Islands Trust Council regular meeting, January 12, 2023

[0:00:00] Voice 9: okay well what do you say should we proceed all

[0:00:08] Voice 3: right let's do it um happy new year to you all

[0:00:12] Voice 3: i i wish you all a fantastic 2023 um hopefully the year started well for you and you had a good

[0:00:18] Voice 3: uh a good break if you did get one um certainly um i did and i'm really thrilled to be back here

[0:00:24] Voice 3: speaking with you being back at work now for a couple of weeks and uh and working towards

[0:00:30] Voice 3: getting all our committees up and rolling and of course working towards a significant Trust

[0:00:35] Voice 3: Council meeting in March. That being said, tonight is a gathering of Trust Council. It is not an

[0:00:41] Voice 3: official meeting. This is an educational information session and we're just really

[0:00:47] Voice 3: picking up some of the orientation themes that we want to complete, you know, at the start of the

[0:00:51] Voice 3: term so that we all start off well and with a common understanding of matters. So I'm planning

[0:00:57] Voice 3: on just doing just doing an hour you know just in the post uh the post dinner hour and certainly

[0:01:04] Voice 3: i'm more than willing to do this again and you'll see that we don't have a complete

[0:01:09] Voice 3: listing of trustees but we're going to write those names down and i'll follow up with them

[0:01:14] Voice 3: and i'll make sure that they get this information and all that kind of thing as well also we're

[0:01:19] Voice 3: recording um and lori's still with us here she's in the background and lori i'd appreciate it if

[0:01:25] Voice 3: we have to parking lot an issue or two um if you just make a note to that effect and and we'll pick

[0:01:31] Voice 3: it up again and and move forward how does that

[0:01:33] Voice 7: sound absolutely and

[0:01:35] Voice 3: do i have your agreement

[0:01:36] Voice 3: then to proceed with the meeting and and go forward all right okay so uh we're gonna do this

[0:01:44] Voice 3: on the on the good old powerpoint version and i'm gonna share screen here just bear with me and here

[0:01:55] Voice 10: here I go. And so what are you all seeing?

[0:02:07] Voice 8: The template. And

[0:02:09] Voice 3: how about now? Perfect. Full screen.

[0:02:12] Voice 3: Full screen. So fantastic. We're going to spend about 45 minutes to an hour talking about what I

[0:02:18] Voice 3: think are really important elements of the work that you're doing and the work we're going to do

[0:02:21] Voice 3: together and what you do with community. And that is around open meetings, conflict of interest,

[0:02:26] Voice 3: and freedom of information and if we have the time we'll just tap into some of the legal

[0:02:35] Voice 3: just structures that we have the islands trust and how we manage those as well

[0:02:41] Voice 3: uh out of course um we will start our meeting with our acknowledging our acknowledgement that

[0:02:47] Voice 3: the islands trust area is located within the treaty and territorial lands um throughout the

[0:02:52] Voice 3: the Salish Sea of these various nations.

[0:02:55] Voice 3: We acknowledge the Indigenous people

[0:02:57] Voice 3: living on their islands,

[0:02:58] Voice 3: their kinship ties and connections to this place.

[0:03:03] Voice 3: So we'll talk open meetings,

[0:03:04] Voice 3: conflict of interest and bias,

[0:03:06] Voice 3: freedom of information,

[0:03:07] Voice 3: a bit on records and correspondence,

[0:03:09] Voice 3: and some legal advice.

[0:03:11] Voice 3: And really this presentation is intended

[0:03:13] Voice 3: to help you steer clear some of the common pitfalls

[0:03:16] Voice 3: that can range from just merely irritating

[0:03:19] Voice 3: to potentially somewhat serious.

[0:03:21] Voice 3: and of course we won't be able to be comprehensive in the time allowed or really with just trying to

[0:03:28] Voice 3: get everyone on the same level of understanding but we will follow this up i will make a prediction

[0:03:34] Voice 3: however it is these areas that will crop up over this term time and time again and they they will

[0:03:44] Voice 3: provide challenges to us i am happily or unhappily depending upon your point of view i'm often the

[0:03:51] Voice 3: the person that's tasked with getting in touch with you if one of these items needs to be addressed.

[0:03:56] Voice 3: I ask for your patience and tolerance as I do that. It's not a fun part of the job, but I will

[0:04:01] Voice 3: do it and try and work us through any issues that come about. And part of this is just developing

[0:04:09] Voice 3: that full understanding. The other thing here is, like much of what we do, there isn't a thin,

[0:04:17] Voice 3: thin direct red line that we can measure everything against there's subtleties to this

[0:04:21] Voice 3: and often there's two principles that collide and at least in this case in my experience with

[0:04:29] Voice 3: the open meeting rule and conflict of interest there's the notion of transparency on the one hand

[0:04:35] Voice 3: and common sense and democracy on the other meaning legislation and policy defaults to

[0:04:41] Voice 3: transparency in this day and age um that's what a good practice is um how it presents itself

[0:04:48] Voice 3: but quite often when it's applied it seems in some instances foolish or

[0:04:57] Voice 3: insincere in some ways and it doesn't make you know common sense and we just have to work through

[0:05:01] Voice 3: those so open meetings uh the islands trust regulation makes uh part four of the community

[0:05:09] Voice 3: a charter apply to all trust bodies and in essence all meetings of a local government

[0:05:15] Voice 3: including in this case the Allens Trust elected and appointed bodies must be open to the public

[0:05:21] Voice 3: as a general rule and this requirement is intended to be applied not narrowly but broadly

[0:05:27] Voice 3: with the principle of openness transparency and accountability and that's section 89.1

[0:05:32] Voice 3: of the community charter. And as you can appreciate, probably this came of a history

[0:05:40] Voice 3: over the last 150 years of certain people, perhaps privileged, perhaps not, but in positions of power

[0:05:47] Voice 3: who would make decisions in a, either without full transparency or full accountability for

[0:05:55] Voice 3: some of those decisions. And over time, we've had the application of further rules that enhance

[0:06:02] Voice 3: transparency and the latest amendment of the charter in 2003 brought in the rules we have

[0:06:07] Voice 3: today. So we're going to talk about when must a meeting be closed to the public as well and

[0:06:14] Voice 3: a couple other items. So there's a couple different, as I said, this isn't explicit.

[0:06:23] Voice 3: Certainly if you go into the ministry's webpage, they tend to be very discreet. All meetings of

[0:06:29] Voice 3: local government elected and appointed bodies must be open to the public as a general rule

[0:06:33] Voice 3: and as a consequence um for instance council committees of the islands trust

[0:06:37] Voice 3: have been included in our policies as bodies that are publicly available and operate on an open

[0:06:45] Voice 3: meeting basis and that this requirements intend to be applied broadly with as you see at the end

[0:06:51] Voice 3: of the sentence court decisions have been made about the types of gatherings considered to

[0:06:56] Voice 3: constitute a meeting and in general gatherings where elected members could be seen to be making

[0:07:00] Voice 3: decisions constitute a meeting those of us in local government often follow there's a great

[0:07:09] Voice 3: pdf put out by the ombudsperson's office that describes the open meeting process i believe

[0:07:14] Voice 3: we've included it in your kit and that's a good reference place it's a slightly softer look

[0:07:19] Voice 3: um compared to the ministry offering so then we ask ourselves because we live in the uh a very

[0:07:28] Voice 3: practical world what is a meeting and what is a gathering because you will be faced with both

[0:07:35] Voice 3: a meeting generally is when a quorum of a corporate body in this case a local trust committee

[0:07:43] Voice 3: or the islands trust trust council itself or any committee is present and business matters that

[0:07:50] Voice 3: will lead to a decision or discussed and it's often characterized by having advertisement

[0:07:55] Voice 3: minutes taken and officers present and a gathering tends to be a more unorganized event with no quorum

[0:08:02] Voice 3: and the discussions do not lead to business decisions but between these two polls there

[0:08:08] Voice 3: are a lot of different um variations and i'd be happy if you want if anyone here had a specific

[0:08:14] Voice 3: question as we get to the end of this first 10 minutes and we wanted to run through a couple of

[0:08:19] Voice 3: scenarios will test what's the reasonableness of whether something is a meeting or is it a gathering

[0:08:28] Voice 3: so key elements of a meeting a quorum it takes place at a normal meeting place or

[0:08:34] Voice 3: i would suggest that even an electronic meeting like we're having right now is the islands trust

[0:08:40] Voice 3: normal meeting place as well and that it's under the control of the council of the board

[0:08:46] Voice 3: It tends to be regularly scheduled. Formal procedures are followed. There is often voting and matters discussed would normally form the basis of decisions don't have to be made.

[0:08:59] Voice 3: but if you're fundamentally moving forward ideas that lead to decisions associated with programs

[0:09:05] Voice 3: applications or any type of initiative in a way that moves them forward that would be and would

[0:09:14] Voice 3: result in the application of your authority that would be a meeting so in general the communities

[0:09:20] Voice 3: should know about a meeting and over the last term maybe term and a half we've had a number of

[0:09:26] Voice 3: scenarios where trustees would call a meeting um they wouldn't advertise it um they'd put it out

[0:09:33] Voice 3: on their facebook pages uh you'd end up with 42 people perhaps in someone's backyard or at a

[0:09:41] Voice 3: community center outside and they're talking about the ocp or they're talking about a specific a

[0:09:48] Voice 3: large initiative that would affect the whole community and of course we would we then get

[0:09:54] Voice 3: there's no notice to the public, and it goes out sort of through private means, and then we get

[0:10:02] Voice 3: a substantial number of phone calls. What's happening? How come this is happening?

