Thetis Island Local Trust Committee regular meeting, March 7, 2023

[0:02:33] Voice 18: Okay, Council, can we reconvene here for our delegations and public comment period?

[0:02:40] Voice 18: It's 7 o'clock.

[0:02:41] Voice 18: Please take your seats.

[0:02:55] Voice 18: Okay, everybody, thank you for coming back.

[0:02:59] Voice 18: I hope you enjoyed your meal.

[0:03:00] Voice 18: It was excellent by my standards.

[0:03:03] Voice 18: And now we're going to roll into delegations and public comments.

[0:03:09] Voice 18: And so we're going to start off by obviously acknowledging that we live and work here in Coast Salish Territory and want to recognize that every moment of my waking being.

[0:03:22] Voice 18: It's an amazing place that we are in. It's so rich in culture and history.

[0:03:27] Voice 18: And in many respects in this part of the world, we're fortunate to have access to that.

[0:03:31] Voice 18: And so we encourage everybody to learn more about our Coast Nations, about the Coast Nations people that have lived here since time immemorial.

[0:03:42] Voice 18: I'm just going to quickly go around the table for the benefit of the audience at home and some of our members of the public that have joined us today.

[0:03:49] Voice 18: And this time I'm going to start at the end of the table with Lee Middleton, just to very quickly introduce yourself for the benefit of the audience at home and those that have joined us here.

[0:03:59] Voice 18: Lee Middleton.

[0:03:59] Voice 18: Hello.

[0:04:01] Voice 28: Thank you for coming, everybody. Lee Middleton, Saturna Island.

[0:04:04] Voice 9: Sue Ellen Fast, Bowen Island, also known as Nuklelequem over in Alkitsam House Hound.

[0:04:13] Voice 9: Kate Louise Stamford, Chaldewich,

[0:04:16] Voice 7: part of Gambier Keats, local trust area.

[0:04:21] Voice 6: Maureen Bowen from Saturna Island.

[0:04:26] Voice 16: Jamie Harris from Salt Spring Island.

[0:04:30] Voice 9: Laura Patrick, Salt Spring Island.

[0:04:33] Voice 9: Christina Evans, South Panda.

[0:04:37] Voice 9: Judy Getty, Bowen Island.

[0:04:39] Voice 9: Lisa Gover, Galliano Island.

[0:04:44] Voice 7: Mikayla Laroni, Laskiti Island, Hoyete.

[0:04:48] Voice 7: Toby Elliott here on Gabriola and it's the name of First Nation Territory.

[0:04:54] Voice 17: Tim Peterson, Hoyete, Laskiti Island.

[0:04:58] Voice 18: And David Graham, I've got your name tag right next door to me so I can remember to call you. Over to you.

[0:05:04] Voice 17: Thank you, Chair Luckham. David Graham, Denman Island, Local Trust Committee.

[0:05:08] Voice 17: Okay.

[0:05:09] Voice 18: And Peter Luckum, Thetis Island Local Trust Committee in Peneliket and Lackson Territory. Pleasure to be here.

[0:05:15] Voice 28: David Maude, Maine Island.

[0:05:17] Voice 18: Ken Hunter, Thetis.

[0:05:21] Voice 28: Sam Borthwick, Denman, Comox First Nations.

[0:05:28] Voice 17: Alex Allen, Horme Island, Comox First Nations.

[0:05:32] Voice 30: Janine Dodds, Maine Island.

[0:05:34] Voice 15: Ben Maberly, Galliano Island.

[0:05:36] Voice 15: Dag Fulks, South Pender.

[0:05:38] Voice 15: Susan

[0:05:39] Voice 5: Yates, Gabriela, Local Trust Area, Home and Traditional Territory of the Snuneymuxq First Nation.

[0:05:48] Voice 28: Grant Scott, Hornby Island.

[0:05:52] Voice 28: Aaron Campbell, North Pender Island.

[0:05:57] Voice 28: Joe Bernardo, Keats Island.

[0:06:00] Voice 11: Deb Morrison, STAS, North Pender Island, WSANISH Territory.

[0:06:05] Voice 18: Very good. Thank you, trustees. It's so nice to have us all in one place.

[0:06:10] Voice 18: Yes. So today we have seven delegations and we're going to start off here with the Gulf Island Alliance regarding climate emergency and biodiversity collapse.

[0:06:21] Voice 18: And past trustee Deb Ferns is here for us today. Over to you, Deb.

[0:06:34] Voice 18: Hello, Deb. Can hear you and see you.

[0:06:37] Voice 27: OK, thanks. Thank you.

[0:06:45] Voice 18: And we're just switching some technology to try and get you up on the screen.

[0:06:49] Voice 18: Okay. Bear with us a second. Sorry

[0:07:03] Voice 18: to keep you waiting, Deb.

[0:07:05] Voice 21: Thank you.

[0:07:26] Voice 18: There we go.

[0:07:28] Voice 18: Looks like we've got you on the screen there now. So Deb Farrins, Gabrielle Island, welcome.

[0:07:33] Voice 18: Over to you. Thank you.

[0:07:35] Voice 27: I'm joining you from the traditional territory of the Sinai people, and I'm ever grateful for

[0:07:41] Voice 27: their care and stewardship of this place. It seems relevant to this presentation to

[0:07:46] Voice 27: mention briefly that an historic global ocean treaty agreement was reached this past weekend

[0:07:53] Voice 27: to place 30 percent of the seas into protected areas by 2030. trustees thank you for this

[0:08:01] Voice 27: opportunity here's a quote unprecedented changes in climate and biodiversity driven by human

[0:08:08] Voice 27: activities have combined and increasingly threatened nature human lives livelihoods

[0:08:15] Voice 27: and well-being around the world. Biodiversity loss and climate change are both driven by human

[0:08:21] Voice 27: economic activities and mutually reinforce each other. Neither will be successfully resolved

[0:08:27] Voice 27: unless both are tackled together, end quote. This is the message of a workshop report published in

[0:08:35] Voice 27: June 2021 by 50 of the world's leading biodiversity and climate experts. The combination of climate

[0:08:43] Voice 27: Climate change and biodiversity loss impacts countries around the world and our local communities.

[0:08:49] Voice 27: Our food supplies, medicines, access to clean and abundant water, clear air, healthy soil, and safe human settlements are threatened by over-exploitation, pollution, deforestation, invasive species, changing rainfall patterns which alter species ranges,

[0:09:10] Voice 27: changes, wildlife habitat loss, melting glaciers, rising sea levels, ocean acidification, droughts,

[0:09:19] Voice 27: and fires. Climate change is a major driver of biodiversity erosion. Loss of biodiversity

[0:09:25] Voice 27: accelerates climate change processes as the capacity of degraded ecosystems to assimilate

[0:09:32] Voice 27: and store CO2 decreases. We have a global and local responsibility to address these two crises

[0:09:40] Voice 27: together in complementary ways. The Gulf Islands Alliance supports the global diversity framework

[0:09:47] Voice 27: signed in Montreal in December 2022, the concrete actions for governments in the Montreal Pledge

[0:09:55] Voice 27: and the Year of the Salish Sea, June 2022 to June 2023.

[0:10:01] Voice 27: The framework features 23 biodiversity targets to achieve by 2030,

[0:10:07] Voice 27: including effective conservation and management of at least 30% of the world's land,

[0:10:13] Voice 27: coastal areas, and oceans, restoration of 30% of terrestrial and marine ecosystems,

[0:10:20] Voice 27: systems and reducing to near zero the loss of areas of high biodiversity importance and high

[0:10:27] Voice 27: ecological integrity. The three categories in the Montreal Pledge to take action include

[0:10:34] Voice 27: reducing threats to biodiversity, sharing the benefits of biodiversity, and looking for

[0:10:40] Voice 27: solutions, governance, management, and education. The Year of the Salish Sea has three broad goals,

[0:10:48] Voice 27: amplifying existing stewardship work and encouraging greater collaboration between

[0:10:53] Voice 27: stakeholders, calling on the members of the public to learn more about the Salish Sea ecosystems

[0:11:00] Voice 27: and shifting towards an ocean-centered way of living, opening windows for effective and

[0:11:08] Voice 27: meaningful policy changes in ocean governance that will support existing ocean-centered work

[0:11:14] Voice 27: and improve the health and management of the Salish Sea.

[0:11:18] Voice 27: The Gulf Islands in the Trust Area are neither remote nor isolated from ongoing and significant

[0:11:26] Voice 27: development and land use pressures that threaten ecosystems and livelihoods. Over 7 million people

[0:11:33] Voice 27: live within the drainage basin of the Salish Sea from Nanaimo to Vancouver to Tacoma. Between 1991

[0:11:42] Voice 27: In 1991 and 2019, the Salish Sea bioregions population increased by more than 50% from approximately 5,700,000 to just under 9 million.

[0:11:53] Voice 27: And of that increase, 34% occurred in the Greater Vancouver Regional District alone.

[0:12:00] Voice 27: By the year 2040, we can expect the population in the Salish Sea to expand to over 10.5 million people.

[0:12:09] Voice 27: people. The imperative to protect the trust area's ecosystems and biodiversity is a further urgent

[0:12:16] Voice 27: concern given that eastern Vancouver Island has been named one of nine of Canada's eco-crisis

[0:12:24] Voice 27: regions by the Nature Conservancy of Canada. The Gulf Islands Alliance believes that the

[0:12:29] Voice 27: Islands Trust has a duty of care to address the climate change emergency and biodiversity collapse

[0:12:35] Voice 27: at the highest level of attention for these following reasons.

[0:12:40] Voice 27: It is a special purpose government mandated to preserve and protect

[0:12:43] Voice 27: over 450 islands in the Salish Sea.

[0:12:47] Voice 27: The province created the Islands Trust in 1974

[0:12:50] Voice 27: in response to the environmental effects of dense residential subdivisions

[0:12:56] Voice 27: and increasing development pressures.

[0:12:58] Voice 27: The object of the trust to preserve and protect

[0:13:01] Voice 27: extends to the benefit of the residents of BC,

[0:13:05] Voice 27: as well as the residents of the trust area.

[0:13:08] Voice 27: The object to preserve and protect is undertaken in cooperation with municipalities,

[0:13:14] Voice 27: regional districts, improvement districts, First Nations,

[0:13:17] Voice 27: and other persons and organizations, and the government of British Columbia.

[0:13:21] Voice 27: Trust Council has an interest in and historical commitment to advocacy

[0:13:27] Voice 27: on issues important to the entire region of the Salish Sea.

[0:13:31] Voice 27: And in 2019, Trust Council adopted the Climate Emergency Declaration and the Reconciliation Declaration.

[0:13:42] Voice 27: Achieving sustainable outcomes and avoiding existential threats becomes progressively easier

[0:13:49] Voice 27: when integrating a mix of actions at larger spatial scales through cross-border collaboration

[0:13:56] Voice 27: and joint consultative planning with other levels of governments, the stewards in our island communities, and particularly with First Nations in the Trust Area.

[0:14:07] Voice 27: As the land use regulator of the Trust Area, with established cross-jurisdictional influences,

[0:14:15] Voice 27: the opportunity exists for the Islands Trust to take a leadership role in reconciliation, climate action, and preserving biodiversity.

[0:14:25] Voice 27: diversity. The Gulf Islands Alliance believes that this is the critical work of the trust now

[0:14:32] Voice 27: and into the future. And just in conclusion, the Gulf Islands Alliance is a non-profit grassroots

[0:14:39] Voice 27: organization actively dedicated to the protection of the natural environment and habitats of BC's

[0:14:46] Voice 27: Gulf Islands for now and future generation, and the Gulf Islands Alliance supports the Islands

[0:14:52] Voice 27: Islands Trust Federation in achieving its legislative object.

[0:14:57] Voice 27: Thank you very much, trustees.

[0:14:59] Voice 27: So

[0:15:04] Voice 18: thank you, Deb, for joining us today.

[0:15:07] Voice 18: And I'll just ask trustees if you have any questions for the delegate.

[0:15:11] Voice 18: No, it looks like you've answered all the questions in your presentation.

[0:15:18] Voice 18: Good work. Thank you very much.

[0:15:19] Voice 18: And thank you for your support of the

[0:15:20] Voice 18: Islands Trust with the Gulf Island Alliance.

[0:15:23] Voice 18: Thank you.

[0:15:25] Voice 18: I'm going to go to my next speaker, who I believe is also online.

[0:15:29] Voice 18: line, and it's Rain Coast Conservation Foundation, and adopting the goals in the Montreal Pledge

[0:15:36] Voice 18: is Shauna Dahl, I believe, on North Pender Island, if I'm not mistaken. Over to you, Shauna. Welcome.

[0:15:43] Voice 1: Thank you. Can you hear me?

[0:15:45] Voice 18: I can hear you.

[0:15:47] Voice 1: Perfect. Good evening, trustees, and thank you

[0:15:49] Voice 1: for having me. I'm joining you virtually today from my home office located on the unceded

[0:15:53] Voice 1: territory of the Osanian Nations. This is my first delegation since the most recent election,

[0:15:57] Voice 1: So for those with whom I'm not yet acquainted, my name is Shawna Dahl.

[0:16:01] Voice 1: I'm a settler person originally from Treaty 8 Territory.

[0:16:04] Voice 1: I work as the Forest Conservation Program Director for Raincoast Conservation Foundation.

[0:16:09] Voice 1: This work focuses on enhancing protection of and stewardship within coastal Douglas

[0:16:14] Voice 1: Fir forests and associated habitats characteristic of the Gulf Islands

[0:16:17] Voice 1: and surrounding areas bordering the Salish Sea.

[0:16:20] Voice 1: I've joined you tonight to talk about biodiversity and our collective responsibility for protecting it.

