struggling with mental health challenges we need people to be

[1:44:29] Voice 4: safe at home and we may not get all our questions answered it may be scary let's take a deep breath

[1:44:35] Voice 4: let's be brave let's make home may everybody be safe at home that's my prayer thank you

[1:44:45] Trustee Fast: any more speakers here i am pressing buttons getting it going again my timer come on up

[1:44:55] Trustee Fast: that's great i'm

[1:45:01] Voice 18: c urquhart and um i happen to be the liaison between the denman housing

[1:45:08] Voice 18: association and the potential renters of this um proposed project um and sorry

[1:45:17] Voice 18: i just want to say that um i've looked each one of these people in the eyes all the people who

[1:45:26] Voice 18: actually need housing on this island who are some of them are really desperate

[1:45:30] Voice 18: you know desperate situations unhealthy living conditions it's unacceptable I

[1:45:37] Voice 18: think as a community that we're allowing this to perpetuate and I'm just begging

[1:45:42] Voice 18: you to do everything in your power to help this project move forward and then

[1:45:47] Voice 18: we can get on with the next one because we need even more housing thank you

[1:45:51] Voice 18: Thank

[1:45:52] Voice 22: you very much.

[1:45:56] Trustee Fast: Thanks everybody for bearing with my asking people not to applaud and things like that, because there might be some other voices and we want to hear everybody's voices welcome.

[1:46:06] Trustee Fast: Is there, other people are not lining up behind the microphone here, so I'm wondering, are there anybody

[1:46:14] Trustee Fast: else who wants to speak? Because I'm going to go, come on up.

[1:46:29] Trustee Fast: I'm

[1:46:44] Voice 8: a homeowner on this island, and I thought I'd tell a bit of a personal story

[1:46:49] Voice 8: about needing housing when I was 17.

[1:46:52] Voice 8: So I left on my bicycle, and I rode away into the sunset.

[1:46:57] Voice 8: I had $500.

[1:47:00] Voice 8: Government helped me with getting housing.

[1:47:03] Voice 8: housing. First I lived in a tent, but at some point I did get help with getting housing

[1:47:08] Voice 8: and so I really, you know, for my heart to support this project, you know, I just love

[1:47:14] Voice 8: the idea that there could be 20 more units, you know, on

[1:47:17] Voice 8: this island that would provide

[1:47:19] Voice 8: housing. And I love the idea that it's here that you can walk to the grocery store, walk

[1:47:25] Voice 8: to the school. It seems like a very good location. Thank you.

[1:47:30] Voice 8: Thank

[1:47:31] Voice 22: you very much.

[1:47:36] Voice 5: If there's time, we could get the end of Ron's submission.

[1:47:41] Trustee Fast: I think that would be a good idea.

[1:47:44] Trustee Fast: I've been wanting to see if there are new people, but perhaps, Ron, if you've got more,

[1:47:50] Trustee Fast: it looks like we've got a pause in the people who are going to speak.

[1:47:56] Voice 1: Come on up.

[1:48:05] Trustee Fast: Another two minutes.

[1:48:06] Trustee Fast: Go ahead.

[1:48:07] Voice 17: Yeah, it won't take two minutes.

[1:48:09] Voice 17: I'm left off.

[1:48:14] Voice 17: You cut me off at a certain point, so I'll try to do the...

[1:48:27] Voice 12: You're talking about how we should pay reparations up there.

[1:48:30] Voice 17: Yeah.

[1:48:32] Voice 17: It would at least constitute a small beginning

[1:48:35] Voice 17: for providing the full reparations owed

[1:48:39] Voice 17: to the unhoused of our community and the ill-housed

[1:48:44] Voice 17: and the precariously housed by dint

[1:48:46] Voice 17: of the unofficial policy-making rule of real estate

[1:48:51] Voice 17: and development professionals, increasing

[1:48:54] Voice 17: the ability of the poor to live here

[1:48:56] Voice 17: and ignoring indigenous claims to the land,

[1:49:00] Voice 17: that's where I got cut off, interestingly enough,

[1:49:03] Voice 17: while gilding the lily on behalf of the rich.