[0:10:07] Voice 3: We want to have that meeting again. Was that an official meeting where any decisions made?

[0:10:14] Voice 3: So those are the key characteristics of a meeting. A gathering, of which I suggest we're

[0:10:21] Voice 3: we're having one right now is there's no quorum of board council or committee it takes place in

[0:10:29] Voice 3: an location not under the control of the council of the board members it's not regularly scheduled

[0:10:33] Voice 3: it's not formal no voting and those in attendance are gathered strictly to receive information

[0:10:39] Voice 3: or receive training in some way now if you apply our the current meeting that we're having right

[0:10:45] Voice 3: now to these criteria well we do have a quorum i think and this meeting is under our control

[0:10:53] Voice 3: but the other four items um would i think a reasonable person would say are applied this

[0:10:59] Voice 3: isn't regularly scheduled it doesn't follow formal procedures we're not going to be voting if someone

[0:11:05] Voice 3: for instance right now said i move that we do this we would have to stop because that would not be

[0:11:10] Voice 3: appropriate for a private meeting. And those in attendance, generally we're exchanging information

[0:11:16] Voice 3: and receiving training. The good news is that if you're in a situation and your local trust

[0:11:26] Voice 3: committee wants to communicate with your communities, it is extremely easy for you to

[0:11:31] Voice 3: use the tools of the Islands Trust to have such a meeting. We can advertise relatively quickly.

[0:11:37] Voice 3: We know how to organize getting the halls. We know the halls in all of your communities very,

[0:11:42] Voice 3: very well um we some instances staff would be required but other instances they would not be

[0:11:50] Voice 3: and so it's we can be facile here we can we can move it forward if you need to speak to the

[0:11:55] Voice 3: community about something we also had to really work on this muscle through the policy statement

[0:11:59] Voice 3: process of the last term so we've got some relative experience with it of course by now

[0:12:06] Voice 3: you're becoming familiar with um the community charter and closed meetings there's relatively

[0:12:14] Voice 3: few reasons for being able to discuss matters in private. Turns out embarrassment is not one of

[0:12:20] Voice 3: them. It's usually labor or employee relations, personal information about appointees or award

[0:12:27] Voice 3: recipients, offers to provide a gift, acquisition disposition of land or improvements, law

[0:12:35] Voice 3: enforcement, including bylaw enforcement litigation, receipt of advice subject to solicitor

[0:12:41] Voice 3: client privilege and a couple of other topics is set out in section 90. and of course one thing to

[0:12:47] Voice 3: remember is an islands trust body cannot vote on a reading or adoption of a bylaw during a closed

[0:12:53] Voice 3: session that needs to be in a public session members of the trust body may attend a closed

[0:13:00] Voice 3: or in-camera meeting along with any invited municipal officers staff or any other persons

[0:13:05] Voice 3: the body considers necessary i can tell you that that has had a fairly narrow application

[0:13:11] Voice 3: at least in my experience. I have never been in a closed meeting with a member of the public

[0:13:18] Voice 3: in maybe once in 15 or 20 years. For the most part, it's been solicitor-client privilege or

[0:13:26] Voice 3: working through one of these various issues right here. So now, the other thing for closed

[0:13:34] Voice 3: meetings, minutes must be taken and certified for all the meetings and record the names of

[0:13:38] Voice 3: all persons present. So I thought now we'd have just a smidge of fun on a Thursday evening and

[0:13:44] Voice 3: just walk through a couple of scenarios, all of which have occurred. And I'm going to try and see,

[0:13:51] Voice 3: I'm not going to be able to see because I'm presenting. Oh, maybe I

[0:13:57] Voice 10: can just bear with me

[0:13:57] Voice 10: for a second here. I'm going to offer these questions and ask for people to, oops,

[0:14:07] Voice 3: to offer

[0:14:10] Voice 3: whether they think this could, each of these scenarios would be a gathering or an actual

[0:14:15] Voice 3: meeting and there's some trick questions built into this so elected officials email each other

[0:14:21] Voice 3: to collaborate on one a project to an application or three a process does anyone have any thoughts

[0:14:27] Voice 3: on what that what those would be whether that would be considered an open open meeting or a

[0:14:33] Voice 3: gathering

[0:14:35] Voice 8: just

[0:14:38] Voice 3: to get it what

[0:14:39] Voice 8: do you mean by collaborate i

[0:14:42] Voice 3: don't know what we often get this

[0:14:43] Voice 3: scenario they just want to discuss it they want to get together uh they want to email back and

[0:14:50] Voice 3: forth to discuss or um a project an application or a process that

[0:14:55] Voice 4: has to happen in a meeting that

[0:14:56] Voice 4: can't that that that has to be done in a public setting so

[0:15:01] Voice 3: i would agree with that and i'll

[0:15:02] Voice 3: provide a bit of a subtlety any project or application should occur in an open meeting

[0:15:09] Voice 3: in a public forum but i think frankly if you're an ltc and you're saying and you want to call

[0:15:15] Voice 3: the other trustee and go you know um i think these should be on tuesdays instead of mondays

[0:15:21] Voice 3: or i think we should start later on the day or if it's a process question you can call i think you

[0:15:29] Voice 3: can reasonably call your other trustee and have a conversation or how how you want to talk to each

[0:15:34] Voice 3: other or something on a very base process type level i think you could you'd be um you'd be

[0:15:42] Voice 3: be safe doing that so so i

[0:15:44] Voice 2: mean also if you don't mind so apologies for interrupting no that's fine

[0:15:49] Voice 3: whether

[0:15:49] Voice 2: to go formally about raising my hand or whatever in a very general sense um i feel that

[0:15:57] Voice 2: pretty much all of these scenarios although i haven't gone through them all

[0:16:01] Voice 2: and what i feel most constrained about in my new role is um the ability to just have a general

[0:16:11] Voice 2: discussion with other people, not moving towards a decision,

[0:16:15] Voice 2: just sharing information. I think in the Ombudsman's

[0:16:19] Voice 2: guide, it refers to shirt sleeve sessions

[0:16:22] Voice 2: and working sessions.

[0:16:27] Voice 2: I think in pretty much all of these

[0:16:31] Voice 2: scenarios, for instance, two trustees meet on the side with an applicant.

[0:16:35] Voice 2: Theoretically, yes, you're a quorum, but it could be to gather information

[0:16:39] Voice 2: And to share information efficiently and effectively, rather than each person go to the site with the applicant separately, as a ridiculous example.

[0:16:51] Voice 2: So I struggle with the fact, what I hear is, you must not move to a decision. But sharing information and discussing very broadly, even the specifics of a particular project or application could be allowed. Anyway, that's what I'm struggling with at the moment.

[0:17:12] Voice 2: yeah

[0:17:13] Voice 3: no and i understand that and i will tell you that these rules or guidelines are exacerbated by

[0:17:19] Voice 3: working in a small community um on a small because a lot of it doesn't seem to make sense

[0:17:26] Voice 3: um but item two two trustees meet on site with an applicant would be an example that i would

[0:17:31] Voice 3: suggest should should not occur unless you had staff there with you um we feel that many this

[0:17:38] Voice 3: This has happened and neighbors phone in and going, how come the applicant gets to meet with the people who are deciding on site and there's no opportunity to hear what's being said?

[0:17:51] Voice 3: So that would be an example of something that should be either an organized event, which can happen, or should be conducted in a public session or individually.

[0:18:02] Voice 3: So I agree with you, there is an inefficiency to the transparency process.