[0:16:26] Voice 1: Next slide please. British Columbia is the most biodiverse province in Canada,

[0:16:33] Voice 1: yet as of 2019, 1,807 species were in decline and 278 were at risk of extinction. There's currently

[0:16:42] Voice 1: no species at risk legislation in place in BC and the federal species at risk act has proven

[0:16:48] Voice 1: to be inadequate with the status of over 370 of the 455 species evaluated more than once,

[0:16:56] Voice 1: staying the same or declining since being listed unfortunately this level of loss is being observed

[0:17:02] Voice 1: across the planet during the most recent un biodiversity conference in montreal it was

[0:17:07] Voice 1: acknowledged that the stakes could not be higher the planet is experiencing a dangerous decline

[0:17:12] Voice 1: in natural in nature as a result of human activity it's experiencing its largest loss of life since

[0:17:19] Voice 1: the dinosaurs one million planet animal species are now threatened with extinction many within

[0:17:24] Voice 1: within decades. The science is clear. According to the IPCC, without action to slow or altogether

[0:17:30] Voice 1: halt the destruction of forests and other vital ecosystems, we will not meet the 1.5 degrees

[0:17:35] Voice 1: Celsius target by 2030. In response to this urgent need to protect biodiversity, in December 2022,

[0:17:42] Voice 1: nearly 190 countries, including Canada, collectively committed to protecting 30%

[0:17:48] Voice 1: of the Earth's land and oceans by 2030. Next slide, please. The Montreal Pledge. To address

[0:17:55] Voice 1: this commitment on a local scale, the host city of COP15 invited local governments from across

[0:18:00] Voice 1: the globe to sign on to the Montreal Pledge, a 15 action framework geared towards halting

[0:18:05] Voice 1: biodiversity loss. Next slide please. Cities across the globe including Vancouver have committed to

[0:18:12] Voice 1: the Montreal Pledge and though the Islands Trust is clearly not representative of cities, most

[0:18:19] Voice 1: goals outlined in the pledge are highly relevant to land use planning and decision making in this

[0:18:24] Voice 1: context. The goals fall under three major themes, reducing threats to biodiversity, sharing the

[0:18:30] Voice 1: benefits of biodiversity, and governance management and education. A full list of these goals has been

[0:18:36] Voice 1: provided in my last slide for trustee and trust resident consideration, but I won't go over all

[0:18:41] Voice 1: of them here. Some of the most relevant goals to the trust area include integrating biodiversity

[0:18:46] Voice 1: into territorial and regulatory planning, integrating biodiversity into governance

[0:18:51] Voice 1: frameworks and public policies and increasing financial resources allocated to conservation

[0:18:56] Voice 1: and sustainable use and prioritizing nature-based solutions to protect against extreme weather

[0:19:02] Voice 1: events and hazards and to regulate air and water quality. It's important to note that though the

[0:19:08] Voice 1: participation of Indigenous people in biodiversity enhancement is nested within the 15 actions

[0:19:13] Voice 1: outlined in this pledge, it's encouraged that such partnership is established as a first priority

[0:19:18] Voice 1: and thus informs the pursual of all other actions outlined.

[0:19:21] Voice 1: Next slide, please.

[0:19:23] Voice 1: So bringing this back to the trust.

[0:19:25] Voice 1: According to the BC Conservation Data Center,

[0:19:28] Voice 1: the Coastal Douglas Fir Zone contains more species at risk

[0:19:31] Voice 1: than any other ecological zone in BC.

[0:19:33] Voice 1: This includes 25 globally imperiled species

[0:19:36] Voice 1: and over 200 species that are provincially classified

[0:19:40] Voice 1: as imperiled or threatened.

[0:19:41] Voice 1: As mentioned at the beginning of this presentation,

[0:19:43] Voice 1: BC currently has no provincial species at risk legislation

[0:19:46] Voice 1: and the federal species at risk act has achieved limited results while more effective policy in

[0:19:53] Voice 1: this realm would be welcome in the past three decades conservation ecologists have recognized

[0:19:57] Voice 1: that centering ecological recovery efforts on just one or a few endangered species often overlooks

[0:20:04] Voice 1: the ecosystem as a whole so while the recovery of individual threatened and endangered species

[0:20:09] Voice 1: within the cdf region is a vital goal the pathway to achieving that goal lies in landscape level

[0:20:15] Voice 1: approaches. And more often than not, as demonstrated by a growing body of literature

[0:20:21] Voice 1: on the subject, local governance structures will be pivotal in the implementation of such

[0:20:27] Voice 1: measures on the ground. With your jurisdiction over such a significant portion of the extent of

[0:20:33] Voice 1: the CDF, paired with your unique preserve and protect mandate, the trust is uniquely positioned

[0:20:38] Voice 1: to pursue widespread and impactfully called ecological protection in this region. At this

[0:20:44] Voice 1: point in the presentation, I do think it's important to mention that this region has

[0:20:47] Voice 1: been repeatedly recognized as an area of high conservation priority. The very existence of

[0:20:52] Voice 1: the trust is a testament to that fact, complemented by conservation priority, carbon stock, and

[0:20:58] Voice 1: biodiversity assessments, among other studies. And while it recently has been pointed out that

[0:21:03] Voice 1: similar ecological communities do exist south of the Canadian border, this is not a justification

[0:21:08] Voice 1: for inaction here in BC. This would be akin to justifying clear cutting in the Great Bear

[0:21:13] Voice 1: rainforest on bc's central coast because temperate rainforests exist elsewhere on the planet or to

[0:21:19] Voice 1: give up efforts to protect genetically and culturally distinct southern resident killer

[0:21:23] Voice 1: whales in the salish sea because northern residents live in nearby waters or to stop

[0:21:28] Voice 1: investing in health care in canada because there are not-for-profit health clinics across the

[0:21:32] Voice 1: border we don't expect the u.s to assume our responsibilities for other obligations why would

[0:21:38] Voice 1: would we expect they would assume this one? There's always somewhere else to protect until

[0:21:43] Voice 1: there isn't. We have a responsibility to protect what's in our power to protect. Adopting the

[0:21:49] Voice 1: Montreal Pledge will help guide such protections and might kickstart action towards some of the

[0:21:53] Voice 1: other declarations made by the Trust over the past three years, including the Reconciliation

[0:21:56] Voice 1: Declaration, the Climate Emergency Declaration, and the unanimously passed motion to declare

[0:22:03] Voice 1: June 2022 to June 2023, the year of the Salish Sea, at the March Trust Council meeting almost

[0:22:08] Voice 1: exactly a year ago today. In compliment to the adoption of the Montreal Pledge, I encourage

[0:22:13] Voice 1: Trust Council to continue to pursue the implementation of land use planning tools like

[0:22:18] Voice 1: bylaws and environmental DPAs, neither of which have to be ultimatum-like tools, but rather are

[0:22:24] Voice 1: highly customizable to the contexts and ecosystems to which they are intended to apply. But of course,

[0:22:30] Voice 1: combating biodiversity loss is not a set it and forget it endeavor. Even if the Trust should adopt

[0:22:35] Voice 1: the Montreal Pledge today, the expectation should not be that if we protect 30% of ecosystems on

[0:22:40] Voice 1: each island in the Trust area, we'll be out of the woods, so to speak. In fact, that 30% figure has

[0:22:47] Voice 1: been described by many as a floor, not a ceiling. I'm proposing this pledge to you as a roadmap

[0:22:52] Voice 1: towards incorporating an ecological ethos into land use planning in the Trust area now and into

[0:22:58] Voice 1: to the future. In the words of renowned conservation biologist Dr. Reid Noss, biology, the science of

[0:23:05] Voice 1: life and planning, for example, regional planning or land use planning, have been considered totally

[0:23:09] Voice 1: separate disciplines pursued by different people with different training and different interests,

[0:23:14] Voice 1: but at a time when the ecological integrity of earth is declining rapidly and human land use is

[0:23:21] Voice 1: the major cause of this decline, effective conservation requires that we bring biology

[0:23:25] Voice 1: and planning together.

[0:23:27] Voice 1: This convergence is necessary,

[0:23:29] Voice 1: not just for planning networks of parks and protected areas,

[0:23:32] Voice 1: but for planning and locating human activities generally.

[0:23:36] Voice 1: Next slide.

[0:23:37] Voice 1: Thank you so much for your time

[0:23:39] Voice 1: and I welcome any questions you might have,

[0:23:40] Voice 1: or if you would like to contact me in a separate realm,

[0:23:43] Voice 1: you're welcome to email me at this address here.

[0:23:46] Voice 1: Thank you.

[0:23:50] Voice 18: So thank you very much, Shauna,

[0:23:52] Voice 18: for your presentation today.

[0:23:53] Voice 18: And I'll just turn to trustees

[0:23:55] Voice 18: to see if they have any questions for you.

[0:23:57] Voice 18: And certainly thank you for the opportunity to reach out by email.

[0:24:00] Voice 18: So I see Trustee Elliott has a question for you and Dag Falk from South Bend.

[0:24:06] Voice 7: Thank you for your presentation.

[0:24:10] Voice 7: Do you have any examples of local governments or planning areas that are actually integrating environmental protection with land use planning in a really holistic way?

[0:24:22] Voice 7: Is there any examples that we can look to?

[0:24:25] Voice 1: There are some local governments that are doing quite a good job.

[0:24:27] Voice 1: I know, for example, Courtney has a pretty well integrated tree cutting bylaw, along with a whole bunch of other planning mechanisms.

[0:24:38] Voice 1: Gibson's BC is another great example. And I'm actually putting together a report on this particular issue.

[0:24:44] Voice 1: And I'd be happy to share it with you when it's complete.

[0:24:48] Voice 7: Great. Thank you.

[0:24:49] Voice 18: Thank you. Dag Falk, South Bender.

[0:24:52] Voice 15: Yeah, thank you.

[0:24:52] Voice 15: probably the same kind of question just do you have uh more specifics uh you

[0:25:00] Voice 15: know actions that

[0:25:00] Voice 15: you see that we could do uh and the mechanisms that we have uh the availability of to use to

[0:25:07] Voice 15: achieve some of the the you know the things that you mentioned that we need to address

[0:25:12] Voice 15: yeah

[0:25:14] Voice 1: i think that oh

[0:25:15] Voice 15: sorry go ahead so in other words just you know how how how do you think we

[0:25:19] Voice 15: we can do this?

[0:25:21] Voice 1: I think it's really important to take a really nested approach to all of this.

[0:25:25] Voice 1: I think that it's not just one thing or the other. It's about having a really comprehensive

[0:25:30] Voice 1: education program and having that be complemented by environmental DPAs and other different types of

[0:25:37] Voice 1: legislation and regulation, along with maybe some incentives for local landowners.

[0:25:44] Voice 1: So I think that it would be really helpful to look at the 15 different goals that are laid out in the Montreal Pledge. It is in the agenda package, I believe, as one of the slides from my presentation, and it might be easier to break it down on a case-by-case basis based on those goals in that Montreal Pledge.

[0:26:04] Voice 18: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Oh, Deb Morrison, North Pender.

[0:26:10] Voice 18: Thank

[0:26:10] Voice 11: you, Shauna, for your presentation. You said one sentence in there and it flew by,

[0:26:16] Voice 11: so I just want to give you a second to just expand on it and unpack the acronym.

[0:26:19] Voice 11: You said IPCC say we need to halt a rigorous force to meet the 1.5 degree targets. Can you

[0:26:25] Voice 11: just expand on

[0:26:26] Voice 1: that? Yeah. Let me go back to my line so that I can reiterate it for you verbatim.

[0:26:36] Voice 1: uh according to the ipcc without action to slow or altogether halt destruction of forests and

[0:26:41] Voice 1: other vital ecosystems we will not meet the 1.5 degrees celsius target by 2030 the one point

[0:26:47] Voice 1: one point five degrees celsius target is a target that was set um by leading global experts

[0:26:56] Voice 1: on the subject um to basically 1.5 degrees is where we can hit without experiencing extreme

[0:27:04] Voice 1: extreme, kind of irrevocable damages from climate change. So that is our absolute target. Of course,

[0:27:12] Voice 1: a lot of scientists are now saying that that is a overly optimistic target and two degrees of

[0:27:17] Voice 1: warming is almost guaranteed to be baked in already. But I don't think that that should

[0:27:23] Voice 1: dissuade us from trying to take really meaningful action now to get as close to 1.5 degrees Celsius

[0:27:27] Voice 1: as possible. I hope that answers your question. Thank you.

[0:27:34] Voice 18: Okay, thank you very much. And I think

[0:27:37] Voice 18: two degrees baked in that's not meant to be a pun no it's not

[0:27:41] Voice 1: it's a very sad pun i'm sorry

[0:27:45] Voice 18: okay um jamie harris salt spring island thank

[0:27:49] Voice 16: you shauna for the uh wonderful presentation

[0:27:54] Voice 16: so i heard you just say that we need to halt any um any more forestry activity is that kind of what

[0:28:04] Voice 16: I'm picking up there or something along those lines in the no

[0:28:08] Voice 1: not not at all I what I said was

[0:28:10] Voice 1: halt the destruction of forests and I think that that's a really key distinction that there are

[0:28:16] Voice 1: ways to practice sustainable and ecologically informed forestry you don't have it doesn't

[0:28:23] Voice 1: have to be destruction of forests in order to have forestry activities so

[0:28:28] Voice 16: I don't know if we

[0:28:31] Voice 16: We actually see the destruction at this point from my eyes.

[0:28:36] Voice 16: How do you feel about telling local First Nations people

[0:28:40] Voice 16: who work in the logging industry and have been for their whole lives

[0:28:46] Voice 16: and whose families haven't left the islands for thousands of years

[0:28:50] Voice 16: and people who see the vigorous growth of the CDF

[0:28:52] Voice 16: and realize that the forestry activities as practiced now

[0:28:56] Voice 16: are more than sustainable?

[0:28:58] Voice 16: I

[0:29:00] Voice 1: think that there's a lot of opportunities for us to all work together. I'm working with a few different groups right now on how to better practice long-term ecological forestry and practice fire resilience.

[0:29:13] Voice 1: I think that there's a lot of opportunities for us to all work collaboratively to make sure that that is always the norm and that we aren't seeing the destruction of forests in this area.

[0:29:26] Voice 18: Thank you.

[0:29:29] Voice 18: Thank you again for the question and answer. Any other questions here on the floor?

[0:29:35] Voice 18: May I read Boland from Saturna?

[0:29:39] Voice 6: Hello Shauna. Thank you for your presentation. Do you make these presentations to other local

[0:29:45] Voice 6: governments in the Salish Sea area? Thank you.

[0:29:50] Voice 1: Sometimes I do. I focus mostly on the Gulf Islands because the preserve and protect mandate means

[0:29:56] Voice 1: means that I think that if we can do it here, it feels really possible.

[0:30:00] Voice 1: to do it elsewhere. I think it's a great place to model this work, but there are certainly other

[0:30:05] Voice 1: municipalities that I work with.

[0:30:10] Voice 18: Thank you. Anything else? No. Okay. Well,

[0:30:15] Voice 18: thank you for joining us again, Shauna, and I

[0:30:18] Voice 22: appreciate

[0:30:19] Voice 18: the effort. I'm going to go to my next

[0:30:23] Voice 18: speaker now, which is David Dunnison regarding valid and invalid information. And David,

[0:30:31] Voice 18: David, you can take the podium up there.

[0:30:33] Voice 18: And I appreciate that you've made the effort to join us in person today.

[0:30:36] Voice 18: That's not an insignificant challenge, as I know many of the trustees can attest to.

[0:30:42] Voice 18: So welcome, David.

[0:30:43] Voice 18: And we'll turn the floor over to you.