[1:49:07] Voice 17: Instead of leaving housing affordability matters

[1:49:11] Voice 17: exclusively in the hands of well-heeled politicians,

[1:49:16] Voice 17: planners, and provincial bureaucrats,

[1:49:19] Voice 17: we can support autonomous projects

[1:49:22] Voice 17: initiated by those in need

[1:49:24] Voice 17: rather than on their behalf. Imagine if we demanded that the developer

[1:49:31] Voice 17: realtor lobby do more for this community than posing as saviors while acting like

[1:49:38] Voice 17: parasites. Rather than mindlessly kissing the feet of such exploitive profiteers

[1:49:45] Voice 17: while hailing them as our saviors, it's time to throw the stifling weight of

[1:49:51] Voice 17: their feet off our necks and hold the feet of all public officials to the fire

[1:49:59] Voice 17: in doing so thank you very

[1:50:02] Trustee Fast: much okay anybody else I'm going to go into the

[1:50:11] Trustee Fast: part where I ask and have long pauses this is formally required so I'm going

[1:50:17] Trustee Fast: to say since there's no more speakers at the microphone we'll now proceed to

[1:50:24] Trustee Fast: close the public hearing. Please note after the public hearing closes the

[1:50:29] Trustee Fast: local trust committee will no longer be able to receive public submissions prior

[1:50:34] Trustee Fast: to making a decision. Asking once for any more speakers. Second time for any more

[1:50:54] Trustee Fast: speakers. It says 10 seconds. Okay. Any more speakers? This is the final

[1:51:22] Trustee Fast: opportunity for you to hand in a written submission to the local trust committee

[1:51:29] Trustee Fast: and once the public hearing is closed no additional submissions will be accepted

[1:51:34] Trustee Fast: and so it's closed so now we are pleased to be advised that we're now in the

[1:51:43] Trustee Fast: post public hearing stage of the legislative review for proposed bylaws

[1:51:47] Trustee Fast: 241 242 and 243 the Denman Island local trust committee can now no longer

[1:51:53] Trustee Fast: or receive information pertaining to the proposed bylaws.

[1:51:57] Trustee Fast: However, you can still submit any outstanding questions and comments

[1:52:01] Trustee Fast: directly to Planner Zupanets.

[1:52:03] Trustee Fast: The Local Trust Committee may give further readings to the bylaw

[1:52:07] Trustee Fast: or defeat the bylaw or make minor adjustments

[1:52:10] Trustee Fast: that do not affect the use or density without further notice or hearings.

[1:52:17] Trustee Fast: And that's the end of that.

[1:52:23] Trustee Fast: and I think I'll just go over here back to the special agenda and just say now

[1:52:31] Trustee Fast: that I can I have a motion to adjourn

[1:52:33] Voice 2: okay

[1:52:34] Trustee Fast: seconded okay though all those in

[1:52:37] Trustee Fast: favor thank you the public hearing is adjourned

[1:52:41] Trustee Fast: Thank you very much, everybody, for your input, and thank you, applicants.

[1:52:48] Trustee Fast: Okay, so we've got some here that we need to read.

[1:54:38] Trustee Fast: I've got to stop the recording.

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 1 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
May 30, 2022 
 
Denman Island Local Trust Committee 
Minutes of Special Meeting 
 
Date:  
Location:  
May 30, 2022 
Denman Island Community Hall 
1196 Northwest Road, Denman Island, BC  
 
Members Present: Sue Ellen Fast, Chair 
 David Critchley, Local Trustee 
 Laura Busheikin, Local Trustee 
  