[0:18:06] Voice 3: process and we just have to sort of keep working through it to where common sense gets challenged

[0:18:13] Voice 3: in some ways so I appreciate your confusion a community information meeting with a quorum

[0:18:20] Voice 3: present well there's two types from my experience at the islands trust there's when you have a

[0:18:27] Voice 3: community there's two at least two types of community information meeting if you're having

[0:18:31] Voice 3: having an open house you don't you can that is not really an official meeting where you need

[0:18:38] Voice 3: minute takers and all those things you would you would advertise it so everyone could attend

[0:18:44] Voice 3: you both could attend as well you could answer questions from the public but you're not moving

[0:18:51] Voice 3: towards decisions so that one is tends to be a gray area we often move however in the islands

[0:18:58] Voice 3: trust it seems like from that into a town hall where people get up and want to speak and they

[0:19:03] Voice 3: want to have their opinions recorded and then you would need a minute taker so if we have the

[0:19:10] Voice 3: ability a minute taker and organize organization around discussing an ocp a significant ocp

[0:19:17] Voice 3: amendment so we would then default to having an actual public meeting email trustees emailing

[0:19:26] Voice 3: other trustees with ideas prior to trust council meeting the initial foray of the ideas tends not

[0:19:33] Voice 3: to be an issue it's on this is what I think about something the flood of response that then forces

[0:19:39] Voice 3: everyone else to not respond or they're you're beginning to deliberate on ideas that are going

[0:19:47] Voice 3: to be moving to a decision so you would probably want to resist the the temptation of emailing

[0:19:52] Voice 3: everybody this is what i think should happen at trust council regarding this matter or that matter

[0:19:57] Voice 3: um it's uh we've had in the last two terms a variety of different versions of this um occur

[0:20:06] Voice 3: and it provided some challenge um depending upon what the topic is and the strength of belief of

[0:20:14] Voice 3: the people who are um offering something out um you know uh so um that would be an example of

[0:20:21] Voice 3: something that should be happening at a at a public meeting an interesting one is local trust

[0:20:26] Voice 3: committee members attend a meeting at a first nations office any thoughts there i

[0:20:37] Voice 1: see a hand

[0:20:38] Voice 1: oh

[0:20:38] Voice 9: yes earlier

[0:20:40] Voice 1: backtracking a little bit here um just uh one of the things i struggle with is

[0:20:46] Voice 1: uh you know the that fine line between when are you discussing something that could lead to a

[0:20:56] Voice 1: decision and when are you not kind of thing and I find that the cost is that it's sort of if you

[0:21:04] Voice 1: stay fairly strict on that on that line the cost is that you can't really do brainstorming you know

[0:21:13] Voice 1: it's very I can't picture a way or format a meeting or a gathering to brainstorm with your

[0:21:20] Voice 1: or constituents and i find that's a big loss because i think the best solutions come up through

[0:21:26] Voice 1: a very open brainstorming but of course the brainstorming leads to a decision because

[0:21:32] Voice 1: one of those things that you brainstorm may happen or it may be rejected which means it

[0:21:38] Voice 1: led to a decision so give me a little bit

[0:21:41] Voice 8: more yeah

[0:21:43] Voice 3: so i i think the trappings of an open meeting

[0:21:47] Voice 3: at the islands trust can be quite informal um and that we could achieve we could have a

[0:21:54] Voice 3: brainstorming session on issue x as long as it's advertised um all people have equal access and

[0:22:01] Voice 3: opportunity to attend it and um if there's progress made these ideas are sort of recorded

[0:22:07] Voice 3: for um feeding back into the process it's it's as simple as that um so i i i think we can achieve

[0:22:17] Voice 3: what you need to do um and that works leave session the one i get challenged with all the time

[0:22:24] Voice 3: is a group of trustees come up with a great idea they want to talk about it it's probably not ready

[0:22:32] Voice 3: for public consumption you know because because it's it's it's really at that brainstorming phase

[0:22:38] Voice 3: and it's hard to do that in a public forum uh some of the ideas might be loopy but they actually

[0:22:43] Voice 3: further the conversation and finding that space to have those kind of conversations

[0:22:49] Voice 3: is the challenge and I'd like to do anything I could to make those kinds of opportunities happen

[0:22:56] Voice 3: and I think that you know if we get to a committee structure that does that has

[0:23:01] Voice 3: some small groups working on some topics we'll be able to investigate the the specifics of those

[0:23:08] Voice 3: to see whether

[0:23:09] Voice 1: we can make this sorry sorry for interrupting me isn't that exactly what's

[0:23:14] Voice 1: forbidden because that's that's not a meeting that's not a minuted recorded meeting it's not

[0:23:20] Voice 1: open to the public it's not

[0:23:22] Voice 3: right but it's the thing that i get most asked for how can i

[0:23:26] Voice 3: collaborate with my colleagues right right and it's always a challenge to do that and people

[0:23:32] Voice 3: who've served on these various committees they essentially do that in public and we record those

[0:23:37] Voice 3: those those sessions and that's that's our standard process at this point but I'm what

[0:23:43] Voice 3: I'm saying is I'm sympathetic to the challenge associated with that

[0:23:46] Voice 1: right right yeah so so then

[0:23:48] Voice 1: in that case there would never be a situation where trustee you know a couple of two or three

[0:23:53] Voice 1: or one more trustees have come up with someone some ideas and that are bantering them around

[0:23:57] Voice 1: and it's not quite ready to go to the public yet because it's kind of still raw that scenario

[0:24:04] Voice 1: would never happen because there is no bantering there is no there is no talk there's no place to

[0:24:09] Voice 1: do that without the public there so that's not really a scenario yeah

[0:24:14] Voice 9: i

[0:24:15] Voice 1: know it's challenging

[0:24:16] Voice 1: i'm really challenged with this yeah

[0:24:18] Voice 3: trustee morrison one

[0:24:21] Voice 11: comment and then a question to

[0:24:22] Voice 11: loop back so we have done exactly what russ is saying uh with like a recorder and community

[0:24:29] Voice 11: information meeting kind of structure for brainstorming on north bender we did it really

[0:24:33] Voice 11: early on in the um term last term and then we did it we were planning forward for it for three

[0:24:40] Voice 11: sessions this year um we just shifted our meetings so we have three community information meetings

[0:24:45] Voice 11: scheduled into instead of regular meetings so that's the intent is to do that type of thing

[0:24:51] Voice 11: but we just have a recorder to make it a public meeting it's announced like all those things are

[0:24:55] Voice 11: in play um the and then the question russ is back to number one and it kind of is the struggle that

[0:25:03] Voice 11: your naming um like one of the things like i understand what you're saying at the ltc level

[0:25:09] Voice 11: because at a three level three member ltc it's a problem anytime you like walk into the grocery

[0:25:13] Voice 11: store with your fellow trustee sometimes that's right

[0:25:16] Voice 11: but the elected officials thing with trust

[0:25:20] Voice 11: council is a different situation because we had last semester in our committee work we had

[0:25:25] Voice 11: working groups that were part of the um trust programs committee so sub committee level um

[0:25:33] Voice 11: that were not quorum of the committee, we intentionally made sure that we didn't get

[0:25:37] Voice 11: quorum of the committee on any of the working groups. And that allowed us a little more

[0:25:41] Voice 11: flexibility to be able to not have quorum, brainstorm and think, bring that brainstorming

[0:25:48] Voice 11: back to the quorum situation, where we can then discuss and like make more explicit and document.

[0:25:54] Voice 11: So it's kind of a little bit of an in between situation.

[0:25:57] Voice 3: And I think, you know, I've just returned to this slide. And because there's no perfect answers to

[0:26:02] Voice 3: complex questions. When I hear what Trustee Morrison just described, and I look at a gathering,

[0:26:09] Voice 3: I can see that passing the threshold. A small subgroup of a committee is fairly far removed

[0:26:18] Voice 3: from an actual decision. There isn't a quorum. It is taking place under the control of the

[0:26:24] Voice 3: council or board members, but it doesn't tend to be regularly scheduled. It's not an ongoing,

[0:26:30] Voice 3: going annually scheduled event it's not formal there's no voting and it tends to be an exchange

[0:26:37] Voice 3: of information um so that's the soft spot that i think addresses what uh trustee falco is concerned

[0:26:44] Voice 3: with as well so thank you for those comments i'll go to trustee bernardo and then i'll return to

[0:26:50] Voice 3: trustee boland and then i'll start moving back to the presentation hi

[0:26:54] Trustee Bernardo: um thanks for that um

[0:26:57] Trustee Bernardo: Yeah, I'm struggling a little bit here because, well, it's related to committee things. It's also related to this business of what a decision actually is.

[0:27:10] Trustee Bernardo: I think we need to discuss it with a bit more sharpness, what metaphysical definition we're going to put on what a quote decision is.

[0:27:19] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, you mentioned before that if there is some discussion that looks like it's leading towards a decision, oh, well, that's off limits and it needs to be public.

[0:27:32] Trustee Bernardo: But what does that actually mean? Because anything that happens before a decision feeds into it.

[0:27:39] Trustee Bernardo: So you can, you know, where's the cutoff point for saying, well, the discussion you had last Tuesday was acutely focused on something.

[0:27:47] Trustee Bernardo: think so that counts as a meeting but the discussion that you had the friday before that

[0:27:52] Trustee Bernardo: related to that and set up the precursor of the subject well that isn't um i've read the

[0:28:00] Trustee Bernardo: legislation and i don't know where you're getting it i'd like to know where a lot of this detail

[0:28:05] Trustee Bernardo: comes because the legislation that by itself isn't particularly detailed but um isn't um the spirit

[0:28:13] Trustee Bernardo: of the legislation and i haven't been arguing i'm asking here isn't the spirit of the legislation

[0:28:18] Trustee Bernardo: that meetings at where a decision is being taken must be open but that's it it's

[0:28:27] Voice 3: not no no i would

[0:28:28] Voice 3: submit i would submit no these aren't my words um the ones around a meeting in the gathering these

[0:28:34] Voice 3: come from the ombudsperson's um report where they've characterized the key elements associated

[0:28:41] Voice 3: with each in the guidelines from the charter and the ministry the ministry has if you go on their

[0:28:47] Voice 3: website as a a narrower interpretation where they're saying broadly applied um and so it's

[0:28:55] Voice 3: the constituent elements of a decision making process now where we always have to talk about

[0:29:00] Voice 3: risk here um what are the risks you know last term we got pretty close we got pretty close

[0:29:10] Voice 3: risk of

[0:29:11] Voice 3: what risk of a bylaw being challenged because um or the term before the risk the real

[0:29:19] Voice 3: risk is that some people feel that they were not involved in the decision making process to the

[0:29:24] Voice 3: degree that they object to the passage of the bylaw that's the ultimate risk and in my career

[0:29:32] Voice 3: i have to keep relating to myself that's happened maybe three or four times so it's that risk equals

[0:29:37] Voice 3: consequence i'm

[0:29:39] Trustee Bernardo: sorry to interrupt but this stuff is very important and it's very hard for me

[0:29:42] Trustee Bernardo: actually to follow the meaning of some of these things because there's a lot of concepts that are

[0:29:47] Trustee Bernardo: just flying around here like when you say people were objecting that they weren't involved in a

[0:29:53] Trustee Bernardo: decision um people in the public don't get involved they get to witness so like

[0:30:00] Trustee Bernardo: what do you mean by that?