[0:32:01] Voice 12: Okay.

[0:32:02] Voice 12: Well, thank you, Chair Luckham.

[0:32:04] Voice 12: And thank you, trustees.

[0:32:06] Voice 12: It's a privilege and a pleasure to be here today and actually present in person.

[0:32:13] Voice 12: As Chair Luckham indicated, you also hear an echo or is that just me?

[0:32:21] Voice 12: Just you, I think.

[0:32:23] Voice 18: It's coming off the computer.

[0:32:24] Voice 18: Okay.

[0:32:25] Voice 18: You might want to mute your computer audio.

[0:32:33] Voice 14: Come on back.

[0:32:46] Voice 12: Okay.

[0:32:46] Voice 12: Thank you again.

[0:32:48] Voice 12: Before I get started, I'd like to introduce Dr. John, who has accompanied me here today.

[0:32:53] Voice 12: Dr. John is in the back there.

[0:32:55] Voice 12: Dr. Sally John has a Ph.D. in forestry and genetics and has been practicing forest genesis for decades.

[0:33:03] Voice 12: Dr. John is also a member of the Douglas Fir Science Working Group on Salt Spring Island for the Salt Spring Local Trust Committee.

[0:33:11] Voice 12: More than a year prior to my presentation on extent of the CDF zone, Dr. John sent a letter to trustees and staff regarding invalid claims that were found in the CDF toolkit.

[0:33:26] Voice 12: regarding the extent of the CDF zone and that it, quote, was found nowhere else in the world.

[0:33:32] Voice 12: In her letter, Dr. John observed, in public communication, it is crucial to ensure

[0:33:37] Voice 12: factual integrity. Her statement then perfectly sums up my presentation today. Dr. John will be

[0:33:46] Voice 12: available after this, and that letter can still be found on the Island's Trust website. I just

[0:33:51] Voice 12: just checked just the other day.

[0:33:55] Voice 14: Okay, that didn't work.

[0:33:57] Voice 14: How about that?

[0:33:57] Voice 14: Nope.

[0:33:59] Voice 14: How about that?

[0:34:02] Voice 14: Okay, we're not, the slides aren't moving.

[0:34:04] Voice 14: About to go on to the, shouldn't.

[0:34:16] Voice 14: Okay, thanks.

[0:34:19] Voice 12: Thank you.

[0:34:24] Voice 12: Valid, please allow me to read directly from the slide.

[0:34:27] Voice 12: Valid information is factually correct,

[0:34:30] Voice 12: is based on data that can be confirmed,

[0:34:33] Voice 12: and is not misleading in any way.

[0:34:35] Voice 12: Invalid information includes inaccurate, incomplete, manipulated, false, incorrect,

[0:34:42] Voice 12: and otherwise unsustainable information. Awesome. Over the past year or so, I've provided three

[0:34:53] Voice 12: presentations to the Islands Trust. These presentations were on a singular theme.

[0:34:58] Voice 12: That theme is extensive invalid information that can be found throughout Islands Trust materials.

[0:35:05] Voice 12: In the next few slides, we'll do a quick review of these three presentations.

[0:35:08] Voice 12: First up is the extent of the CDF zone.

[0:35:13] Voice 12: The CDF zone is not unique to the Island Trust area,

[0:35:17] Voice 12: nor is it unique to British Columbia.

[0:35:19] Voice 12: The CDF zone is centered in the US

[0:35:21] Voice 12: and the bulk of this extent can be found there.

[0:35:26] Voice 12: The second presentation was on biodiversity in the IT area.

[0:35:30] Voice 12: Now, I'd like to thank the two presenters

[0:35:32] Voice 12: that came before me.

[0:35:34] Voice 12: This is working great.

[0:35:38] Voice 12: Deb Ferencz from Gulf Islands Alliance

[0:35:40] Voice 12: and Sean Adol from Raincoast.

[0:35:41] Voice 12: And directly and indirectly,

[0:35:44] Voice 12: They were referencing this important research that I presented to Trust Council March of last year.

[0:35:51] Voice 12: Eastern Vancouver Island, as Deb indicated, and the Lower Mainland have been categorized as crisis ecoregions.

[0:35:57] Voice 12: The island's trust area is special.

[0:36:00] Voice 12: It is in a separate ecoregion, the Georgia-Puget Basin.

[0:36:04] Voice 12: Like the CDF zone, our ecoregion extends well into the U.S.

[0:36:10] Voice 12: Unlike our neighbors, however, we've done a much better job at protecting our area and have met Canada's UN commitment of 20% protection, and our islands are over 75% forested.

[0:36:23] Voice 12: Given our island nature, as indicated by this research or confirmed by this research, we do have lower biodiversity, and that's just the nature of being an island archipelago.

[0:36:34] Voice 12: The third presentation was on carbon storage and all the new trustees and everybody in this room was probably present for that.

[0:36:46] Voice 12: And the statements that claim we have a sizable advantage in carbon sequestration and storage are invalid.

[0:36:53] Voice 12: Our low precipitation, along with our typical summer drought, restricts our growing season, the amount of growth and fundamentally the amount of carbon storage.

[0:37:03] Voice 12: This slide is new and is being presented to council today for the first time.

[0:37:09] Voice 12: Even our soils are at a disadvantage when it comes to stored carbon.

[0:37:12] Voice 12: The west coast of Vancouver Island has double the amount of carbon found in the soils as we have here.

[0:37:17] Voice 12: And even, you can see from this slide, the Sandwich Peninsula has a slight advantage when it comes to stored carbon.

[0:37:24] Voice 12: That doesn't mean we have no stored carbon or that we're not storing a lot of carbon,

[0:37:29] Voice 12: but we are not the best when it comes to storing carbon.

[0:37:31] Voice 12: Following these three presentations,

[0:37:37] Voice 12: Islands Trust Council passed motions to follow up and correct materials on two of,

[0:37:42] Voice 12: regarding the subject of two of those presentations.

[0:37:46] Voice 12: And these next slides discuss those activities.

[0:37:50] Voice 12: And I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank staff for making this one change.

[0:37:56] Voice 12: And again, hold it up. Do the CDF toolkit.

[0:37:58] Voice 12: look at. Now, anticipating that there might be a desire for additional information prior to making

[0:38:07] Voice 12: further changes, I contracted Madrone Environmental Services to conduct a comparison of carbon

[0:38:13] Voice 12: storage between forests in the Islands Trust area and forests outside the Islands Trust area that

[0:38:18] Voice 12: are within the CDF zone. I selected Madrone as they've been the fundamental source of ecosystem

[0:38:24] Voice 12: mapping information for the Islands Trust going back at least 15 years. And the work that was

[0:38:30] Voice 12: was done for the Islands Trust in 2014 was based on the material that Madrone had put together.

[0:38:36] Voice 12: This newest Madrone analysis definitively confirms that the forests in the Islands Trust area

[0:38:41] Voice 12: are largely consistent in the amount of carbon they store as compared to CDF forests

[0:38:46] Voice 12: outside the islands area. Not surprisingly, there's no special advantage. And the key is

[0:38:52] Voice 12: that it was evaluated on the basis of stand age.

[0:38:57] Voice 12: Forest age directly drives carbon storage.

[0:39:02] Voice 12: If you don't take into account stand age,

[0:39:04] Voice 12: the age of the forest, you will be misled.

[0:39:08] Voice 12: This Madrone report thus refutes the invalid information

[0:39:11] Voice 12: found in the Island Trust Schuster Report

[0:39:13] Voice 12: and as is widely claimed in Island's Trust materials.

[0:39:18] Voice 12: I'd also like to acknowledge that IT staff

[0:39:21] Voice 12: presented a request to provincial staff

[0:39:23] Voice 12: that was commendable for how well it asked this question

[0:39:26] Voice 12: and in the examples that were cited.

[0:39:28] Voice 12: Thank you.

[0:39:30] Voice 12: This is a perfect question.

[0:39:32] Voice 12: Unfortunately, the response was not as perfect.

[0:39:38] Voice 12: The response did not answer the question.

[0:39:41] Voice 12: No experts were provided, no review of each statement,

[0:39:48] Voice 12: and no recommendations for change.

[0:39:49] Voice 12: And this is true where one of the statements was really a gimme,

[0:39:54] Voice 12: me. And that was that the claim that the CDF zone only exists within the island's trust area.

[0:40:01] Voice 12: And hopefully everybody in this room recognizes that probably isn't true. Now, these provincial

[0:40:10] Voice 12: staff experts can confirm that the island's trust statements on the range of the CDF zone are

[0:40:15] Voice 12: invalid. Preparing for today's presentation, I reached out to these experts and many others.

[0:40:21] Voice 12: Their insights are provided in the supplement that was sent out to you via email

[0:40:25] Voice 12: yesterday afternoon. I have a copy here if somebody needs one, but I trust you have it.

[0:40:30] Voice 12: And it's lengthy. I appreciate it. When I contacted Del Mettinger, author of Ecosystems of BC,

[0:40:36] Voice 12: this book here, and this is my signed copy, and explained my concerns to him,

[0:40:45] Voice 12: Del looked at me and said, the CDF is not unique to Canada. And then he asked, have they seen my

[0:40:52] Voice 12: map. And that map is on the left here. It's a little small in this slide, but it's in the

[0:40:59] Voice 12: materials you've seen. And it illustrates that the CDF zone extends all the way into California. Now,

[0:41:06] Voice 12: I grayed out the region around it. There are other BEC zones, but focusing on the CDF does

[0:41:11] Voice 12: extend into California. Now, given the many updates that are currently underway for virtually all of

[0:41:17] Voice 12: the BEC materials, we can expect to see a lot more of this map. But let's step back for a second

[0:41:24] Voice 12: and ask ourselves, what is the BEC? The Biogeoclimatic Ecosystem Classification System

[0:41:31] Voice 12: is far more than a description of ecosystems. The BEC is, and I quote, the legally required basis

[0:41:38] Voice 12: for forest management planning in the province. The BEC is used by at least three ministries and

[0:41:44] Voice 12: is embedded in their legislation. Thus, the BEC report guides and BEC research are held to a high

[0:42:02] Voice 12: standard, a legislative standard. And that begs the question, what standard should the

[0:42:08] Voice 12: honest trust apply for its policy and planning documents like the CDF toolkit? In the Q&A

[0:42:16] Voice 12: following the last presentation, I was asked if I was concerned that invalid statements

[0:42:20] Voice 12: were being used in the context of donation campaigns. The answer is yes, it's clear from

[0:42:25] Voice 12: the website. And this is a concern. It appears that there could be hundreds of donate buttons

[0:42:31] Voice 12: on the Honest Trust website, having done the Google searches to try and determine exactly

[0:42:35] Voice 12: how many there are. And those donate buttons are found in conjunction with extensive invalid

[0:42:41] Voice 12: statements. Now, I'd like to go back and repeat the quote from Dr. John that I started with.

[0:42:55] Voice 12: In public communication, it is crucial to ensure factual integrity.

[0:43:00] Voice 12: The examples of invalid statements in Islands Trust materials, however, go well beyond just public communication.

[0:43:06] Voice 12: As we've seen, they're being used in donation campaigns.

[0:43:10] Voice 12: And as illustrated, these invalid statements have been integral to the justification found in the CDF toolkit for its, and I quote,

[0:43:20] Voice 12: foundational direction to local trust committees to amend OCPs, land use bylaws, DPAs, and implement

[0:43:30] Voice 12: new EPAs. I strongly urge the Islands Trust to stop relying on invalid statements for such

[0:43:36] Voice 12: critical activities and to conduct a thorough review and remove these invalid statements.

[0:43:41] Voice 12: Going forward, the simplest remedy and best recommendation I can make is to rely on these

[0:43:48] Voice 12: materials that staff if if there's a statement that does not agree with what's in here it is

[0:43:56] Voice 12: probably invalid i'm not the expert they are thank you very much thank

[0:44:03] Voice 18: you very much david um so i'm

[0:44:06] Voice 18: going to turn to trustees to see if there's any questions i'm noticing that both trustees from

[0:44:10] Voice 18: salt spring have some questions your local trustees so i'll let you tag team that there we

[0:44:24] Voice 8: Thank you, David. And thank you, Sally, and your partner for traveling up here on a dark evening to Nanaimo. I understand and I hear, you know, factual integrities and all of these words and not very motivational.

[0:44:44] Voice 8: educational um i also out of curiosity just wanted to see who else refers to rare and unique

[0:44:53] Voice 8: here uh for coastal douglas for discounting conservancies and a quick google search i found

[0:45:01] Voice 8: 16 municipalities regional districts and universities in this region that refer to it so

[0:45:06] Voice 8: it's not just the islands trust but my question to you is like i said factual integrity and things

[0:45:12] Voice 8: are just not motivators to me, those words.

[0:45:16] Voice 8: Values are.

[0:45:18] Voice 8: And I ask you what your values are,

[0:45:21] Voice 8: what you would say the values for the forest integrity

[0:45:24] Voice 8: or forests in Salt Spring.

[0:45:26] Voice 8: I won't say all of Island's Trust because we live on Salt Spring.

[0:45:29] Voice 8: And the second question would be, how healthy are they right now?

[0:45:35] Voice 14: Okay.

[0:45:39] Voice 12: I switched tracks in university and went into forestry

[0:45:42] Voice 12: because I found out that I could get good marks

[0:45:44] Voice 12: by walking through the forest.

[0:45:47] Voice 12: I love the forest, and I moved to Salt Spring because we're in the forest.

[0:45:52] Voice 12: My partner has been very kind to allow this indulgence.

[0:45:59] Voice 12: And I am an avid naturalist, one of the top identifiers of plants on Salt Spring.

[0:46:08] Voice 12: The state of our forest is a concern.

[0:46:11] Voice 12: Unfortunately, I'm not the expert I wish I was, but I do appreciate, for example,

[0:46:15] Voice 12: the seminar that you helped create our, well, you provided the closing statement last week

[0:46:25] Voice 12: on wildfire issues in the Honest Trust area. And there were a number of staff and trustees on that.

[0:46:33] Voice 12: And it was, as much as I think I'm concerned, I was even more concerned following that seminar

[0:46:40] Voice 12: when perhaps the best speaker, the one I listened to the most, started describing

[0:46:45] Voice 12: nightmare scenarios and tree deserts, forest deserts, we have issues. We can do a better

[0:46:54] Voice 12: job of managing, and we need to de-risk the wildfire situation. We have a very unnatural

[0:47:00] Voice 12: stand-age structure in our forests. And as Robert Seaton pointed out a week ago,

[0:47:09] Voice 12: getting a crown fire to rip through there would be, you know, please don't light a match.