Staff Present: Sonja Zupanec, Island Planner 
 Vicky Bockman, Recorder 
  
Others Present: Approximately thirty-five (35) members of the public 
1. CALL TO ORDER 
“Please note, the order of agenda items may be modified during the meeting. Times are provided 
for convenience only and are subject to change.” 
Chair Fast called the meeting to order at 6:30 pm.  She welcomed the public and acknowledged 
that the meeting was being held in territory of the Coast Salish First Nations. She introduced 
Local Trustees, staff and recorder and advised that the meeting is being recorded and will be 
posted for viewing on the Islands Trust website. 
2. COMMUNITY INFORMATION MEETING - Denman Housing Association (DHA) - DE-RZ-2021.1 
(Denman Green) 
By general consent the agenda was approved as presented. 
2.1 Planner Presentation 
Planner Zupanec reported that the purpose of this Community Information Meeting 
(CIM) is to review with the community all the main elements of the proposed bylaw 
changes to enable the Denman Housing Association’s Denman Green project. She 
advised that this meeting is intended to provide information needed for community 
members to be able to speak at the Public Hearing which will follow, and will include a 
question and answer session.  
The presentation provided an overview of the density transfers, Denman Green 
proposal, next steps, changes to the Official Community Plan (OCP) and Land Use Bylaw 
(LUB); Housing Agreement Bylaw, and Restrictive Covenant; potable water and 
wastewater plans, and will be available on the Islands Trust website for viewing. 
2.1.1 Bylaw Nos. 241, 242 and 243 
Summary of Changes to Bylaw No. 241(OCP) 

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 2 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
May 30, 2022 
New policies in support of: 
 affordable rental  housing; 
 rental tenure housing being established; 
 new dwellings complying with BC Energy Step Code requirements; 
 reducing the size of the Commercial Development Permit Area. 
Summary of Changes to Bylaw No. 242 (LUB) 
 new Affordable Housing zone – R4(1) that regulates siting, size, use, density, 
parking, etc.; 
 new site specific R2(7) zone for the Woodham Road parcel to decrease 
density; 
 new site specific R2(8) zone for the Danes Road parcels to increase density. 
Summary of Bylaw No. 243 (Housing Agreement Bylaw) 
 construct only duplexes, triplexes or quadplexes; 
 be constructed to meet BC Energy Step Code Level 2 efficiency standards; 
 be constructed with a Type 3 advanced sewage treatment system; 
 rent the 20 units to qualified occupants at an affordable rate; 
 follow a tenant selection procedure; 
 require annual reporting to the Islands Trust.  
2.1.2 Draft Covenant 
The Restrictive Covenant would require DHA to: 
 install fencing along shared interior lot lines; 
 install a datalogger in the well, take readings, and submit to Islands Trust 
annually; 
 construct all dwellings to a minimum of Step 2 of Energy Step Code. 
2.2 Question and Answer Session 
 Will the tenants be required to have special training to minimize use of water and 
wastewater sewage? 
o The project will have low flow fixtures and will reuse grey water for toilet 
flushing to save water; tenants will generally receive education on how to use 
water sparingly. 
 Why is the transfer of densities from Woodham Road to Danes Road a part of the 
Denman Green project? 
o This is the primary mechanism for the parcel on Kirk Road to be transferred to 
DHA and is the proposal that has come from the applicants for  
consideration. 
 Who is the proponent and who are the people involved in this application? 
o DHA-Denman Green affordable housing project, H. Nielsen-Kirk Road subdivided 
0.28 ha lot and Danes Road lots, N. Snyder-Woodham Road lot. 
 Can the subdivided 0.28 ha lot on Kirk Road be used for housing? Has the 
subdivision been approved? 
o The lot is zoned R1 residential and is permitted one dwelling. The subdivision is 
in the final stages with the Ministry of Transportation responsible for the 