[0:30:01] Voice 3: I mean that the complaints we received is that meetings were

[0:30:04] Voice 3: being held that were not open meetings. Okay.

[0:30:09] Voice 3: So that the bylaws being

[0:30:11] Voice 10: discussed were invalid

[0:30:18] Voice 10: as they moved through the process.

[0:30:20] Voice 3: And that would be, that's the ultimate risk associated with this.

[0:30:23] Trustee Bernardo: So let me see if I've got this right. Is the theory that you could have like 20 meetings

[0:30:27] Trustee Bernardo: and they'll run up to a bylaw, but you happen to have one meeting that was private. No decision

[0:30:32] Trustee Bernardo: decision was taken there but the bylaw was discussed and there was a quorum and you're

[0:30:37] Trustee Bernardo: saying that's sufficient to invalidate the bylaw um

[0:30:42] Voice 3: would a judge come down in the scenario you've

[0:30:46] Voice 3: provided probably not but at its face yes if you're holding private meetings because if it's

[0:30:56] Voice 3: not public it's private and furthering um a legislative effort um now you or others can

[0:31:04] Voice 3: And probably, if you don't like this, you'll have room to work around these various elements.

[0:31:11] Voice 3: These are the broad concepts that are presented to you around meetings.

[0:31:18] Voice 3: Certainly, there's

[0:31:19] Voice 3: a lot of definitions that we could spend some time working through.

[0:31:24] Trustee Bernardo: Right.

[0:31:25] Trustee Bernardo: But my concern here, Russ, is that when you talk about broad and stuff like this, this is an area that we need some real precision on.

[0:31:33] Trustee Bernardo: Because I'll be blunt.

[0:31:34] Trustee Bernardo: I don't want us to be intimidated out of what is going to be one of the most important functions we've got, which is deliberation.

[0:31:41] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, you referred to this before, which is, you know, brainstorming, banging ideas around, being able to think out loud with your colleagues and put forward dopey ideas that are half complete so that you can sort of air them out and get input and stuff like that.

[0:31:57] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, that's a really valuable way to get things done.

[0:32:00] Trustee Bernardo: on uh if everything is so uh if we're frightened about the formalities to the extent that it

[0:32:07] Trustee Bernardo: inhibits our ability to talk in big picture things uh that's problematic and related to that

[0:32:14] Trustee Bernardo: um i'm sorry to take up all this air time at the beginning of this you were talking about how the

[0:32:20] Trustee Bernardo: open rule applies to a bunch of things and you referred to committee meetings not like do you

[0:32:27] Trustee Bernardo: mean local trust committee meetings that i understand but i'm having real trouble understanding

[0:32:31] Trustee Bernardo: how this rule applies to committees of the trust council and i'll tell you why when i looked at the

[0:32:38] Trustee Bernardo: island's trust regulation it adopts the community charter provisions that mandate this but it adopts

[0:32:45] Trustee Bernardo: them for trust council meetings and adopts them for ltc meetings now a committee of the trust

[0:32:54] Trustee Bernardo: council is not the trust council so moreover the function of those committees that we have

[0:33:01] Trustee Bernardo: at trust council level they're really supposed to be working groups where we get things done

[0:33:05] Trustee Bernardo: if they're treated as legislative bodies it's hard to get work done it's hard to brainstorm

[0:33:10] Trustee Bernardo: and that sort of thing but more to the point what on earth what kind of decision gets made

[0:33:17] Trustee Bernardo: in a committee i mean the people on the committee can reach a conclusion about a recommendation they

[0:33:23] Trustee Bernardo: want to make to trust counsel but in terms of a legal decision that's nothing it's not a decision

[0:33:30] Trustee Bernardo: it's simply okay this is the best we can do we're going to put in a shoebox and take to the trust

[0:33:35] Trustee Bernardo: counsel the trust counsel is the body with the power it's the one that has to do the deliberation

[0:33:39] Trustee Bernardo: it's a decision so help

[0:33:43] Voice 3: me out i can't help you out more than you you've raised a series of um

[0:33:50] Voice 3: existential questions around the matter um we have our own policy that includes council committees

[0:33:57] Voice 3: it's it's so that's embedded in our policies i can certainly refer you to that as well

[0:34:02] Voice 3: yeah it

[0:34:02] Trustee Bernardo: is i looked at the meeting policy and i don't see i think it's a little old but i don't

[0:34:07] Trustee Bernardo: i couldn't find one that referred to committees i'll

[0:34:11] Voice 9: get it to you thank you i'll get it to you

[0:34:14] Voice 9: and i think you're just you're just describing a challenge um why

[0:34:23] Voice 3: those conversations couldn't

[0:34:25] Voice 3: happen happen with in a public forum um i think the threshold's low for being able to do that

[0:34:30] Voice 3: um i think we particularly in this day and age with the the um accessibility have to look with

[0:34:36] Voice 3: electronic means and so forth we can achieve it but uh when i started the meeting off talking

[0:34:41] Voice 3: about principles the principles of transparency colliding with the one the some of the principles

[0:34:45] Voice 3: you're describing that's that's exactly it trustee boland

[0:34:51] Voice 10: you're muted yeah yeah

[0:34:58] Voice 2: you're not three

[0:34:59] Voice 2: clicks three clicks anyway um just to support what um joe bernardo said i i did read you know

[0:35:07] Voice 2: i've struggled with this exact question i've read the ombudsman's guide i've read the terms of

[0:35:13] Voice 2: reference i've read the policies you know about meetings and the local trust uh that they act

[0:35:20] Voice 2: the regulations I'm not trained to interpret these things and there's a layer of complexity you know

[0:35:27] Voice 2: which one refers to which but as a general point I would see and support what Joe raised which is

[0:35:36] Voice 2: decisions are made by trust council and decisions are made by the LTCs the committee's in between

[0:35:45] Voice 2: And it comes back to what Deb talked about, which was the fact that they formed these subgroups and working groups.

[0:35:54] Voice 2: And in fact, in the governance review, they recommended that there should be subgroups and working groups.

[0:36:00] Voice 2: Well, you know, where do you draw the line? Arguably, these committees could be designated to be those subgroups and working groups because they are tasked with making recommendations.

[0:36:10] Voice 2: recommendations they're not tasked with making decisions so i and the second point i'd like to

[0:36:17] Voice 2: make is that um you know transparency is everything if we are completely transparent

[0:36:23] Voice 2: about what we intend to do and how we intend to work and what our choices are then you know and

[0:36:33] Voice 2: we make the points about why i don't think our community will you know be terribly offended

[0:36:39] Voice 2: We can make a more nuanced attempt at, you know, at the moment, we just put everything out there, an entire giant agenda, we record the webinar, we struggle to have a discussion because we can't talk unless there's a motion on the table, which has had to be prepared in advance, which can't really be shared with more than a certain number, da-da-da-da-da.

[0:37:07] Voice 2: I mean, it's really very, very, very difficult to talk openly and to share opinions.

[0:37:15] Voice 2: And, you know, so far, what I see, with all due respect, is like reasons not to do that.

[0:37:22] Voice 2: I don't see like a list of suggestions about how you could.

[0:37:26] Voice 2: And I don't actually really like the word to work around it, because that implies in some way that you're finding ways not to honor the letter of the law.

[0:37:37] Voice 2: And I'd prefer to actually challenge it full on and to say, this is how we're going to work. We believe that it accommodates all the recommendations.

[0:37:50] Voice 2: Well, with

[0:37:51] Voice 3: due respect, I think you will collide with the regulation. With respect, I think if, as you've presented this,

[0:38:00] Voice 9: I think

[0:38:01] Voice 3: that that would collide with the intent of the legislation.