[0:47:14] Voice 12: match. So what can we do? There's a lot we can do. But it's not a, we were talking earlier,

[0:47:20] Voice 12: I wish I had a lot of simple answers. It's complicated. And how do you provide a simple

[0:47:27] Voice 12: statement for complicated? Do we ask ourselves, are we managing for biodiversity? Are we managing

[0:47:32] Voice 12: for biodiversity that is old forest biodiversity? Are we managing for butterflies that want to be

[0:47:38] Voice 12: in open fields? Are we managing for carbon storage? Are we managing for the rate of carbon storage?

[0:47:42] Voice 12: or how much is standing storage all of those need to be part of an integrated plan the

[0:47:47] Voice 12: forest is a

[0:47:48] Voice 12: very our natural environment is way beyond just a forest is very complex and and we need

[0:47:54] Voice 12: comprehensive solutions rare yes i probably use rare far too often in my own dialogue about things

[0:48:03] Voice 12: that aren't rare what's the definition and and really is that the thing we want to hang our hat

[0:48:08] Voice 12: on to be motivated you know we love these islands we want them to be healthy because that just makes

[0:48:17] Voice 12: me happy right makes us all happy what do we do about that and you know if we had all old growth

[0:48:25] Voice 12: well then the taylor checker spot on denman would probably be gone there wouldn't be an environment

[0:48:31] Voice 12: for it so what what where's the balance what are we trying to achieve and let's get we don't need

[0:48:38] Voice 12: I'm a marketing guy. We don't need marketing hype. I can talk to you a lot about marketing

[0:48:42] Voice 12: hype. I can give you horrible examples I've been involved in, but this isn't how you get there.

[0:48:47] Voice 12: It has to be real. People know if it's real or not. Thank you. Jamie?

[0:49:01] Voice 16: Thank you, David. I have

[0:49:03] Voice 16: a couple of questions. One, my first question would be, how long has this definitive information

[0:49:11] Voice 16: information concerning the range and extent of the CDF zone have been available.

[0:49:22] Voice 12: I actually had

[0:49:23] Voice 12: two of these books with me. I left the other one up there because the podium is so big.

[0:49:27] Voice 12: So I asked Bob Green, who wrote the other book. Adele wrote this one. And Bob said that the

[0:49:33] Voice 12: statement in here that says the CDF extends or is ecosystems comparable to those of the CDF in BC

[0:49:48] Voice 12: occur in Washington and the Puget Trough and on the San Juan Islands and in Oregon and Willamette

[0:49:52] Voice 12: Valley excuse me oh you got that it was a bit staccato um and Bob says that's gospel not just

[0:50:02] Voice 12: the book that statement that's 1973 quick

[0:50:10] Voice 16: follow-up to that possibly one more um so who like who is

[0:50:16] Voice 16: Dell Mettinger and Will McKenzie and Bob Green just like these are the experts you're talking

[0:50:23] Voice 16: in the book where where can they be found and are they readily available to uh to the island's trust

[0:50:31] Voice 12: if they'll talk to me they're available to you they signed my book they'd probably be

[0:50:36] Voice 12: more flattered by uh an approach from the island's trust um i won't i won't uh read

[0:50:42] Voice 12: all the resumes i did provide bios on each of them but uh quickly off the top of my head

[0:50:48] Voice 12: Dale Mettinger is what's the what's the commemorative hall in in Victoria he was

[0:51:01] Voice 12: our provincial research ecologist his protege is Will. Will is now our not a he is our provincial

[0:51:09] Voice 12: research ecologist. Bob Green did some initial carbon work on the in the honest trust area

[0:51:17] Voice 12: um these are the cdf experts in the world uh dell is dell has done ecosystem vegetation

[0:51:26] Voice 12: classifications eco veg internationally uh the u.s vegetation uh uconn he's uh vice chair of

[0:51:36] Voice 12: cozwick which is uh i'll get it wrong kate will know um committee for status of endangered species

[0:51:47] Voice 12: species ecosystems in Canada, something like that.

[0:51:51] Voice 12: Okay,

[0:52:08] Voice 18: so Toby, Joe, and Mary,

[0:52:15] Voice 3: and then Sam.

[0:52:17] Voice 7: Thank you, Mr. Donaldson.

[0:52:20] Voice 7: So you talked about real in terms of basing our arguments

[0:52:24] Voice 7: on what is real and by that, I'm assuming you mean data.

[0:52:29] Voice 7: And yet when you talked about the reasons why you switched

[0:52:33] Voice 7: into forestry, it was because you like to walk

[0:52:35] Voice 7: in the forest and you like to identify plants so in talking about data and what is real

[0:52:44] Voice 7: how do you balance out making an appeal to the public based on what they consider valuable

[0:52:53] Voice 7: protection of a whole forest for instance so is your argument that because we've done such a great

[0:53:00] Voice 7: job of protecting the environment in the gulf islands and there's a lot of forest cover that

[0:53:07] Voice 7: we should no longer be asking landowners to protect their areas or put covenants on areas

[0:53:16] Voice 7: or no longer be investing in conservancies like we've done a good job so we should stop like what

[0:53:21] Voice 7: is your central point in articulating that carbon storage and data matters somehow more than the

[0:53:29] Voice 7: the inherent value of how people relate to the land?

[0:53:38] Voice 14: Challenging, but good question.

[0:53:45] Voice 12: Generally, I'm a marketing guy now.

[0:53:50] Voice 12: Had to go back to school again.

[0:53:53] Voice 12: There were no jobs in forestry when I graduated, unfortunately.

[0:54:01] Voice 12: The message is negative.

[0:54:04] Voice 12: This is a lot of gloom and doom and fear, uncertainty, and doubt,

[0:54:08] Voice 12: what we call FUD marketing.

[0:54:11] Voice 12: And there isn't enough celebration.

[0:54:15] Voice 12: Okay. And by that, I'm referring to the fact that we have achieved 20%. We've done it in a very difficult area for that because of the high level of private ownership. Moving forward, in fact, there was a great thing, I think it came out yesterday or, yeah, probably yesterday, from the Conservancy that talked about how private landowners are really the answer going forward.

[0:54:43] Voice 12: So how do you motivate private landowners?

[0:54:46] Voice 12: Well, I'm a private landowner.

[0:54:48] Voice 12: I have a forestry degree.

[0:54:50] Voice 12: I know what a tree is.

[0:54:52] Voice 12: I know how it grows.

[0:54:53] Voice 12: I can identify most of the things around it.

[0:54:54] Voice 12: And I'm offended when I'm told that I'm bad because I'm the solution.

[0:55:00] Voice 12: I'm the solution.

[0:55:01] Voice 12: My neighbor's the solution.

[0:55:02] Voice 12: Their neighbors are the solution.

[0:55:04] Voice 12: We are all the solution.

[0:55:06] Voice 12: And unless somehow the Islands Trust is going to get enough money to buy out my house and

[0:55:11] Voice 12: everybody else's house. We all got to work together. So the messaging needs to change

[0:55:16] Voice 12: and honesty is respected in that messaging. And celebrating success is certainly more motivating

[0:55:25] Voice 12: than being told that sky is falling every day. The sky is not falling. Climate change is going

[0:55:31] Voice 12: to happen. We can't stop it, but we can adapt. We can make our forests more healthy. We can make

[0:55:37] Voice 12: make our ecosystems more healthy, and we can be better prepared.

[0:55:40] Voice 12: And what is good for us, I think with Firesmart, is good for the forest.

[0:55:46] Voice 12: What's good for the forest is good for us.

[0:55:48] Voice 12: We live in a forest.

[0:55:50] Voice 12: That's how I feel about that.

[0:55:53] Voice 12: I hope that answers your question.

[0:56:03] Voice 6: So my question is a little bit less esoteric.

[0:56:07] Voice 6: It doesn't deal with the science and the data.

[0:56:11] Voice 6: Well, I would like to know how the web content for the Islands Trust is created and validated. And, you know, should we be taking a more active role instead of leaving it to, you know, staff perhaps? And that, you know, we don't, there's no process.

[0:56:31] Voice 6: I mean, it is the corporate face of the Islands Trust, so it should be managed and approved and correct.

[0:56:42] Voice 6: Yeah. Thank you. Is there a process? How could it be improved? Thank you.

[0:56:49] Voice 12: I can't answer that question except anecdotally.

[0:56:56] Voice 6: Would you like to answer that? Anybody in the staff?

[0:57:00] Voice 18: Yeah, no, I'd like to actually continue with delegations.

[0:57:03] Voice 18: We've got two more people waiting.

[0:57:05] Voice 18: We've got a bunch of people in the public comment period.

[0:57:09] Voice 18: We've spent 25 minutes with Mr. Dunison

[0:57:11] Voice 18: and I have three more speakers on my list

[0:57:15] Voice 18: and Joe Bernardo is next.

[0:57:20] Voice 4: Mr. Dunison, can you take us back to one of your slides?

[0:57:25] Voice 4: And the slide, yeah, that's exactly the one I wanted.

[0:57:28] Voice 4: No, that one.

[0:57:31] Voice 4: You've got two columns here.

[0:57:33] Voice 4: The one that says invalid information

[0:57:34] Voice 4: on the Islands Trust website

[0:57:37] Voice 4: Uh, you're claiming that, for example, on carbon, there's 1,250 instances of an invalid

[0:57:52] Voice 4: information. I take by that you mean it's a misleading statement.

[0:58:02] Voice 12: Doesn't like me. Am I on? Okay. Yes. Misleading or otherwise invalid

[0:58:07] Voice 12: under the various headings there. And if you want a quick explanation.

[0:58:11] Voice 12: I

[0:58:13] Voice 4: have more questions. So the rest of the column, as we look down there, this is rare, biodiversity, 300 species, on and on, all these different sort of things, exceptional biodiversity, everything on to the right, you're saying those are all instances of misleading or invalid, wrong statements.

[0:58:33] Voice 4: What kind of search terms did you use when you were examining these things?

[0:58:42] Voice 12: Okay. Using Google Advanced Search, which you can do in a single line, but the best way to do it, if you want to do a search and look for these things, start with Google Advanced Search if you haven't used it before.

[0:58:53] Voice 12: You can do site-specific searching.

[0:58:54] Voice 12: So I don't have access.

[0:58:56] Voice 12: Well, I probably could go page by page, but the website's huge.

[0:59:01] Voice 12: So use Google to get there quickly.

[0:59:02] Voice 12: And what Google will do is using its algorithms will give you what is effectively a statistical representation of what it believes matches your search term.

[0:59:14] Voice 12: So if, for example, we just ask it about carbon on the Islands Trust website, it will find all the things that it believes relate to carbon.

[0:59:24] Voice 12: Donate is a good one. So you can see some things are in quotes and some things are not.

[0:59:29] Voice 12: So if I ask it to look for donate, it will find donation, donated, derivatives of donate.

[0:59:35] Voice 12: If I ask it specifically for the word donate, then it will only look for that word or donation.

[0:59:40] Voice 12: So when I say there's roughly 200 donate buttons on the Audience Rest website, I know that each web page that has a donate button has at least two phrases, donate to conservancy.

[0:59:52] Voice 12: So if I look for that in quotes using Google Advanced Search, it will then give me about 394 results.

[1:00:00] Voice 12: Google will only let you see up to 400.

[1:00:02] Voice 12: So fortunately, in that case, I actually have looked through all of those all the way to the bottom of the list.

[1:00:08] Voice 12: You have to say, yes, I want to see more.

[1:00:11] Voice 12: And pretty much all of those are valid.

[1:00:14] Voice 12: Maybe the last five to 10, you go, well, I'm not sure how they added that.

[1:00:19] Voice 12: But I donate to conservancy, donate to conservancy, donate to conservancy roughly 400 times.

[1:00:25] Voice 12: So knowing there's two, I'll make a wild guess and say 200.

[1:00:32] Voice 12: Does that help?

[1:00:34] Voice 4: That gets me part of the way there.

[1:00:36] Voice 4: The hard question is, you're making a pretty strong claim here.

[1:00:42] Voice 4: Those are a lot of instances, I mean, thousands of instances of things that you're saying aren't true.

[1:00:49] Voice 4: How can you say that?

[1:00:52] Voice 4: We've heard you talk about CDF.

[1:00:54] Voice 4: We've heard you talk about carbon.

[1:00:56] Voice 4: Marvin, how can you say biodiversity? I mean, there's a lot there. Are you telling me that

[1:01:03] Voice 4: you've gone through, you have like looked at the science for all these different things and you've

[1:01:08] Voice 4: compared it to what we're saying?

[1:01:11] Voice 12: So, so if you will, I have a selection list. I know what the

[1:01:16] Voice 12: phrases are with respect to CDF zone statements, biodiversity. That's why we have 300 and

[1:01:24] Voice 12: biodiversity of 300 species. So one of the more common statements, we heard it earlier today in

[1:01:28] Voice 12: one of the delegations, is that there's over 300 species if you search the CDC database. I know

[1:01:34] Voice 12: the source of that number. It's a CDC database. I know if you search the CDC database and you

[1:01:41] Voice 12: restrict it only to the island's trust area, you will get less than 300. So I know that's invalid.

[1:01:46] Voice 12: ballot. And for each of these, I have analyzed to quite a terrible level of infinitesimal degree,

[1:01:58] Voice 12: you know, what the statements are. And then I'm looking for what are those keywords. And I'm

[1:02:02] Voice 12: relying on Google search to give me this, if you will, statistical representation. Now,

[1:02:08] Voice 12: there might not be 1250. There might have been 1250 on January. I've done this search before

[1:02:14] Voice 12: before and after, and it might change. But if we pull back and say, okay, let's look at it as just

[1:02:19] Voice 12: a simple representation of areas we might be concerned about. Well, maybe we should start

[1:02:25] Voice 12: with statements about carbon, because carbon seems to come up often, whether I add words to it or not.