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 3 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
May 30, 2022 
subdivision approval. As a part of the process they refer the application to 
multiple agencies to approve elements such as water and septic. 
 Will any properties zoned commercial be replaced downtown to restore the balance 
since this proposal removes a commercially zoned property from downtown area 
and replaces it with residential?  
o No additional commercial land is contemplated with this application. The need 
to develop affordable housing has been considered a priority over the loss of a 
commercial property. A rezoning application would be necessary to enable 
another commercially zoned property. 
 Who will be in control of Denman Green tenant selection? 
o This Housing Agreement forms the basis of the tenant key selection criteria, 
regardless of the funding source. Eligibility conditions are proposed to include 
factors such as time of residence on Denman Island, membership in a First 
Nation band with ties to Denman Island, work history, residential situation, if 
there are children. 
 Will there be an opportunity in the future to address any concerns about the 
Denman Green well extraction affecting the aquifer and the testing conditions 
involving the Kir-Nel water system? 
o The water license application is with the Province now; in that process they will 
be reviewing impact on adjacent water users. Concerns might be expressed to 
the water licensing agency before a final decision is made. A professional 
hydrogeologist was engaged by DHA to conduct a review of the impact of the 
well on pressure or yield on adjacent properties with no concern expressed. 
Data was also reviewed by a Ministry hydrogeologist. 
 Why is submission of the datalogger data to the Islands Trust being required? 
o This is for information purposes and for oversight that may not be provided by 
the Province, in this case, of multiple densities on a single lot. The intent is to 
assure the community that if there is a problem, it would be caught and 
addressed early. 
 Are there any bylaw restrictions to prohibit transfer of densities for a financial gain 
to an individual or an entity offering community benefit, as may be the case in this 
proposal?  
o This is not within the scope of a local government’s rezoning 
consideration. DHA is a not-for-profit entity and board members could 
not individually profit. 
 What are the financial criteria for tenant eligibility in the affordable housing? Is it 
possible to designate a certain percentage of the units for lower income applicants? 
Will there be some units priced at market rental rates?  
o Housing funders determine on a case-by-case basis how best to achieve their 
objective of the highest number of units built for the lowest income residents. 
Putting a requirement on the percentage of units for lower income residents 
might restrict the necessary flexibility. Market rentals are needed to help 
subsidize the more affordable units. The range of affordability will be 
determined by the cost to build the units and the size of the mortgage that will 
be required. 
 Has the Islands Trust discussed the need for affordable housing with potential 
tenants to balance concerns with need? 

ADOPTED 
Denman Island  ADOPTED 4 
Local Trust Committee Special Meeting Minutes 
May 30, 2022 
o There have been several Community Information Meetings on this proposal, 
and Local Trustees have taken into consideration the Housing Needs 
Assessment, applicant’s reports, Advisory Planning Commission referral and 
responses from referral agencies.  
 If this application is not approved, what plans are there to meet the known need of 
housing on Denman Island? 
o Outside of this application, the Local Trust Committee (LTC) has initiated 
a Housing Review Project to create more flexible housing options through 
the OCP and LUB. 
 Is this the final opportunity to provide input on the bylaws or this project? 
o After the Public Hearing that follows this CIM, input about this entire application 
can be directed to staff however not to Trustees. 
 Has any analysis been done on the Danes Road lots to demonstrate sufficient 
quantity and quality of water for those lots to justify further subdivision? 
o The applicant was asked to provide sufficient evidence of adequate water and 
sewage disposal capacity to support an increase in density and was able to 
demonstrate sufficient minimum water requirements for quality and quantity. 
The subdivision process will require the applicant to provide sufficient evidence 
to the approving officer at that time. 
 If there is a difference in the agreement between the funding agency and DHA in 
terms of the affordable units, would that have to come back to the LTC for 
approval? 
o Any change in the Housing Agreement requires the applicant to come back to 
the LTC to amend the Bylaw. 
3. PUBLIC HEARING - BYLAW NOS. 241, 242 and 243 
Bylaw No. 241 (Official Community Plan (OCP)), Bylaw No. 242 (Land Use Bylaw (LUB)) and 
Bylaw No. 243 (Housing Agreement (HA)) 
A Public Hearing on Bylaw Nos. 241, 242, and 243 will follow this meeting. 
4. ADJOURNMENT 
By general consent the meeting was adjourned at 8:00 pm. 
 
_________________________ 
Sue Ellen Fast, Chair 
Certified Correct: 
 
 
_________________________ 
Vicky Bockman, Recorder