[0:38:07] Voice 3: legislation um so this is a legislate this is a legislative overview for you um and um ultimately

[0:38:15] Voice 3: um you know we can get into the specifics of the um of the charter and what it means

[0:38:20] Voice 3: um but these are sort of the the broad strokes associated with these meetings um and there isn't

[0:38:30] Voice 3: a there isn't a fine line you you will be able to define much of how you want to proceed with

[0:38:36] Voice 3: these various things right now in policy we have council committees as um uh a body that has um

[0:38:44] Voice 3: the ability as an open meeting with the ability of the public to to listen certainly over the

[0:38:48] Voice 3: last two terms we've had significant public interest in what those committees are discussing

[0:38:54] Voice 3: and a request for people to attend them so we're coming up on 7 11 we've got 15 or 20 minutes left

[0:39:04] Voice 3: and a significant amount of information to go through we could organize a subsequent follow-up

[0:39:09] Voice 3: meeting as well and and if you if you wanted to really work a couple of these issues and send

[0:39:16] Voice 3: them in to me I can develop them a bit further and when you get to maybe the governance committees

[0:39:20] Voice 3: ultimately will sit on this and start to go this is this is the line that we want to be closer to

[0:39:25] Voice 3: but let's go to let's go with trustee Evans so

[0:39:30] Voice 5: I just wanted to summarize what I've been hearing

[0:39:33] Voice 5: from everybody with a suggestion um what i'm hearing is that the guidelines or the the um

[0:39:41] Voice 5: the legislation is very i don't even know how to say it um where the legislation is written it's

[0:39:51] Voice 5: very binding the guidelines that you're suggesting are very loose is there a way that we could come

[0:39:57] Voice 5: come up with firmer guidelines as to how we can operate while upholding the legislation

[0:40:05] Voice 5: that are more specific than the vagaries that have been suggested or brought up during this

[0:40:15] Voice 5: meeting. I know that's not necessarily something that could be done right away, but perhaps that's

[0:40:19] Voice 5: something that could be worked on so we have more definitive things

[0:40:24] Voice 3: to

[0:40:25] Voice 5: work with them.

[0:40:26] Voice 5: I

[0:40:26] Voice 3: think that, say, the Governance Committee could take this issue away and look at how do we want to amend our policies or more define policies and define our open meetings.

[0:40:35] Voice 3: And you could discuss that at the

[0:40:38] Voice 10: Council Committee level.

[0:40:44] Voice 10: Trustee Bernardo, you're muted, sir.

[0:40:52] Voice 10: Sorry about that.

[0:40:54] Voice 10: Yeah,

[0:40:55] Trustee Bernardo: my question here is the information we're getting about the open meeting thing.

[0:41:01] Trustee Bernardo: I can understand why you'd be providing us with a conservative interpretation of this approach so that we stay out of trouble, and that's fair enough.

[0:41:12] Trustee Bernardo: Thanks.

[0:41:13] Trustee Bernardo: But I'm a little concerned that, as Trustee Evans said, that it's not your fault, but it's a little vague.

[0:41:22] Trustee Bernardo: It's like, on the one hand, the rules are being presented as being particularly onerous and strict.

[0:41:28] Trustee Bernardo: And then on the other hand, you're hinting at tactics to sort of work around them.

[0:41:33] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, I'll be honest, Russ, it's confusing.

[0:41:38] Trustee Bernardo: And here's the question.

[0:41:39] Trustee Bernardo: Do we have a legal opinion about the scope of the application of this open meeting rule business on us here at the Ireland's Trust?

[0:41:50] Trustee Bernardo: And if so, could you make that available to me so I could read it?

[0:41:55] Voice 9: I'll take a look.

[0:41:58] Trustee Bernardo: Thank you.

[0:42:00] Voice 3: Okay, so I think we've had semi-success in discussing this topic, but certainly trustees have got some concerns and they want to look at different ways to interpret things.

[0:42:12] Voice 3: How I've presented this so far is basically how we've proceeded over the last period of time.

[0:42:18] Voice 3: And if there's change imminent, feel free to get in touch with me or work through your committees as well to look at what that change could be.

[0:42:27] Voice 3: So I'm now going to segue into, I don't see any other questions, into conflict of interest and bias. And we'll just do a few minutes on that. This is a well-worn topic in local governance. You're going to see it a lot. You'll either be in that situation yourself or one of your compatriots sitting across the table will be in that situation.

[0:42:47] Voice 3: first of all understand that it's very common very regular and especially in small communities

[0:42:55] Voice 3: there's of course nothing ethically wrong with having a conflict because in small communities

[0:43:00] Voice 3: in particular leadership people are involved in many different activities and before they

[0:43:07] Voice 3: become elected officials and they represent people across the spectrum and there's a lot

[0:43:13] Voice 3: different projects they're involved in so quite often we see a number of conflicts of entrance

[0:43:20] Voice 3: many of you would know much of much of this information information but the types of

[0:43:24] Voice 3: conflict of interest are pecuniary and non-pecuniary common law conflict of interest

[0:43:31] Voice 3: if you are find yourself in that situation and this is a key point this is your responsibility

[0:43:38] Voice 3: it's not my responsibility and it's not the responsibility of the local trust committee

[0:43:44] Voice 3: they can't compel you nor your other trustees so it's a considered position that you have to take

[0:43:52] Voice 3: and if you find that you are in a conflict you may not participate in discussion of or a vote

[0:43:59] Voice 3: on a resolution or bylaw if you have a direct or indirect interest so pecuniary

[0:44:08] Voice 3: direct or indirect is do you or a family member or a society for instance that you lead

[0:44:13] Voice 3: have a financial interest in a decision and non-pecuniary or common law conflict of interest

[0:44:20] Voice 3: is a conflict of loyalties so would an LTC decision benefit your relatives close friends

[0:44:25] Voice 3: or associates in some way does it involve a group where you play a leadership role

[0:44:30] Voice 3: and would Islanders think that you won't be able to change your mind this is more on the bias

[0:44:35] Voice 3: question, because your decision is a foregone conclusion. Of course, this is an astounding

[0:44:43] Voice 3: challenge for an elected official who often runs on a position and says, I believe in this,

[0:44:49] Voice 3: and that's why you should vote for me. And then they get to the table, and as long as they don't

[0:44:54] Voice 3: say something like, no matter what information is provided me, I'm still going to vote X,

[0:45:01] Voice 3: that would lend itself to a charge of bias but you can have a position on a topic as long as if you

[0:45:08] Voice 3: you're open to hearing information until the time of decision is made you're in good stead to make

[0:45:16] Voice 3: that decision so there are exemptions from pecuniary conflict if you have interests in

[0:45:23] Voice 3: common with the community if a property you have or a neighbor or a friend is going from

[0:45:30] Voice 3: from residential one to residential two,

[0:45:32] Voice 3: and so does 300 other properties in the community

[0:45:36] Voice 3: that would exempt you from that type of conflict.

[0:45:40] Voice 3: You're exempt around trustee remuneration,

[0:45:42] Voice 3: expenses and benefits.

[0:45:44] Voice 3: And if anything is so remote or insignificant

[0:45:46] Voice 3: that it's unlikely to influence you,

[0:45:49] Voice 3: and if there's an interest that's prescribed by regulation.

[0:45:53] Voice 3: So what do you do if you are in that situation?

[0:45:58] Voice 3: In the specific, in the moment,

[0:46:00] Voice 3: it could occur over some period of time or something could come up at the table at an LTC.

[0:46:07] Voice 3: If you feel you are in that position, declare that you have a conflict, leave the meeting each time

[0:46:11] Voice 3: that topic comes up. Don't participate in a discussion of the topic that other LTC members

[0:46:18] Voice 3: vote on it or try and influence their decisions. And avoid calling into staff or making

[0:46:26] Voice 3: making recommendations on how the topic could move forward. What if you're uncertain? We've got a lot

[0:46:34] Voice 3: of supports for you. So if you're uncertain, do I have a conflict or not? Seek advice as soon as

[0:46:40] Voice 3: possible. That tends to be me. So you would call me. I probably have, I don't know, 20 conversations

[0:46:48] Voice 3: a year like this with an elected official around that. I can usually get it right 50% of the time.

[0:46:56] Voice 3: the other 50 we provide legal advice for you and the process is you call me and say i'm unclear i

[0:47:03] Voice 3: think i might have a conflict and i i ask you to describe the situation and um i i would then go to

[0:47:12] Voice 3: our legal um our contracted legal counsel and and introduce the two of you and the two of you would

[0:47:18] Voice 3: have that conversation and you were provided um that legal advice and then you move forward

[0:47:26] Voice 3: so in a meeting declare the con conflict indicate you need to get some advice act as if you do even

[0:47:31] Voice 3: if you're unsure seek advice and of course if the advice indicates you don't have a conflict

[0:47:37] Voice 3: you can rescind your declaration and participate in decision making there is a bit of a dance here

[0:47:43] Voice 3: in that you would want your colleagues to to provide you the opportunity for clarity before

[0:47:50] Voice 3: a final decision was made. I think that's something that could come up and certainly

[0:47:56] Voice 3: you might be sitting across the table from someone who you think does have a conflict of interest.

[0:48:01] Voice 3: You don't have the ability to compel that person. You could discuss it with them at the table. You

[0:48:07] Voice 3: could go, I think we should, I think you might have to look at this issue and then that person

[0:48:15] Voice 3: would be in the position that I'm describing here. They would have to take on the obligation

[0:48:20] Voice 3: of thinking that through and either said, no, I'm fine, I don't think I do, or to access the

[0:48:28] Voice 3: resources at the Allen's Trust. So if someone else comes to you, a member of the public,

[0:48:33] Voice 3: quite often this occurs and says you have a conflict, thank them, think about it, they might

[0:48:38] Voice 3: be right, they might be wrong. I wouldn't get angry, there's nothing wrong with having a conflict

[0:48:43] Voice 3: of interest, of course, and get advice before participating in decision making. It's a

[0:48:48] Voice 3: a challenging topic but it it will come up we have had uh there's a fairly significant oops

[0:48:56] Voice 3: fairly significant case that turned um against the islands trust a number of years ago where

[0:49:03] Voice 3: trustees were members of a society and they were found to have a conflict of interest

[0:49:09] Voice 3: i can certainly provide you that legal opinion it became illustrative in local governance in

[0:49:14] Voice 3: in BC around the conflict between different obligations.