[1:02:32] Voice 12: And where are those? Now, maybe Island Trust staff knows exactly where they are, but I'm trying to

[1:02:38] Voice 12: find the needles in a very large haystack. What I can tell you is that there are no donate buttons,

[1:02:44] Voice 12: on your bios. I've checked. There's no donate buttons on the agendas. I've checked. There

[1:02:51] Voice 12: might be on the page that you click when you want to come and join us here. So I have gone through

[1:02:59] Voice 12: the site to quite some degree. And I cannot, to your point, I can't say definitively I know

[1:03:06] Voice 12: there's 1,250 because I can't even see that far in Google. It won't let me. Bing will let me go

[1:03:10] Voice 12: further but i'm done now thank you anyhow i hope that answers your question okay

[1:03:16] Voice 18: thank you for that

[1:03:17] Voice 18: answer i just want to um i'm going to go to my next two speakers here i just want to i misquoted

[1:03:24] Voice 18: myself for saying i had two more speakers and delegations i've got four more people in

[1:03:28] Voice 18: delegations i've got nine people possible attendees that want to speak in town all um we can continue

[1:03:33] Voice 18: on but um if we have if we want some more in-depth questions i think i would like to go through the

[1:03:40] Voice 18: rest of the agenda and Mr. Dunison is in Nanaimo I believe and perhaps there's an opportunity to

[1:03:45] Voice 18: have more conversation with him after but just want to get a sense of being fair to the other

[1:03:52] Voice 18: people that are anticipating to be able to speak sometime in the near future um suggestions on our

[1:03:57] Voice 18: agenda Jamie I

[1:04:00] Voice 16: you know the magnitude of what David is speaking about here is quite shocking

[1:04:04] Voice 16: to me and almost like a informational two by four to the head um it would be i think very

[1:04:10] Voice 16: advantageous to hear at least the next couple of uh questions oh

[1:04:14] Voice 18: i definitely want to go to the

[1:04:15] Voice 18: next two questions but i would like to move on from there if that's all right with council

[1:04:20] Voice 18: so i'm not seeing any objections so sam broswick and then deb morrison uh

[1:04:26] Voice 28: thank you mr dennis um

[1:04:29] Voice 28: yeah no and i i think i there's a question that uh trustee elliott who is banished uh

[1:04:37] Voice 28: asked and it was sort of the question of of um and as trustee harris said this is you know very

[1:04:45] Voice 28: concerning information if that's the case i think there's joe bernardo asked some very good questions

[1:04:50] Voice 28: about um you know how how those things were arrived at but he's asked you those questions

[1:04:55] Voice 28: i'm satisfied with your answers from that um i guess the the question is and what i was sort

[1:05:00] Voice 28: of gathering from this delegation as opposed to the last one was there's a sort of a message of

[1:05:06] Voice 28: of conservation for the sake of conservation is not the answer necessarily and that you're

[1:05:11] Voice 28: concerned with your concern as far as i've been able to parse it seems to be because you're

[1:05:18] Voice 28: presenting information but you're not you know leading the horse to water which i appreciate

[1:05:22] Voice 28: generally uh but there seems to be that your concern is primarily uh that there is a an

[1:05:30] Voice 28: accuracy of data that the trust is using to formulate uh policy and promotional material

[1:05:36] Voice 28: which leads to donations i understand the ethical concern there um so i guess the question that i

[1:05:45] Voice 28: have is is sort of is that assumption that conservation for the sake of conservation is not

[1:05:50] Voice 28: uh not a not a good answer or not a good reason to undertake that um and beyond correcting invalid

[1:05:58] Voice 28: valid data um what can we do i mean i'm i i understand that you're talking about celebration

[1:06:03] Voice 28: is more motivating more motivating towards what let's

[1:06:12] Voice 12: start with the last part that you can

[1:06:13] Voice 12: succeed where's the evidence that we can succeed we there there are gatherings on salt spring

[1:06:22] Voice 12: to deal with climate grief and and maybe that's something that's going to get bigger and

[1:06:28] Voice 12: and more profound but for me that's concerning we can do things it isn't over

[1:06:37] Voice 12: in terms of messaging leadership argument persuasion or example the best I could ever do

[1:06:55] Voice 12: I my my third degree when I finally actually got a real job was in business and we're supposed to

[1:07:02] Voice 12: learn about leadership after two years I said what the heck did I learn so I went to the dictionary

[1:07:06] Voice 12: what is leadership that said something about you know uh argument persuasion or example i said well

[1:07:13] Voice 12: i guess i'm going to go with that because nobody taught me anything else and you know it's the

[1:07:18] Voice 12: honesty and you know how do we get there from here and and nothing like it doesn't have to be

[1:07:25] Voice 12: conservation for the sake of conversation it's just you know car for the sake of car isn't going

[1:07:33] Voice 12: to motivate people to buy cars maybe it will but we can do better so i think we can do better right

[1:07:40] Voice 12: that's that's part of my pitch and i think we need to avoid things that can that have significant

[1:07:47] Voice 12: risks um to the islands trust um you know i didn't talk about financial reporting we present

[1:07:53] Voice 12: carrot reports to the province for the funding they give us and we say that we're a significant

[1:07:57] Voice 12: carbon sink in the region well we're not even carbon neutral we aren't okay

[1:08:06] Voice 18: thank you for the

[1:08:07] Voice 18: the question. Deb Morrison, over to you.

[1:08:10] Voice 11: Thank you. So thank you for your presentation.

[1:08:15] Voice 11: You've done a significant amount of thinking and review of websites and a lot of data that

[1:08:21] Voice 11: you presented. You've also presented it in a way that is naming the credentials of people that

[1:08:27] Voice 11: you've consulted, which it's a particular rhetorical move to be able to name that the

[1:08:34] Voice 11: information that you're providing has power and authority and that's okay i understand that and

[1:08:40] Voice 11: it's it's a good move um so i just need to clarify a couple things that i see and to do that i feel

[1:08:48] Voice 11: like i actually need to name that i am a phd i have two degrees in science and a degree in

[1:08:54] Voice 11: and 20 years of work in climate justice work and communications so um when we're talking about

[1:09:03] Voice 11: about the method that you've used and you've explained here. So thank you for your clarification.

[1:09:10] Voice 11: The method that you use to go and do this is great and interesting, but to name things as

[1:09:16] Voice 11: invalid in your searches, did you have more than just you look at them for like what was valid or

[1:09:23] Voice 11: invalid in the moment when you were looking through those thousands of different pieces,

[1:09:27] Voice 11: Or were you deciding it was valid or invalid?

[1:09:30] Voice 11: Because that definition of what constitutes valid or invalid, there's an entire methodological

[1:09:36] Voice 11: field about inter-rater reliability when you're talking about that.

[1:09:40] Voice 11: And I don't see that.

[1:09:41] Voice 11: And so for me, this data is interesting and something we should think about and understand

[1:09:46] Voice 11: how we're communicating.

[1:09:48] Voice 11: I think you're right.

[1:09:48] Voice 11: We need to think about how we're communicating.

[1:09:50] Voice 11: but to present it as a like more sort of robust study it it's there's some questions that i have

[1:09:58] Voice 11: about that so that's my first question and then i have one other piece i

[1:10:05] Voice 12: haven't cited anybody else

[1:10:06] Voice 12: on this i did the work myself i investigated all of these things i've done three presentations now

[1:10:12] Voice 12: this is the fourth explaining why i believe these are invalid with substantial scientific research

[1:10:18] Voice 12: research backup. I have more here if you want. This is what the chart looks like from a drone

[1:10:28] Voice 12: inside the EINSTRUST area, outside the EINSTRUST area. I paid for this research.

[1:10:35] Voice 12: Statements that we are superior in carbon storage are invalid. That's cost me money. And

[1:10:42] Voice 12: you should know it's a classically understood relationship. You must understand stand age,

[1:10:50] Voice 12: understand the relationship with carbon storage if you don't include that you're going off base

[1:11:00] Voice 12: and unfortunately the research did not include stand age that we refer to and are using as

[1:11:08] Voice 12: our justification for why carbon storage is superior in the island's trust area if it were

[1:11:14] Voice 12: superior there should be a different cdf subzone because the forest would be fundamentally different

[1:11:21] Voice 12: and it isn't. Dell will tell you that. They will tell you that. And yes, I've used their names,

[1:11:30] Voice 12: but he's the author of this. I only need to quote from this, but I think I was challenged last time,

[1:11:37] Voice 12: you know, tell us who you've talked to because I had made previous inquiries. So, okay.

[1:11:42] Voice 12: I said, look, I'm doing this for presentation in March. Here are the statements. You have the

[1:11:48] Voice 12: supplement. So those are the questions I ask. You see Bob Brett's, the bulk of his response

[1:11:53] Voice 12: responses directly in response to the question that was asked, do not make statements that

[1:12:01] Voice 12: overstate or understate the number of species endangered. You will not, you know, this is

[1:12:06] Voice 12: leading you down the wrong path. So yes, I've used him, you know, to ask permission,

[1:12:11] Voice 12: and he's a recognized expert.

[1:12:16] Voice 11: I actually wasn't questioning the statements about what you think

[1:12:20] Voice 11: is right or wrong about that. I was questioning the methodology about that you verified that

[1:12:25] Voice 11: that methodology. So, um, I do think it's something that we need to investigate and ensure

[1:12:30] Voice 11: that we're making accurate statements all the way through. Um, to that end, I think I'm probably the

[1:12:35] Voice 11: number one, like, like critic and like feedback mechanism contributor to the website at the

[1:12:41] Voice 11: moment. So every single time I find a problem on the website, I click the feedback button

[1:12:45] Voice 11: and like reply, like what needs to be done. So we fix it. So, um, and then I guess the one other

[1:12:52] Voice 11: question that i have is you you talked a lot about comparative like carbon storage as comparative or

[1:13:00] Voice 11: relative i think is the word you used so that carbon storage in the trust or in the cdf zone

[1:13:07] Voice 11: either one different graphs show different things is relative to storage in other areas

[1:13:13] Voice 11: and i guess the question i have about that is it feels a little bit like a red herring to me

[1:13:20] Voice 11: of like if we're doing a comparison of carbon storage from one area to the other frankly i'm

[1:13:27] Voice 11: concerned that we protect as much carbon storage on the planet period i don't care what border it's

[1:13:34] Voice 11: in or what region we are in a fairly significant issue right now and so i just want to make sure

[1:13:41] Voice 11: that we're not communicating to the public that we shouldn't be conserving carbon storage in

[1:13:46] Voice 11: whatever form so can you speak to that i

[1:13:51] Voice 12: agree and hopefully i haven't been not misleading but

[1:13:56] Voice 12: misdirecting the conversation i think is that is that fair um what i what drove my interest and

[1:14:05] Voice 12: concern was how the schuster report has been embedded in it was the first thing i talked to

[1:14:13] Voice 12: There were 12 documents. First paragraph is, you know, our CDF forest is better than their CDF forest.

[1:14:21] Voice 12: I mean, it's been a while since I went through forestry, but I don't remember that.

[1:14:26] Voice 12: So the comparative came. It's right in the statements in that report.

[1:14:31] Voice 12: But, yeah, I mean, your point is my point. It's misdirecting the conversation.

[1:14:35] Voice 12: conversation, it's setting up a false narrative. And now it's like, I got to get the pom-poms out

[1:14:43] Voice 12: and our force is better because that's kind of, you know, the early presenters were talking about

[1:14:48] Voice 12: how do we get the honest trust to help us convince other jurisdictions as one of the goals. And well,

[1:14:55] Voice 12: if we're saying, hey, you know, we're the best team on the planet, it doesn't help that either.

[1:15:01] Voice 12: Okay,

[1:15:07] Voice 18: thank you, David, for your presentation. Obviously, a lot of information, a lot of digging, a lot of thought that we need to invest in the work that you've done for us, so I want to thank you.

[1:15:18] Voice 18: I'm going to go to our next speaker now, Maxine Leichter, regarding bylaw enforcement procedure policy 5.5.1, being more effective and transparent.

[1:15:29] Voice 18: Maxine from Salt Spring Island, we'll get you up on the screen here, and the floor will be yours.

[1:15:48] Voice 18: Well, there's your

[1:15:49] Voice 18: slideshow, Maxine.

[1:15:50] Voice 18: Are you joining us by video?

[1:15:53] Voice 30: Yes, I'm here.

[1:15:54] Voice 30: Can you see and hear me?

[1:15:56] Voice 18: We can see your slideshow, and I can see you on the screen here, yeah.

[1:16:00] Voice 30: Okay.

[1:16:02] Voice 30: Thank you so much for letting me speak with you today.

[1:16:06] Voice 30: I hope this will be an easy, good segue.

[1:16:09] Voice 30: This is a much more simple story to tell.

[1:16:14] Voice 30: and so I'll get going. Next slide. Okay, I'm here today because at your last

[1:16:27] Voice 30: violence trust meeting, you had a presentation from someone who had violated some bylaws,

[1:16:34] Voice 30: and I thought it was important that you also hear from the other side, from the people who

[1:16:40] Voice 30: make the complaint. I've kind of made a little hobby of helping people who have

[1:16:48] Voice 30: made complaints and I've over the years I've helped many people and so what I'm

[1:16:54] Voice 30: telling you today is based on what I've heard from them. Next slide. Before I

[1:17:05] Voice 30: present the bulk of the presentation I want to make it clear what I'm talking

[1:17:10] Voice 30: talking about when I use the term enforcement, it's for, okay, I'll just, I'll read what I have

[1:17:18] Voice 30: here. Advising violators what the bylaws are and how to comply is a very necessary and important

[1:17:28] Voice 30: part of the enforcement process. But after we advise and a reasonable time is given, enforcement

[1:17:36] Voice 30: Enforcement means obtaining compliance.

[1:17:40] Voice 30: And I only mention this because I have had discussions with people who thought that bylaw enforcement was self-enforcement.

[1:17:47] Voice 30: Next slide, please.

[1:17:50] Voice 30: Okay, this is a table from the bylaw enforcement report from last summer.

[1:17:57] Voice 30: You have a more updated one in your agenda package, and I'd like you to first focus on the top line.

[1:18:06] Voice 30: this gives the length of time that files have been opened and the first column says less than

[1:18:15] Voice 30: a year then it says I think three to five years and then greater than five years and then at the

[1:18:23] Voice 30: bottom are the number of files so first of all if a bylaw enforcement case is open a year or two

[1:18:32] Voice 30: I think that's reasonable. It can take that long, but three years, four years, five years, and over five years could be like, it could be 10 years. That's just not acceptable.

[1:18:47] Voice 30: Think of the person who filed a complaint, who sees the situation in their neighborhood, possibly their neighbor, who you didn't want to file a complaint against, but it was a terrible situation.

[1:19:00] Voice 30: Imagine that person waiting year after year after year for something to be done.

[1:19:09] Voice 30: And I can't say that some of these cases here are probably short-term vacation rentals where there wasn't an actual complaint.

[1:19:16] Voice 30: But a certain percentage of them are real people that this has happened to.

[1:19:23] Voice 30: Okay, next slide.

[1:19:25] Voice 18: Maxine.

[1:19:27] Voice 18: Yeah.

[1:19:27] Voice 18: Can you hear me, Maxine?

[1:19:29] Voice 18: We're having a very hard

[1:19:30] Voice 18: time hearing you.

[1:19:32] Voice 18: Oh, no.

[1:19:32] Voice 18: I wonder whether or not you could wear a headset or something to assist us with the audio.

[1:19:38] Voice 30: I can talk louder. Would that help? Does that help if I talk louder?

[1:19:45] Voice 18: Maybe speak slowly to be sure that it comes across, okay?

[1:19:51] Voice 30: Okay, I'll try to speak louder. I do have a low voice.

[1:19:57] Voice 30: So my main point that you might have missed is just that there are a lot of people behind those statistics who really do suffer when their complaint is not addressed for many years.

[1:20:12] Voice 30: So they often say to me, why do we have bylaws if we're not going to enforce them?

[1:20:20] Voice 30: And I say the bylaws are meant for those who choose to comply.

[1:20:27] Voice 30: and there are a lot of people that choose to comply so it's not a complete waste

[1:20:31] Voice 30: but really this is where we're at in real life there are so few cases that are taken to court

[1:20:39] Voice 30: and so many cases they go for many many years as you can see in that report that our bylaws

[1:20:47] Voice 30: are for those who choose to comply next slide please okay so here is the island trust policy

[1:20:57] Voice 30: on this. It's not my idea. I'm going to present to you something from the Ombudsman's office.

[1:21:04] Voice 30: And our trust policy statement says that we will have, it says there in red, a best practices

[1:21:14] Voice 30: operating manual. And it says in green, in accordance with this other document from the

[1:21:22] Voice 30: the Ombudsman's office. Next slide, please. Here are the two documents. On the left is the Ombudsman's

[1:21:32] Voice 30: bylaw enforcement, not requirements, they're just suggestions, but they're professional suggestions.

[1:21:39] Voice 30: And on the right is our Islands Trust procedures and practices. Next slide, please. Okay. So my

[1:21:50] Voice 30: One of my main points tonight is that our bylaw enforcement manual is not in conformance,

[1:21:58] Voice 30: not that they're in accordance with the bylaw enforcement best practices guide for local

[1:22:04] Voice 30: government, the other one in the picture.

[1:22:07] Voice 30: And you have a report in your agenda package that acknowledges this.

[1:22:13] Voice 30: However, it says that with, they acknowledge it's not a conformance, and they say with adjustments to reflect the unique structure of the island's trust.

[1:22:26] Voice 30: Kind of make it sound like they're not very important differences, but there are very important differences.

[1:22:33] Voice 30: Next slide.

[1:22:36] Voice 30: So I'm not going to read all this.

[1:22:38] Voice 30: We won't have time to go through it tonight, but I've given it to you so you can refer to it.

[1:22:45] Voice 30: It's in your package.

[1:22:46] Voice 30: And these are the very important best practices, many of which are not included in our trust manual.

[1:22:55] Voice 30: Next slide, please.

[1:22:59] Voice 30: Okay, so here are some important points I've picked out that our trust manual should have.

[1:23:06] Voice 30: Yes. One, considerations for staff when exercising discretion.

[1:23:12] Voice 30: This, by the way, the report that you have in your agenda package is the first time,

[1:23:20] Voice 30: and I've been on this issue for about 15 years,

[1:23:24] Voice 30: the very first time that I have seen the practices put into writing.

[1:23:30] Voice 30: This is good. It's a really good beginning.

[1:23:32] Voice 30: beginning. However, it's still missing a lot. And one of the important things is what is staff

[1:23:39] Voice 30: supposed to consider or not consider when they use their discretion. And the discretion is about

[1:23:44] Voice 30: how long they're giving people to comply. Two, we need written policy procedures, which I, like I

[1:23:51] Voice 30: said, the report is a good beginning, needs to be readily accessible to the public on the website.

[1:23:58] Voice 30: site. This is what the ombudsman recommends. Three, this information should be given to the

[1:24:07] Voice 30: complainant and the person complained against so they know where they stand and what the

[1:24:13] Voice 30: procedures will be. Four, this is very important, which we do not have, written policies on how

[1:24:22] Voice 30: investigations are conducted, such as documenting the violations, when and how violations are

[1:24:29] Voice 30: advised. Okay, next slide. This is the last slide. Here are my recommendations. We need effective and

[1:24:41] Voice 30: consistent procedures for violent enforcement staff to follow. Like I said, we've got a good

[1:24:46] Voice 30: beginning, but there's a lot more that we need. We need to inform complainants and violators

[1:24:53] Voice 30: with procedures to get what the policy procedures are and the deadline deadline that's what's

[1:25:01] Voice 30: missing we deadlines can be flexible you know you can stay between six months in a year it doesn't

[1:25:08] Voice 30: have to be an exact deadline but some sort of deadline is needed for compliance three

[1:25:14] Voice 30: Three, we need to allocate budget and enforcement staff for prompt follow-ups

[1:25:22] Voice 30: and going to court when necessary.

[1:25:24] Voice 30: This is the expensive part that people don't want to pay for.

[1:25:28] Voice 30: However, when you don't take people to court,

[1:25:31] Voice 30: and the trust does take people occasionally to court,

[1:25:35] Voice 30: when people know they're not going to take to court,

[1:25:38] Voice 30: they know they don't have to comply.

[1:25:40] Voice 30: And that's why we have people going for years and years and years about complying.

[1:25:46] Voice 30: And the last one, which I really would love to see discussed, is what to do about violators who cannot afford to comply.

[1:26:06] Voice 30: Because someone cannot afford to comply.

[1:26:10] Voice 30: Sometimes compliance is expensive.

[1:26:11] Voice 30: Does that mean that they don't have to comply?

[1:26:15] Voice 30: I think this is something worth discussing

[1:26:17] Voice 30: because I think the bylaw officers really do feel bad

[1:26:21] Voice 30: when they have to enforce against someone

[1:26:23] Voice 30: who cannot afford to comply.

[1:26:26] Voice 30: So I think that's my last slide.

[1:26:29] Voice 30: I wanna thank you very much.

[1:26:32] Voice 30: And if you want more details,

[1:26:35] Voice 30: I have a much longer version for this report,

[1:26:39] Voice 30: which goes into great detail about the two documents

[1:26:42] Voice 30: and what can be done to bring our document in accordance with the other one.

[1:26:46] Voice 30: And I know that the ombudsman will come and he will say, no, this department, you don't have to do this.

[1:26:53] Voice 30: And that's true. We don't have to.

[1:26:55] Voice 30: But we should. We should be in compliance with what the ombudsman reports recommend.

[1:27:02] Voice 30: Thank you. Any questions? I hope you can hear me better when

[1:27:07] Voice 18: I spoke up.

[1:27:09] Voice 18: It helped a lot. Thank you, Maxine. Are there any questions for you?

[1:27:13] Voice 18: I can't hear you.

[1:27:14] Voice 18: I see Mariette Boland has a question.

[1:27:18] Voice 6: Thank you, Maxine.

[1:27:20] Voice 6: On the slide where you have a picture of the...

[1:27:24] Voice 30: I can't hear you.

[1:27:27] Voice 6: The slide where you have the picture of the ombudsman's guide,

[1:27:33] Voice 6: on the right-hand side you have a document,

[1:27:36] Voice 6: which is Ireland's Trust,

[1:27:38] Voice 6: bylaw compliance and enforcement best practices.

[1:27:41] Voice 6: are you telling us that that exists or that you couldn't find that i'm not sure whether that

[1:27:49] Voice 6: exists or not because i have looked for this i know we have a policy but i'm not sure we have a

[1:27:58] Voice 6: best practices manual did

[1:28:04] Voice 18: you hear the question maxine or no looks like she's frozen i guess that

[1:28:09] Voice 18: That was the end of that.

[1:28:13] Voice 18: But actually, a better opportunity exists, I think, for staff.

[1:28:16] Voice 18: We have a best practices manual for bylaw enforcement.

[1:28:19] Voice 18: The answer is yes.

[1:28:22] Voice 18: Okay.

[1:28:23] Voice 18: So I'm sorry, Maxine, if we lost touch with you.

[1:28:26] Voice 18: I'm going to go to the next speaker now at 6.15, which I believe is Rianne De Silva.

[1:28:32] Voice 18: And I think she's in the audience.

[1:28:34] Voice 18: Welcome.

[1:28:34] Voice 18: Thank you for joining us in person.

[1:28:36] Voice 18: and um you're here to talk to us about how allen stress bylaw enforcement violates human rights to

[1:28:42] Voice 18: housing and um so you have 10 minutes and please um you have the microphone press the button on

[1:28:50] Voice 18: there that's got a picture of a little person with a okay with a wi-fi coming out of their mouth

[1:28:58] Voice 10: oh yes i see it now thank you uh

[1:29:00] Voice 10: good evening my name is rihanna silva i've been keeping

[1:29:04] Voice 10: denman island weird for 26 years thank you for seeing me this evening i'm an uninvited guest

[1:29:11] Voice 10: who lives on the traditional and unseated territories of the comox nation i acknowledge

[1:29:15] Voice 10: that we are meeting on the territories of the synonymics nation however i note that this is

[1:29:21] Voice 10: not a synonymics process while the legitimacy of the nation of canada and the islands trust

[1:29:28] Voice 10: to administer over unceded lands remains under question.

[1:29:32] Voice 10: I am engaging today using this colonial systems rules

[1:29:36] Voice 10: and governing laws.

[1:29:38] Voice 10: Thank you for your attention this evening.

[1:29:41] Voice 10: I would like to acknowledge and thank the Denman Island

[1:29:44] Voice 10: Local Trust Committee for their leadership

[1:29:46] Voice 10: in unanimously affirming the obligation

[1:29:48] Voice 10: to upholding the international human right

[1:29:51] Voice 10: to adequate housing.

[1:29:52] Voice 10: housing beginning on page 191 of your agenda package uh I have presented information

[1:30:00] Voice 10: about the Islands Trust and Local Trust Committee's obligations

[1:30:03] Voice 10: under international and Canadian law

[1:30:06] Voice 10: to respect, protect, and fulfill the human right to adequate housing.

[1:30:11] Voice 10: I've included a list of 12 actions

[1:30:13] Voice 10: that must be immediately taken to end systemic violations

[1:30:16] Voice 10: and to help the Islands Trust to begin alignment

[1:30:19] Voice 10: with human rights obligations.

[1:30:22] Voice 10: There is no debate about whether housing is a human right.

[1:30:25] Voice 10: Several layers of government above this one

[1:30:28] Voice 10: confirmed that it is, in fact, law of this land.

[1:30:31] Voice 10: I hope that each of you have or will soon read the information

[1:30:34] Voice 10: that I've provided in your agendas.

[1:30:37] Voice 10: I hope that you will proactively share it with your home communities.

[1:30:40] Voice 10: May this begin your discussions about how the Islands Trust

[1:30:44] Voice 10: and you as community members will fulfill the moral and legal obligation

[1:30:51] Voice 10: to support and affirm the human right to adequate housing.

[1:30:55] Voice 10: I believe that every person in this room supports human rights.

[1:31:00] Voice 10: When humans are presented with new information, we must adjust our operating systems.

[1:31:07] Voice 10: From women wearing pants to no smoking inside public places, we do it repeatedly throughout

[1:31:13] Voice 10: our lives. That ability is one of our strengths as humans. I wish each of us in this room success

[1:31:21] Voice 10: in updating our personal views, our social practices, and our governmental operating

[1:31:27] Voice 10: systems to account for this fundamental paradigm shift. May we be united in our support

[1:31:44] Voice 10: of the human right to adequate housing. The human right to adequate housing does not mean

[1:31:51] Voice 10: free housing for all upholding the human right to adequate housing means that islands trust bylaws

[1:31:58] Voice 10: and staff may not evict nor through threat of fine or other means compel a landowner to evict

[1:32:05] Voice 10: people from the housing they have found they may or they use starting on page 195 of the agenda

[1:32:12] Voice 10: package i have outlined 12 actions to be taken immediately by the islands trust to change current

[1:32:19] Voice 10: policies, procedures, practices, and operating paradigms to support the human right to adequate

[1:32:25] Voice 10: housing, as all local governments are obligated to do. Later in this meeting, on page 412 of the

[1:32:37] Voice 10: agenda, is a report from the Bylaw Enforcement Manager, which states that in 2022, there were

[1:32:43] Voice 10: are 113 open files investigating unlawful dwellings. That is almost one-fifth of all

[1:32:51] Voice 10: open enforcement files. One-fifth of enforcement hours and resources are spent investigating our

[1:32:59] Voice 10: community members at their homes for the crime, actually for the human right of having a home.

[1:33:10] Voice 10: Despite the detailed report that you will be presented or have been presented by on bylaw

[1:33:15] Voice 10: enforcement there is no mention of the duty to uphold the human right to housing in bylaw

[1:33:20] Voice 10: enforcement policies practices or procedures. Page 421 of the agenda package shows that the

[1:33:26] Voice 10: Islands Trust bylaw enforcement best practices manual was last updated in 2008. That certainly

[1:33:34] Voice 10: explains why the human right to adequate housing is absent, despite it being Canadian legislation

[1:33:39] Voice 10: since 2019. It has been said that during a by-law infractions investigation, the by-law

[1:33:47] Voice 10: enforcement officer communicates with the landowner only and does not come into contact

[1:33:53] Voice 10: with tenants. Surely, any investigation of alleged unlawful dwellings would put the investigator

[1:34:01] Voice 10: investigator into contact with the alleged dwelling, and thus the alleged tenant.

[1:34:09] Voice 10: All tenants have the same rights, whether unlawful or lawful.

[1:34:13] Voice 10: Every landowner is required to give a minimum of 24 hours' notice before any site visits

[1:34:19] Voice 10: to their tenants.

[1:34:20] Voice 10: Accordingly, the by-law enforcement officer must be compelled by this body to give a minimum

[1:34:26] Voice 10: of 24 hours' notice before any investigation of any suspected dwelling.

[1:34:32] Voice 10: It may be that by-law enforcement staff are not aware that as employees of a local government

[1:34:37] Voice 10: in Canada, they have a duty to support and affirm all persons' human rights to their

[1:34:44] Voice 10: adequate housing.

[1:34:45] Voice 10: It is time for the Islands Trust Council and all local trust committees to meet their responsibilities

[1:34:51] Voice 10: abilities to ensure staff and trustees uphold human rights as they carry out their duties.