[0:49:19] Voice 3: One as an elected official and two as a member of a society.

[0:49:24] Voice 3: So if you have leadership positions,

[0:49:27] Voice 3: quite often we see it in the affordable housing area.

[0:49:32] Voice 3: Someone's a member of a society trying to get some work done

[0:49:35] Voice 3: inevitably some of those decisions will be made

[0:49:37] Voice 3: in LTC level around the land use application piece.

[0:49:42] Voice 3: and you may if you're in a leadership position there you may want to consider stepping back from

[0:49:47] Voice 3: that a group you're associated with might seek contracts or benefits of some kind from the trust

[0:49:53] Voice 3: or they make an application of some kind to your local trust committee so that's a very rapid walk

[0:50:01] Voice 3: through conflict of interest the easy answer here call me that's what we're here for david

[0:50:07] Voice 3: marler also is very experienced here and we'll get you usually we can get you something within

[0:50:11] Voice 3: in 28 to 48 hours in terms of some advice are

[0:50:16] Voice 10: there any questions okay so let's go into our

[0:50:24] Voice 10: third piece what time do we have 7 22 um

[0:50:34] Voice 3: freedom of information protection of privacy

[0:50:37] Voice 3: so when i first started in local governance this wasn't much of a thing it is now a massive thing

[0:50:44] Voice 3: um the for those of you who are interested in efficiency at the allen's trust this now takes

[0:50:51] Voice 3: up where it was previously um a scenario where an administrative person would get some records

[0:50:57] Voice 3: and provide them to somebody we now have there's of course a significant process associated with

[0:51:03] Voice 3: foipa and we probably have what i'd call um you know not position creep but there's an

[0:51:12] Voice 3: unfunded FTE to 1.5 FTEs that is working on FOIPA and protection of information

[0:51:21] Voice 3: matters at all times at the Allen's Trust. We have a lot of information, a lot of files.

[0:51:27] Voice 3: Members of the public have a right to see most of that information, but we also have a lot of

[0:51:33] Voice 3: private information about individuals. And so it's balancing the public's right to privacy and the

[0:51:39] Voice 3: public's right to information foipa has rules if you're interested we can get you the specific

[0:51:45] Voice 3: specifics of what those are that helps us decide what we can release to the public and what we

[0:51:50] Voice 3: can't i will point out to you that you are not foipa officers yourselves so don't feel obligated

[0:51:57] Voice 3: to providing if someone says hey i want to get a bunch of information on this you would want to

[0:52:02] Voice 3: hand that over to staff and staff would take that work on there's we charge for some of it as well

[0:52:08] Voice 3: so that there's a small percentage of cost recovery associated with that with that programming

[0:52:15] Voice 3: um so that that's a burden you don't have but you can certainly facilitate the conversation

[0:52:20] Voice 3: and get them in touch with one of these people um david is the head of this as the director of

[0:52:26] Voice 3: legislative services and we have three coordinators who are the legislative kirks deputy secretaries

[0:52:31] Voice 3: um jazz becky and daniella and each local trust committee has a foy bylaw which appoints the

[0:52:40] Voice 3: position of the head and authorizes the legislative clerks to perform any duty or function directed by

[0:52:46] Voice 3: the head of the of the organization for that direct request for records to staff um you can

[0:52:55] Voice 3: give your records to our focus staff if requested we must maintain the privacy of people whose

[0:53:00] Voice 3: information you may receive so in a previous world uh when we had rezonings and we put out

[0:53:08] Voice 3: the rezoning binder and people would write in um it was just their letter would be in the public

[0:53:14] Voice 3: binder and and the various matters they said we now need to check with people whether their

[0:53:19] Voice 3: information can go forward and they have to confirm that their name can be attached with

[0:53:24] Voice 3: comments. So that's a fairly significant redactive piece of work. So there's a large action around

[0:53:33] Voice 3: protecting the privacy of people whose information you may receive. Quite often we get asked for

[0:53:43] Voice 3: information by well-meaning other agencies for private information, which we traditionally do

[0:53:49] Voice 3: not fulfill. That's either mailing addresses or contact information from non-resident property

[0:53:56] Voice 3: property electors. If you get asked for that information, it's most likely that you will not

[0:54:01] Voice 3: be able to provide it, but you can check with staff and we'll get you the specific answer.

[0:54:09] Voice 9: So, oh, I see Trustee Evans has a question.

[0:54:14] Voice 5: Yes, just a quick one. So when we get various

[0:54:18] Voice 5: applications that come in, are those considered, do those applications contain elements of

[0:54:26] Voice 5: of of private information um like i understand that some of these get discussed at open meetings

[0:54:32] Voice 5: but where where does like how do you how do you figure out what which applications can be discussed

[0:54:37] Voice 5: and what can't or is that case by case well

[0:54:41] Voice 3: generally in the application process people

[0:54:43] Voice 3: are making themselves public right but almost by definition so that that that's not our the

[0:54:49] Voice 3: challenge will be when an application is going forward and members of the community are commenting

[0:54:54] Voice 3: on it and writing letters or providing analysis associated with an application or some direction

[0:55:01] Voice 3: that's of the interest of the LTC that's where the redacting process really comes into play

[0:55:07] Voice 3: and we have made mistakes like every other local government around releasing information that might

[0:55:13] Voice 3: be quite critical of a certain process and then that then we've made the mistake of providing

[0:55:21] Voice 3: providing that public information. So that's where it tends to be most felt by the organization,

[0:55:27] Voice 3: less so on the actual applicant's side that is necessarily public. So the act defines a record.

[0:55:35] Voice 3: So you are creating records right now. I am creating records right now. I have a little book

[0:55:42] Voice 3: right here that I do all my daily work in. That is a public record. When you're jotting notes down

[0:55:50] Voice 3: at a meeting that's a record the act defines a record as any information recorded or stored by

[0:55:57] Voice 3: any means in hard copy or electronic format be aware that handwritten notes and electronic

[0:56:02] Voice 3: comments made during a meeting and observed by an individual can be requested under foi

[0:56:08] Voice 3: it's a sad part of my job that i have to you know go through the various rules and regs that apply

[0:56:13] Voice 3: to various bodies and i appreciate that it seems like it limits you but i'm just giving you the

[0:56:22] Voice 3: what you have to be aware of, because what inevitably will happen over the next period

[0:56:27] Voice 3: of time is we'll get an FOI request, perhaps around a bylaw enforcement matter, perhaps around

[0:56:34] Voice 3: an initiative that's going forward. And it says, please provide all emails from any trustee or any

[0:56:42] Voice 3: staff person that mentions the words X swamps or mentions for sure in any way. And staff have to

[0:56:52] Voice 3: go they will you will get a letter from staff or an email requesting any information that you would

[0:56:57] Voice 3: have associated with that topic and you're obligated to surrender those things we would

[0:57:02] Voice 3: compile them redact them and provide them through under foi to the individual and those are maps

[0:57:10] Voice 3: drawings documents books photographs letters memos emails post-it notes all the things you see right

[0:57:16] Voice 3: So most typically what we get asked for are information associated with bylaw complaints, planning records, land use application and permit files, contracts, requests for proposals, vendor,

[0:57:31] Voice 9: legal opinions,

[0:57:34] Voice 10: and trustee emails.

[0:57:37] Voice 10: Trustee Getty.

[0:57:38] Voice 10: What

[0:57:41] Voice 8: happens if, in between having written it and getting the FOI request, it's been destroyed?

[0:57:49] Voice 8: Then

[0:57:52] Voice 9: it's transitory and if it's not available, it's not available.

[0:57:57] Voice 3: And there is a category of transitory emails or transitory information that's informative and is whatever happens to it, happens to it.

[0:58:09] Voice 3: But emails tends to be, you know, I'll bring David in for the specifics around the, you know, email retention.

[0:58:16] Voice 3: And I have a definition for you here just in a minute around emails that will help you out.

[0:58:23] Voice 3: But, yeah, if something gets destroyed, I mean, I wouldn't actively go around destroying my records associated with your work.

[0:58:29] Voice 3: but and rarely does once again you know risk is liability times consequence all of you at some

[0:58:38] Voice 3: point are going to have an FOI request come from staff based on a citizen's request and this is

[0:58:46] Voice 3: just getting you ready for that moment so here's some advice you can take it if you wish use your

[0:58:53] Voice 3: Your Islands Trust email exclusively for Islands.

[0:58:56] Voice 2: Sorry for interrupting you, Russ.

[0:58:58] Voice 2: A very quick question based on the previous slide.

[0:59:02] Voice 2: Could you provide us at some other time percentages and numbers with respect to the classification you offered for the FOI requests?

[0:59:11] Voice 2: It would be very helpful to really understand things.