[1:34:56] Voice 10: All levels of the Islands Trust must be directed to accept that it is a violation of human rights

[1:35:03] Voice 10: to enforce, fine, or threaten to enforce against citizens who provide other citizens access to

[1:35:11] Voice 10: their human right to housing. Among changes necessary are the following. All staff and

[1:35:18] Voice 10: contractors must make appointments a minimum of 24 hours in advance of any site visits education

[1:35:23] Voice 10: must be provided on the duty to uphold the human right to adequate housing while carrying out

[1:35:30] Voice 10: duties on behalf of the islands trust mandatory trauma-informed training for any staff member

[1:35:37] Voice 10: before they make any site visits to people's homes this is for every human safety trust-wide repeal

[1:35:45] Voice 10: all sections of the bylaw enforcement notification system which characterize housing as a bylaw

[1:35:50] Voice 10: infraction. Remove all fines that might be applied against housing. Repeal and remove any other

[1:35:56] Voice 10: sections of documents that violate or limit the human right to adequate housing and other actions

[1:36:04] Voice 10: as listed in my written presentation to you. It is common knowledge and common sense that living in

[1:36:12] Voice 10: an inadequate or unfit accommodation for sustained periods has negative impacts on the mental and

[1:36:20] Voice 10: physical health of adults and on the well-being and development on on children at the february

[1:36:28] Voice 10: denman local trust committee meeting i read the names of seven community members i have personally

[1:36:34] Voice 10: known who have died in and possibly because of their insecure housing my most recent friend died

[1:36:41] Voice 10: just this past January. These people were all interwoven members of our Denman

[1:36:48] Voice 10: Island community. They are loved, they are missed, they mattered. Each of them

[1:36:54] Voice 10: deserved better than how they died. There are so many more community members on

[1:37:00] Voice 10: each of our islands at risk right now in and because of their insecure and

[1:37:05] Voice 10: inadequate housing and that is precisely why housing is both a fundamental need

[1:37:11] Voice 10: and a human right.

[1:37:13] Voice 10: Without adequate housing, people die.

[1:37:17] Voice 10: How do we support the human right to housing?

[1:37:20] Voice 10: Page 194 of the agenda package begins a list

[1:37:25] Voice 10: of 12 immediate actions to be taken by the Islands Trust

[1:37:29] Voice 10: to turn current systemic human rights violations

[1:37:33] Voice 10: into functional support of the human right to housing.

[1:37:36] Voice 10: We can meet housing need and obligations

[1:37:39] Voice 10: while also protecting our trees,

[1:37:42] Voice 10: the water and the wild critters that we share our home our home islands with island residents

[1:37:49] Voice 10: overwhelmingly want to see each other housed on every island every consultation study petition

[1:37:55] Voice 10: engagement shows overwhelming support for housing that also protects our environment each of us

[1:38:02] Voice 10: in this room supports human rights each of us in this room loves this planet

[1:38:09] Voice 10: each of us in this room has done difficult things in our lifetimes each of us in this room has

[1:38:16] Voice 10: changed and seen a fundamental social change in our lives and we've seen it happen dramatically

[1:38:23] Voice 10: quickly we have the expertise on our islands right now to meet these challenges together we can become

[1:38:31] Voice 10: forward leading models for sustainable communities i ask islands trust council to engage with this

[1:38:38] Voice 10: work we need you to lead our communities into a mutually supporting supportive framework that

[1:38:45] Voice 10: respects and takes cues from our natural environment and the humans that live with

[1:38:50] Voice 10: and in it i thank you for your consideration i look forward to any questions now or in the

[1:38:57] Voice 10: future i will stay after the meeting this evening if you would like to know more about the human

[1:39:01] Voice 10: and right to housing and i welcome any invitations to engage further in any consultations on this

[1:39:09] Voice 10: matter as you make changes i wish peace on every one of your homes thank

[1:39:16] Voice 18: you thank you very much

[1:39:17] Voice 18: rianne um i'll ask are there any questions from any council members okay thank you bag did you

[1:39:27] Voice 18: you have a question? Oh,

[1:39:34] Voice 15: yes. Yeah, thank you for your

[1:39:37] Voice 15: presentation. I just was not quite clear. You started out

[1:39:42] Voice 15: with talking about the it sounded like not enforcing, like

[1:39:51] Voice 15: not kicking people out of their homes, basically, right, like

[1:39:54] Voice 15: over bylaws, or, you know, something like that. Is that

[1:39:58] Voice 15: that I get that right? Like there was too much enforcement,

[1:40:01] Voice 15: and we can't kick people out of their homes?

[1:40:05] Voice 18: Did I get that?

[1:40:08] Voice 18: So you'll need to turn your mic off so she can turn hers on.

[1:40:12] Voice 18: That's all right.

[1:40:13] Voice 10: Thank you for the question.

[1:40:18] Voice 10: The human right to housing is,

[1:40:23] Voice 10: it does not require you to provide housing.

[1:40:26] Voice 10: It does, however, require all governments

[1:40:28] Voice 10: cannot remove a person from their housing

[1:40:31] Voice 10: without providing an adequate and acceptable

[1:40:35] Voice 10: to the person to the individual without providing an alternative so that means that all enforcement

[1:40:42] Voice 10: has to change uh and my suggestion has been rather than focus on housing that bylaws need to

[1:40:50] Voice 10: focus on the effect of housing so what is the effect in terms of the water in terms of the

[1:40:56] Voice 10: sewage in terms of um how it's going to affect our natural environment as opposed to arbitrary

[1:41:03] Voice 10: arbitrary dwellings um there are a whole bunch of ways that we can address it but basically yes

[1:41:11] Voice 10: enforcement is um constrained by the human right to housing so current practices are

[1:41:18] Voice 10: out of date and systemically violate the human right to housing as it stands

[1:41:25] Voice 15: just just to follow up on that then then you later said the you know the dangers of

[1:41:33] Voice 15: like people can die in unsafe housing right like that you know unsafe housing couldn't be dangerous

[1:41:40] Voice 15: to people and so i'm just looking for the solution that you're proposing because that's two opposite

[1:41:46] Voice 15: things right like if you want to protect people from unsafe housing and you have bylaws that are

[1:41:52] Voice 15: basically protecting people from unsafe housing you yeah i'm confused does that make sense or

[1:42:04] Voice 10: It's actually the human right to adequate housing, and people are dying in inadequate housing.

[1:42:10] Voice 10: I'm not here to discuss safety. Actually, it is covered in the human right to adequate housing.

[1:42:18] Voice 10: If you read fact sheet 21 from the United Nations or any of the expansions on those, you will learn

[1:42:27] Voice 10: that actually unsafe is not what i'm talking about i'm talking about adequate housing and

[1:42:34] Voice 10: people are dying in inadequate housing um and insecure housing okay

[1:42:42] Voice 18: thank you joe bernardo

[1:42:46] Voice 4: thank you for your presentation uh mr selva the i i've got one question for you uh um

[1:42:52] Voice 4: So there's a dilemma, which is there's a widespread view, and it's not invalid, that limiting housing stock in the Islands Trust area is more or less essential to preserving the character of the islands.

[1:43:15] Voice 4: that there's simply just a limit to how much housing we can provide for human beings.

[1:43:23] Voice 4: That's why this is happening, that there's this much enforcement.

[1:43:27] Voice 4: What do you say about this tension between the need to preserve the environment

[1:43:33] Voice 4: and the character of the islands against the need to improve the housing stock

[1:43:41] Voice 4: so that people can live flourishing lives in the areas they want to live in thank you

[1:43:51] Voice 4: thank

[1:43:52] Voice 10: you for the question um these are the exact things that this is in my presentation uh to to

[1:44:01] Voice 10: that i'm asking if you can draw together an advisory planning committee or a group of people

[1:44:07] Voice 10: who will answer those kinds of questions because i think that is a long i've lived on dem in 26

[1:44:13] Voice 10: six years i know that that's a long-standing tension um it's even in our mandate as we i hope

[1:44:19] Voice 10: everybody here knows the full mandate is to preserve and protect for the benefit of residents

[1:44:26] Voice 10: of the island and british columbia so that tension exists right in the mandate and i think that those

[1:44:31] Voice 10: are the that's exactly what we need to address um the obligation what you need to say to the people

[1:44:38] Voice 10: in your home community is that there is a legal obligation to meet the human right to housing.

[1:44:44] Voice 10: That's just the law now, and while people are having a hard time accepting it and saying

[1:44:51] Voice 10: it's opinion, it's actually law, and I encourage you to send it to your lawyers, please, and see.

[1:44:58] Voice 10: I'm not sure if you've started that process yet, but I look forward to seeing what the

[1:45:02] Voice 10: The results of that are, but that is the law,

[1:45:06] Voice 10: is that the human right to housing is the law of Canada.

[1:45:13] Voice 18: Thank you.

[1:45:14] Voice 18: Deb Morrison.

[1:45:16] Voice 11: Thank you for your presentation.

[1:45:18] Voice 11: That last statement, can you just clarify?

[1:45:20] Voice 11: So is the law, if somebody is in inadequate housing,

[1:45:27] Voice 11: is the law that they can't be enforced on in the inadequate housing

[1:45:36] Voice 11: housing because they're unless there is an alternative housing uh option available to them

[1:45:43] Voice 11: is that the law or is the law that if they're in an adequate housing but it doesn't meet all bylaw

[1:45:50] Voice 11: that they can't be enforced on and unless they're offered alternative because i think like

[1:45:57] Voice 11: if somebody and this is like i'm an honest like question about this so because um if somebody is

[1:46:05] Voice 11: is in a shack on a beach, let's say, right?

[1:46:10] Voice 11: And it's something they self-constructed.

[1:46:12] Voice 11: Technically, it's housing and it's inadequate,

[1:46:14] Voice 11: but it was never zoned for.

[1:46:16] Voice 11: It's never something that was intended to be in that space.

[1:46:19] Voice 11: Do they have a housing dilemma?

[1:46:22] Voice 11: Absolutely, there is a dilemma there, right?

[1:46:25] Voice 11: So, but is there a legal obligation in that situation,

[1:46:28] Voice 11: are you saying, to have alternative housing arrangements

[1:46:32] Voice 11: for that person before they can be by law enforced on?

[1:46:39] Voice 10: I'm not a lawyer.

[1:46:41] Voice 10: My understanding, I have been studying the human right to housing for several years.

[1:46:47] Voice 10: I've provided you in my presentation in the agenda, there's a bunch of links to further

[1:46:53] Voice 10: information where you'll find the answers to these questions.

[1:46:56] Voice 10: As I understand it, different state agents, provinces, counties, that kind of thing, have

[1:47:06] Voice 10: have violated the human right to housing by removing shantytowns.

[1:47:13] Voice 10: So, actually, you're not supposed to remove anybody's house.

[1:47:19] Voice 10: These are the kinds of questions that your body needs to engage with.

[1:47:23] Voice 10: I'm here just telling you these are your moral and your legal obligations

[1:47:28] Voice 10: as a state agency of Canada.

[1:47:34] Voice 10: Canada. There's Canada, there's the province, and there's the special agency of the province,

[1:47:41] Voice 10: and the laws apply to you. I don't have all the answers. I really hope that we can work on finding

[1:47:50] Voice 10: them because we need them.

[1:47:54] Voice 18: Okay. Thank you again for the enlightening information you provided us.

[1:48:00] Voice 18: Appreciate it. Not seeing any other questions, I'm going to move on to my next speaker.

[1:48:04] Voice 18: and I believe it's Eric Booth who's coming to us online from Salt Spring, if I'm not mistaken.

[1:48:13] Voice 18: Eric, are you there? I am. There you are, almost live and in person.

[1:48:25] Voice 18: Eric, the floor is yours and you have 10 minutes, please.

[1:48:29] Voice 17: Great. Thank you, Chair Luckham, and good

[1:48:32] Voice 17: evening to all the elected representatives there in attendance. It's been 20 years since I first

[1:48:38] Voice 17: spoke to this issue at Trust Council as a trustee, and three years now since I came before Trust

[1:48:44] Voice 17: Council as a taxpaying citizen regarding the proverbial, reading the Proverbial Riot Act

[1:48:50] Voice 17: regarding how the inefficiency of processing of development applications was costing taxpayers

[1:48:56] Voice 17: over $2 million a year, which represents over 20% of the proposed 2023-2024 budget,

[1:49:03] Voice 17: budget primarily due to staff not following the long-established cost recovery policy which stated

[1:49:09] Voice 17: it is intended to provide the principles by which cost recovery for extraordinary services

[1:49:14] Voice 17: beyond the fee schedule can be negotiated between an applicant and a local trust committee and

[1:49:20] Voice 17: implemented. So in those three years what has been done to address this problem? In June 2020 the

[1:49:28] Voice 17: Director of Local Planning Services in response to my claim the policies were not being followed

[1:49:33] Voice 17: by staff rather incredulously stated that it was impossible for staff to follow the cost recovery

[1:49:39] Voice 17: policies. The very same policies which were written by staff 30 years ago in 1993 and which

[1:49:47] Voice 17: were specifically enacted by council to ensure taxpayers would not be saddled with the cost

[1:49:51] Voice 17: of processing more complex applications. Staff's response begs a number of questions, none of which

[1:49:58] Voice 17: to date and to the best of my knowledge have been either asked or answered. Question one,

[1:50:05] Voice 17: why did it take my submission to Trust Council for staff to admit that they were not following

[1:50:09] Voice 17: policies for 30 years? Question two, when exactly did staff realize the policies they had written

[1:50:17] Voice 17: were allegedly impossible to follow? Before or after Trust Council asked. Question three,

[1:50:24] Voice 17: 3. Subsequent to the response, did Trust Council ask its legal counsel for an opinion on whether the policies were impossible to follow, as staff has suggested?

[1:50:35] Voice 17: If, in fact, the existing policies were legally impossible to enforce, has Trust Council over the past three years acted to amend the policies to ensure they are being used to protect taxpayers?

[1:50:47] Voice 17: With all due respect, staff's 2020 response does not pass the smell test.

[1:50:51] Voice 17: asked, we're asked to believe that for 30 years, either A, staff knowingly ignored the policies,

[1:50:56] Voice 17: or B, staff knew they were unenforceable and did not inform LTCs, or C, staff were encouraged not

[1:51:02] Voice 17: to enforce them, or D, senior staff knowingly ignored the policies and or staff were just

[1:51:08] Voice 17: incompetent for 30 years, didn't pay any attention to the policies. I don't know which of these is

[1:51:13] Voice 17: true, but at least one of them is, and Trust Council and taxpayers deserve an answer. In any

[1:51:20] Voice 17: case, nine trust councils and all of the local trust committees from 1993 to 2020 were kept in

[1:51:25] Voice 17: the dark and apparently uninformed as the metric of inefficiency plummeted from an estimated 40%

[1:51:32] Voice 17: in 2007 to 7.4% in 2019. Conversely, the burden on taxpayers continued to climb and is now still,

[1:51:40] Voice 17: as I claimed, using trust data, likely over $2 million a year. This is not a minor problem.

[1:51:47] Voice 17: This is a major functional problem, which should have been addressed long ago.

[1:51:53] Voice 17: I've recently been made aware of a change in policy in June 2021, whereby the allegedly impossible cost recovery policies were conveniently repealed and replaced with a policy to, quote,

[1:52:03] Voice 17: recover from applicants 100% of the average cost of processing the development applications.