[0:59:16] Voice 2: Like

[0:59:16] Voice 3: how much of each gets asked for?

[0:59:18] Voice 2: Yeah, more or less.

[0:59:19] Voice 2: Yes, because my question is really to, I would like to understand how many requests come in with respect to bylaw compliance, for instance.

[0:59:29] Voice 2: Like if it's like 60% of the requests are, but everything

[0:59:33] Voice 2: else is smaller.

[0:59:34] Voice 2: So that's where I'm coming from.

[0:59:36] Voice 2: And I'd appreciate some information about that.

[0:59:39] Voice 2: Thank you.

[0:59:40] Voice 2: Sure.

[0:59:41] Voice 3: We've got that noted.

[0:59:44] Voice 3: keep if you're private possibly sensitive records separate from your islands trust

[0:59:50] Voice 3: email account laptop and cell phone have no expectation of privacy with regards

[0:59:56] Voice 3: records arising out or associated with your responsibilities as a trustee

[1:00:00] Voice 3: the working phrase here is if you wouldn't be happy to see it in the front page of the local

[1:00:05] Voice 3: newspaper don't write it

[1:00:07] Voice 9: down your private correspondence

[1:00:13] Voice 3: that are not received or sent

[1:00:17] Voice 3: by a trustee is not within the scope of the act so you have your private life but emails that are

[1:00:26] Voice 3: sent through your trustee email account or if you use that your personal email for islands trust

[1:00:33] Voice 3: business, you email to somebody on your other account, then FOI would apply.

[1:00:44] Voice 10: A key thing is

[1:00:45] Voice 3: I would recommend you avoid the notion of providing personal opinions about

[1:00:55] Voice 3: various or comments that you would not want to see in a public setting. It has happened

[1:01:01] Voice 3: and it may happen okay

[1:01:07] Voice 10: um

[1:01:11] Voice 3: keep track of your paperwork um i'm now going to sort of just

[1:01:15] Voice 3: moved into the the other part of the records piece and that's uh um the letterhead and um

[1:01:26] Voice 3: some of the trappings of the island's trust we have two types of letterhead one is island's

[1:01:32] Voice 3: trust letterhead it is utilized by resolution of a corporate body so the ltc would pass something

[1:01:38] Voice 3: that says we believe this and we should do that and you would use islands trust letterhead for

[1:01:44] Voice 3: that if you have a personal opinion a personal political opinion as a trustee you have access

[1:01:52] Voice 3: to local trustee letterhead and by so doing you're indicating that this isn't a decision or this isn't

[1:01:57] Voice 3: a view of the local trust committee this is my opinion as a trustee and we can access that

[1:02:03] Voice 3: letterhead for you if you want you can give copies of important documents to staff for filing

[1:02:10] Voice 3: around correspondence and we're happy to keep that on your behalf we've got a

[1:02:20] Voice 3: logo lots of

[1:02:21] Voice 3: different opinions on the logo you know it belongs to the trust council if someone was going to use

[1:02:29] Voice 3: it or a body was going to use it they have to ask us the colors whether you love them or not

[1:02:34] Voice 3: are defined to maintain consistent use so if you're trying to reproduce it just ask staff and

[1:02:40] Voice 3: we'll get you one um if you get an email as a trustee that the person says this is confidential

[1:02:49] Voice 3: to you that can remain

[1:02:52] Voice 9: confidential to you if someone writes the local trust committee and

[1:02:58] Voice 9: says this is confidential that's

[1:03:01] Voice 10: not confidential staff can't receive confidential information

[1:03:15] Voice 3: we operate on behalf of trust council so you repeat that

[1:03:20] Voice 5: confidential piece again i

[1:03:22] Voice 5: Someone

[1:03:23] Voice 3: might write to Trustee Boland and say, I want you to treat this with confidentiality, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

[1:03:32] Voice 3: Trustee Boland could hold that in confidence.

[1:03:36] Voice 3: If someone writes to the local trust committee, that by definition does not become a confident matter of the local trust committee, or it can not be.

[1:03:48] Voice 3: so you can retain a confidential note to you but if it if it's sent to a public if a if a note is

[1:03:56] Voice 3: sent to a public body um it's not as protected so there may be instances where someone's asking for

[1:04:05] Voice 3: so you would say to that person are you sure you want me to send me this um you may want to

[1:04:12] Voice 3: reconsider i can't

[1:04:13] Voice 10: guarantee that it will be confidential so

[1:04:27] Voice 3: not all information received

[1:04:28] Voice 3: can be kept confidential so you would want to clarify this to a sender and they may want to

[1:04:33] Voice 3: withdraw that information individual trustees can receive confidential information but a corporate

[1:04:39] Voice 3: body has less room to do that and as i said before except for myself staff don't receive

[1:04:48] Voice 3: don't receive confidential information that can't be relayed we would relay information to

[1:04:53] Voice 3: to our elected

[1:04:55] Voice 9: officials and so forth um

[1:05:00] Voice 10: okay just this

[1:05:03] Voice 3: uh forward an email that's substantive

[1:05:05] Voice 3: to staff so this provides evidence of decision making commitment on behalf of the islands trust

[1:05:09] Voice 3: so that's a substantive email it's related to formal business it requires a formal decision

[1:05:15] Voice 3: um otherwise there's transitory emails transitories it's a copy it's from staff

[1:05:23] Voice 3: forwarding information to you which is by nature public um or it's facilitating something confirming

[1:05:28] Voice 3: routine meetings just delete all of those things anything that's moving an issue from one thing to

[1:05:33] Voice 3: another you can certainly um do that um we have a standard email signature block hopefully you've

[1:05:40] Voice 3: all accessed it if you haven't we will get it to you

[1:05:43] Voice 9: and yeah that's good i think we've i'll just

[1:05:51] Voice 9: we

[1:05:51] Voice 3: can move into some questions i know this is a lot of information at trust council this was

[1:05:55] Voice 3: set up for a longer time frame and if you wish um we can return to this again um but uh i'll

[1:06:05] Voice 3: just go through legal advice um and inevitably um you'll be becoming become quite familiar with our

[1:06:14] Voice 3: um the protocols associated with legal advice we have a legal advice contract that's with young

[1:06:18] Voice 3: Young Anderson, barristers and solicitors.

[1:06:22] Voice 3: Every number of years, we go out to the marketplace and look at this

[1:06:26] Voice 3: and conduct a review and a public offering.

[1:06:31] Voice 3: Young Anderson has won it the last number of years.

[1:06:35] Voice 3: They, I would argue, probably their legal library or their library

[1:06:39] Voice 3: is more substantive than ours with regards to the Allen's Trust at this point.

[1:06:44] Voice 3: So we have a legal advice contract.

[1:06:46] Voice 3: We have a trust counsel policy.

[1:06:48] Voice 3: associated with it um trust council owns legal opinions and advice is owned by trust council

[1:06:58] Voice 3: trustees may view legal advice full stop unless it's restricted and in the case of restriction

[1:07:07] Voice 3: it may be where a particular trustee is involved in a matter and i can think of fairly few examples

[1:07:15] Voice 3: of where that has been the case we do have a legal advice library and just like trustee bernardo

[1:07:20] Voice 3: earlier asked for um access to a legal opinion i'll go search that library and see if we have

[1:07:25] Voice 3: a specific opinion associated with that and provide it to them before we go out for legal

[1:07:29] Voice 3: advice we check that library so that we're not paying twice for the same thing and then we

[1:07:34] Voice 3: compare that to see whether um the law has moved at all since the last time that that opinion was

[1:07:39] Voice 3: rendered. Occasionally we get advice from other lawyers and EC has to provide the authority to do

[1:07:49] Voice 3: that. Now legal advice is confidential and in camera unless approved for lease by executive

[1:07:58] Voice 3: committee. So you would ask for, the LTC often asks for funding associated with any legal action

[1:08:08] Voice 3: and the financial gatekeepers of that are the executive committee.

[1:08:14] Voice 3: We keep it confidential for fairly obvious reasons

[1:08:17] Voice 3: because we might get into some litigation with the individuals involved.

[1:08:21] Voice 3: We do have a thing here at the Allens Trust that's quite common here,

[1:08:25] Voice 3: but uncommon everywhere else.

[1:08:28] Voice 3: And that's the notion that we get a legal opinion

[1:08:31] Voice 3: and then we say we want to show the public the legal opinion.

[1:08:37] Voice 3: So I don't know any other municipal entity that does this.

[1:08:40] Voice 3: but it happens a lot here it's like proving that we're telling the truth so we've developed a

[1:08:49] Voice 3: mechanism whereby we go back to our lawyers and we say could you provide a public version

[1:08:55] Voice 3: of your legal opinion please and they vet it to ensure they're not providing

[1:09:01] Voice 3: too much prescription in the advice and that comes through executive committee if you're

[1:09:11] Voice 3: a local trust committee and you say oh no the community's up in arms we really want to get

[1:09:15] Voice 3: um we want to release this opinion you would ask executive committee and a version would be

[1:09:21] Voice 3: written for public consumption um keep in mind legal costs and that number um associated with

[1:09:29] Voice 3: the cost is also

[1:09:30] Voice 9: confidential i see we've got trustee boland so just

[1:09:38] Voice 2: uh russ so when uh legal

[1:09:41] Voice 2: advice is sought and then reviewed by the executive committee, I assume they would

[1:09:47] Voice 2: review it in camera. But is there a specific protocol about asking them whether or not this

[1:09:54] Voice 2: advice is to be made available to the trustees, at least, and perhaps beyond? You know, it's not

[1:10:01] Voice 2: just by default unless somebody remembers to question that. And I'm thinking specifically

[1:10:07] Voice 2: of the legal advice that was sought around the election of the executive committee and the timing

[1:10:13] Voice 2: around that, because I believe that was not readily available beyond the executive committee.

[1:10:20] Voice 2: But either way, anyway, I'm just wondering, is there a protocol and a step in that in-camera

[1:10:25] Voice 2: meeting that says, OK, guys, what do you recommend? What's your decision with respect to this

[1:10:31] Voice 2: particular legal opinion thank you

[1:10:33] Voice 3: yes there is um you can request it the challenge we had

[1:10:37] Voice 3: back then was you weren't an elected official at that point so we couldn't release that legal

[1:10:42] Voice 3: opinion yeah

[1:10:44] Voice 2: that's fine i didn't expect

[1:10:46] Voice 3: i didn't well you provided the example and i i i offered

[1:10:50] Voice 2: that it

[1:10:51] Voice 2: wasn't readily available to trustees i thought it was just executive committee but the

[1:10:56] Voice 2: The question still stands, which is, is there a process within that in-camera session to actively say to people, okay, guys, is this appropriate?

[1:11:05] Voice 2: Does it go beyond the executive committee?

[1:11:08] Voice 2: Yes or no?

[1:11:09] Voice 2: Or is it just.

[1:11:10] Voice 3: All trustees have the ability to access legal information.

[1:11:14] Voice 3: So through your LTC, you would say, normally what happens is that the LTC generates the request.

[1:11:22] Voice 3: So they receive that legal opinion.

[1:11:26] Voice 3: And the action, the legal action that follows goes to executive committee for undertaking.

[1:11:39] Voice 3: Right?

[1:11:40] Voice 3: So in camera at an LTC meeting, we need a legal opinion on this.

[1:11:45] Voice 3: You work with your staff to get that legal opinion and you get that information.

[1:11:50] Voice 3: Subsequent to that, you might want to take action associated with that legal opinion, and that might cost $40,000.

[1:11:56] Voice 3: That would then go to the executive committee for consideration.

[1:12:03] Voice 9: um okay i see another question from trustee bernardo

[1:12:08] Voice 3: yeah

[1:12:09] Trustee Bernardo: russ um what i i i'm still

[1:12:13] Trustee Bernardo: recovering from my stunned reaction to realize that um we hand out legal opinions

[1:12:23] Voice 7: what

[1:12:23] Trustee Bernardo: is i mean that's waiving social and client privilege so when you give it away so

[1:12:30] Trustee Bernardo: So it's not unusual that everybody else doesn't do that.

[1:12:37] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, what's the reasoning?

[1:12:40] Trustee Bernardo: Like you mentioned that it's just like to prove that our hands are clean.

[1:12:44] Trustee Bernardo: No offense, but that's a ridiculous reason to be giving out a legal opinion.

[1:12:48] Trustee Bernardo: I mean, what's the real rationale for handing out legal advice?

[1:12:53] Voice 3: Speaking frankly, I don't agree with the practice.

[1:12:57] Voice 3: practice um it is tends to be public pressure on trustees and then the trustees then seek

[1:13:04] Voice 3: um a final determination and often the decision's backed up by a legal opinion

[1:13:09] Voice 3: and the public calls for i want to see the legal opinion and the ltc says well let's get a version

[1:13:16] Voice 3: of it and provide it so

[1:13:18] Trustee Bernardo: trustees don't have the courage of their convictions is that it

[1:13:20] Trustee Bernardo: i

[1:13:21] Voice 3: would never say that in a gathering or an open meeting but i'm just just it's a practice here at

[1:13:27] Voice 3: the trust that is unusual and i'm

[1:13:31] Trustee Bernardo: going to go on record and cut you off and say it's absurd and we

[1:13:33] Trustee Bernardo: ought to stop it but that's enough nobody's going to listen i'll move on thank you okay

[1:13:42] Voice 9: so

[1:13:45] Voice 3: indemnification oh yes that's

[1:13:47] Voice 11: can i add something yes

[1:13:49] Voice 3: and then sadly i have to leave in the next

[1:13:51] Voice 3: five minutes okay

[1:13:53] Voice 11: i'll be brief so i do think that the issue that was just raised around legal

[1:13:58] Voice 11: legal opinions being released or not, is I think it's a little bit of oversimplification to say

[1:14:04] Voice 11: it's pressure, because it's also a desire to be transparent, not necessarily pressured,

[1:14:10] Voice 11: but to be clear on why decisions are being made for the trust. And so if the release of legal

[1:14:17] Voice 11: decisions is not the appropriate mechanism, then I think we as trustees need training,

[1:14:22] Voice 11: because not all of us are lawyers, to understand what is an alternative method of ensuring that we

[1:14:29] Voice 11: have good communication around decision making. Duly noted.

[1:14:39] Voice 3: Okay, so this is my last slide.

[1:14:42] Voice 3: Indemnification. Good news. For almost everything you do, you are indemnified.

[1:14:47] Voice 3: You can make great decisions. And indeed, sometimes decisions that don't, you know,

[1:14:53] Voice 3: maybe history will show aren't so great but you are protected in your decision making function

[1:15:00] Voice 3: for the most part um in doing your work and we will that um the islands trust will indemnify you

[1:15:07] Voice 3: we have an indemnification bylaw the payment of legal defense if it's brought against you would

[1:15:13] Voice 3: be undertaken by the islands trust obviously not if you're doing something that's not the duty of

[1:15:18] Voice 3: a trustee so people go off and they're on trustee business and they rob a bank we won't be covering

[1:15:25] Voice 3: you in that situation um

[1:15:27] Voice 9: and understanding the role

[1:15:32] Voice 3: of a trustee and the limits of your authority

[1:15:36] Voice 3: is also a value um because we wouldn't be able to identify indemnify you um if you're undertaking i

[1:15:43] Voice 3: can't even think what it would be at this point um something that isn't particularly a duty of

[1:15:48] Voice 3: viewers that has less often um been a challenge certainly we have had challenges um or difficult

[1:15:56] Voice 3: conversations with a given trustee and some non-trustee type behavior outcome or life

[1:16:04] Voice 3: moment that they've had um and that also speaks to some of the inter external projects

[1:16:13] Voice 3: um so your legal indemnification wouldn't you know if you're a member of society doing x

[1:16:19] Voice 3: the indemnification comforts that you have at the Allen's Trust may not cover you for the

[1:16:25] Voice 3: actions that you're undertaking as part of some society or something else. So with that, that

[1:16:31] Voice 3: comes to a rather abrupt hour and 15 minutes. Lots of deep thoughts. I'm certainly understanding that

[1:16:37] Voice 3: there's going to be a further conversation around the application of the open meeting rule.

[1:16:43] Voice 3: I do understand that there's some, one of my takeaways is that there's some nuance to that,

[1:16:48] Voice 3: meaning i think we have a pretty good understanding around the ltc situation

[1:16:53] Voice 3: and trust council itself but some more work needs to be done or understood guidelines agreed upon

[1:17:01] Voice 3: with regards some of the subcommittee and committee work look forward to carrying on

[1:17:06] Voice 3: that conversation with you we have two others we're picking up these orientation sessions and

[1:17:10] Voice 3: hoping to not have them during trust council sessions we have another one next thursday on

[1:17:15] Voice 3: local trust committees and with respect some of you might not have been through a land development

[1:17:21] Voice 3: process some of the new trustees and know the specifics around development approval areas and

[1:17:26] Voice 3: dvps and all those types of things and how those decisions are made so that's going to be part of

[1:17:32] Voice 3: the orientation for next week and then i believe the week after that claire freighter is going to

[1:17:37] Voice 3: take you through the website and the mapping function at the islands trust and at that point

[1:17:41] Voice 3: I'm going to survey you and see do we have any gaps or where do we want to dive a little deeper

[1:17:49] Voice 3: and then we'll organize something for a little bit later in this quarter or pick it up in the

[1:17:54] Voice 3: next quarter. Does

[1:17:56] Voice 9: that sound reasonable? Yep. Does anyone have any concluding remarks or are

[1:18:04] Voice 9: we good for this evening? Thank you.

[1:18:08] Voice 9: Trustee Boland. Oh you're saying thumbs up you're not

[1:18:13] Voice 9: asking a question.

[1:18:14] Voice 3: Thank you very much. Thank you all for taking your time this evening hope you

[1:18:19] Voice 3: you think it's valuable and um i look forward to more of this uh as we get into next week and the

[1:18:24] Voice 3: week after thanks laurie really appreciate it

[1:18:27] Voice 7: bye everyone and

[1:18:29] Voice 3: by the way call me if you need

[1:18:31] Voice 3: anything or you want to discuss any of these things further always uh happy to speak with

[1:18:37] Voice 3: any trustee about any matter cheers bye

[1:18:40] Voice 5: thank you thank you