[1:52:08] Voice 17: applications. To date, Saterna and North Pender have not adopted the new fees by-law and are

[1:52:14] Voice 17: currently charging anywhere up to 45% less for the most expensive fees, $4,400 versus $7,800.

[1:52:22] Voice 17: While the new policy sounds like an improvement on the surface, my questions now become,

[1:52:27] Voice 17: the new policy is not a directive policy. In other words, there is no requirement in the model fees

[1:52:33] Voice 17: by-law themselves for a local trust committee to actually recover 100% of the average cost

[1:52:38] Voice 17: of processing an application. Given we already know the monetary consequences of having policies

[1:52:43] Voice 17: that were allegedly impossible to follow for 30 years, why do we now have a policy that

[1:52:48] Voice 17: is not concisely direct LTCs to ensure the recovery of 100% of the average cost of process?

[1:52:56] Voice 17: I submit it is incumbent upon trust counsel to ensure that recovery of costs is actually

[1:53:02] Voice 17: occurring and so there should be a reporting mechanism from each of the regional planning

[1:53:06] Voice 17: managers on a monthly basis indicating where cost recovery over and above the application fees

[1:53:12] Voice 17: has occurred. Otherwise, who is auditing the process to ensure the new policy is actually

[1:53:18] Voice 17: being implemented as intended and or adhered to by Honest Trust staff? In other words,

[1:53:24] Voice 17: whereas the worksheet mechanism should be used by staff which will ensure the policy's intention is

[1:53:30] Voice 17: being achieved on each and every application because I'm not seeing it yet and in spite of the

[1:53:34] Voice 17: the previously existing 15 worksheets that were used prior.

[1:53:39] Voice 17: Mathematically, if all the planners are required

[1:53:41] Voice 17: to recover 100% of the average cost

[1:53:43] Voice 17: of processing applications,

[1:53:45] Voice 17: there must be a mechanism to show

[1:53:47] Voice 17: how that is being achieved.

[1:53:49] Voice 17: Using the 2023 to 2024 projected fee revenue of 192,000

[1:53:54] Voice 17: and dividing that by say $60 an hour equals 3,200 hours,

[1:53:59] Voice 17: 426 days, 85 weeks, or about two full-time planners,

[1:54:03] Voice 17: including holidays and vacations.

[1:54:05] Voice 17: Mathematically, that should be all the planners

[1:54:08] Voice 17: that are required to recover 100% of the average cost

[1:54:10] Voice 17: of processing applications in all trust areas.

[1:54:15] Voice 17: Which begs the next question, which is,

[1:54:17] Voice 17: how much was actually spent on application processing

[1:54:19] Voice 17: over the last year?

[1:54:22] Voice 17: I submit the primary reason staff has been working

[1:54:24] Voice 17: at the reported less than 10% efficiency

[1:54:26] Voice 17: is for whatever reasons,

[1:54:27] Voice 17: they're spending too much time on processing applications.

[1:54:31] Voice 17: And there are a couple of ways of solving that.

[1:54:33] Voice 17: I've been dealing with the honours trust on a professional level for about 35 years,

[1:54:37] Voice 17: including my time as a developer, a land use planning consultant, and a trustee from 2002 to

[1:54:42] Voice 17: 2005. It's been my observation from both outside and inside the organization that the trust has

[1:54:48] Voice 17: had an ongoing problem with keeping planning staff. Salt Spring is a prime example. As a result

[1:54:54] Voice 17: of regular turnover, we have brand new planners, usually junior planners with little or no real

[1:54:59] Voice 17: world experience in planning being dropped into a jurisdiction with a complicated OCP and land use

[1:55:04] Voice 17: bylaws. My suggestion, given this is and has been an ongoing challenge, is to have staff in the

[1:55:11] Voice 17: local trust committees recommend to development application proponents that they contract with

[1:55:16] Voice 17: independent land use contractors to develop the staff reports necessary to process their

[1:55:22] Voice 17: applications. This is not an unknown or unusual event. Many applicants have previously contracted

[1:55:28] Voice 17: planners who, while being paid by the applicants, report directly to the regional planning managers.

[1:55:33] Voice 17: The contract planners are certified registered professional planners. The vast majority of

[1:55:39] Voice 17: these independent planners are well-seasoned and are more experienced than the average

[1:55:42] Voice 17: Islands Trust planner. The benefit of this direction would be threefold. Firstly, it could

[1:55:48] Voice 17: save taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars and quite possibly more than a million dollars

[1:55:52] Voice 17: per year. Secondly, it would reduce the burden on Island's trust staff's time, which could free

[1:55:58] Voice 17: them up for dealing with all the other non-application work that they deal with.

[1:56:02] Voice 17: If the direction proves itself very successful, it would likely reduce the need for existing

[1:56:07] Voice 17: number of trust planners long-term. Thirdly, it would allow an applicant to proceed with

[1:56:12] Voice 17: the application in less time, given contract planners work like any contracted professional

[1:56:17] Voice 17: architect, engineer, or construction contractor. Thus, the applicants, the taxpayers, the local

[1:56:23] Voice 17: trust committees, and staff could benefit from this proposal. Now, the proposal will not cost

[1:56:29] Voice 17: the trust or taxpayers a penny to implement. It would be implemented by staff simply suggesting

[1:56:33] Voice 17: to applicants they consider the benefit of saving time and money by using an RPP contract planner

[1:56:38] Voice 17: to assist the implementation, assembling a list of independent planners on Vancouver Island or

[1:56:43] Voice 17: Vancouver area who would be prepared to work with trust would be beneficial to applicants.

[1:56:49] Voice 17: As I stated at the outset, the underlying intent of the policy of cost recovery is to ensure that

[1:56:54] Voice 17: taxpayers do not have to subsidize developers, but rather that developers pay their fair share

[1:57:00] Voice 17: while receiving fair value for service for the fees they pay. So I'll leave you to consider and

[1:57:06] Voice 17: answer the questions I've raised and consider the implementation of my proposal as an effective

[1:57:11] Voice 17: and efficient method of reducing the Trust's budgetary requirements for the benefit of those

[1:57:16] Voice 17: who are paying the cost and salaries of the Trust, the taxpayers, who, under the Islands Trust Act,

[1:57:23] Voice 17: be elected each and every one of you to represent their vast interests. Thank you, and I'd be happy

[1:57:30] Voice 17: to respond to any follow-up questions you may have.

[1:57:34] Voice 18: So thank you, Eric, for joining us today.

[1:57:36] Voice 18: I'll ask trustees if there are any questions for the delegate. Jamie Harris.

[1:57:42] Voice 16: Hi, Rick. Thanks for the presentation. So if I'm picking up where you're laying down here,

[1:57:49] Voice 16: you're saying that the efficiency rate in relationship to land use applications

[1:57:57] Voice 16: is at this point less than 2%?

[1:58:02] Voice 17: No. What I'm saying is it's, according to the trust documents from

[1:58:07] Voice 17: 2019 it's less than 10 percent so

[1:58:11] Voice 16: what would this you know for because this is you know complicated

[1:58:17] Voice 16: in my mind at this time of day but what would a thousand dollar application land use application

[1:58:25] Voice 16: but you know somebody comes in their application is going to cost a thousand bucks

[1:58:29] Voice 16: what does that cost the taxpayer well

[1:58:34] Voice 17: that's going to be dependent totally dependent on how fast that

[1:58:37] Voice 17: application is processed and if you look at the previous 15 worksheets that I referred to that

[1:58:43] Voice 17: were that were developed by honest trust staff going back in 1993 they have a breakdown for each

[1:58:50] Voice 17: of the types of development applications development variance permit development permit

[1:58:56] Voice 17: rezoning etc they have a breakdown of the number of hours for each part of that process so what

[1:59:04] Voice 17: What should be happening would seem logical is that those worksheets, a planner should be able

[1:59:11] Voice 17: to follow that time requirement or the time that was listed there. That was the intent of them

[1:59:18] Voice 17: originally. Whether they need to be amended to slightly different time amounts now, I don't know.

[1:59:28] Voice 17: No, but that is the mechanism by which you can actually gauge how long an application is taking.

[1:59:35] Voice 17: And I suggested in 2004 to Trust Council that Trust Council enact time tracking software in order to get a better handle on why it was costing at that time an average of $17,000 per application to process.

[1:59:53] Voice 16: An average of $17,000?

[1:59:55] Voice 16: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, can I follow up with?

[2:00:00] Voice 18: Sure. I don't see

[2:00:00] Voice 16: any other hands

[2:00:01] Voice 18: up for questions, so go ahead.

[2:00:02] Voice 18: Thank you.

[2:00:02] Voice 18: We do have other speakers waiting.

[2:00:04] Voice 16: So, Eric, you said an average of $17,000 per application was the cost?

[2:00:10] Voice 16: That

[2:00:11] Voice 17: was back in 2004, 2005, and that was operating at about a 40% efficiency.

[2:00:18] Voice 17: We're now down below 10%, so multiply it times four, and you've got something in the neighborhood of $70,000 on average for a cost for an application.

[2:00:28] Voice 17: That's the math of it.

[2:00:30] Voice 16: Is there any

[2:00:31] Voice 16: idea what an application cost average is?

[2:00:34] Voice 16: I'm sorry?

[2:00:36] Voice 16: Would there be an average on what the cost of the application is to the applicant?

[2:00:42] Voice 17: Well, therein lies the problem.

[2:00:44] Voice 17: Up until this recent change in policy, and I don't know whether it's actually been enacted,

[2:00:50] Voice 17: but up to this recent change in policy, the applicants weren't being charged for the extra

[2:00:58] Voice 17: amount of time that it was taking over and above what would be the the estimated time would be

[2:01:03] Voice 17: using those worksheets so that's where the the two million extra two million dollars is being

[2:01:09] Voice 17: spent in time somewhere we don't know where because from what i understand there is no

[2:01:14] Voice 17: tracking of that time okay

[2:01:17] Voice 18: so i'd like to go to another speaker okay great thank you jamie sorry

[2:01:22] Voice 18: All right. Deb Morrison.

[2:01:25] Voice 11: Thanks, Eric. I remember the last time you presented, and I was one of the people who actually followed up on this particular trajectory of thought on a number of different Trust Council meetings.

[2:01:38] Voice 11: So there is tracking software for this, for tracking permits.

[2:01:44] Voice 11: They have been tracking them for two years, at least, I think.

[2:01:48] Voice 11: And we have some average cost estimates.

[2:01:51] Voice 11: There's a report, and I can't remember if Stephen can probably like circulate it around for us, but there was a report in one of the Trust Council packages around this just before that informed the model fee bylaws.

[2:02:04] Voice 11: So thank you for all of that.

[2:02:06] Voice 11: And that, like a lot of the stuff that you had presented before, instigated that sort of thinking for me as well as the budget.

[2:02:12] Voice 11: So to answer your first question, I was on it before the last time you reported it because the budget is actually what triggered it for me.

[2:02:19] Voice 11: um i'm curious i guess about you're using the word developer when you talk about permitting work

[2:02:26] Voice 11: and we have a number of permits on our i'm one of the rogue north pender trustees by the way

[2:02:32] Voice 11: and so we have a number of permits on our island where it's a citizen who has some minor alteration

[2:02:40] Voice 11: of something they need to do and they need to submit a permit and so we're reluctant to increase

[2:02:45] Voice 11: increase the cost of our permits because of those situations so how do we differentiate between

[2:02:49] Voice 11: those and what what might be what you're talking about more which is a more extensive development

[2:02:54] Voice 11: kind of component okay

[2:02:55] Voice 17: so from what i understand the new policy that was put into effect in june

[2:02:59] Voice 17: 2021 says you're supposed to be collecting 100 of the cost of processing that application whatever

[2:03:07] Voice 17: that application is if it's a minor one that it might be 200 or 400 or whatever but that's what

[2:03:13] Voice 17: what your current policy says. And from what I understand, all but two of the LTCs now have

[2:03:19] Voice 17: adopted that model fees bylaw. So I'm hoping that there's going to be an implementation of the 100%,

[2:03:28] Voice 17: which is the intention of reducing the cost or actually increasing the efficiency as well as

[2:03:38] Voice 17: dealing with the cost to taxpayers thank

[2:03:43] Voice 11: you the policy actually says the average cost i believe

[2:03:48] Voice 11: which is what is getting us right now and that's the

[2:03:52] Voice 11: problem is because our little guys are getting

[2:03:54] Voice 11: sucked up into the average cost of the bigger permits well

[2:03:57] Voice 17: the my understanding is that it's

[2:04:00] Voice 17: and this is where the model fees bylaw set the new rates why it's gone from 4,800 to say 7,800

[2:04:09] Voice 17: or something is that there was that calculation that was done staff and that was what i think

[2:04:14] Voice 17: that was one of the reports that you're referring to so staff did do the calculation that's what

[2:04:19] Voice 17: created the model fees bylaw so whatever that uh application that you're referring to like a minor

[2:04:25] Voice 17: application that should have been taken into consideration at the time the model fees bylaw

[2:04:29] Voice 17: was uh drafted thank you

[2:04:35] Voice 18: okay thank you again eric for presenting today not seeing any more

[2:04:41] Voice 18: questions here so i'm going to move on to my final delegate today thank you again um so we have

[2:04:48] Voice 18: michael sketch who has joined us also in person um thank you for coming today i'm roth pender

[2:04:55] Voice 18: and i'll turn it over to you michael can

[2:05:01] Voice 23: you hear me clearly yes

[2:05:03] Voice 18: counselors

[2:05:07] Voice 23: you've had a

[2:05:07] Voice 23: a very full day i've listened to much of it a great deal of thought thought um and here i am

[2:05:14] Voice 23: I am with a serious concern with some detail in it.

[2:05:19] Voice 23: I ask you for three pages of attention.

[2:05:25] Voice 23: I speak to the underpinning of a draft bylaw on offer to local trust committees which allows

[2:05:32] Voice 23: delegation of LTC deliberation and decision making to staff respecting issuance of development

[2:05:41] Voice 23: permits in the development permit area, it's a DPA.

[2:05:45] Voice 23: Not every island uses that Local Government Act tool, but it has some merit, and coupled

[2:05:54] Voice 23: with the Trust Policy Statement, that's what you have available to preserve and protect

[2:05:59] Voice 23: to carry out the object.

[2:06:02] Voice 23: Provincial legislation provides for optional DPAs and the mandatory Trust Policy Statement

[2:06:08] Voice 23: to carry out the object of the Trust.

[2:06:12] Voice 23: Two trust area jurisdictions have adopted the DPA permit delegation by law, and one LTC has delayed

[2:06:19] Voice 23: decision on adoption for a year. In this submission, I argue, based on the Act, that one,

[2:06:29] Voice 23: delegation of LTC decision-making to staff on matters directly relating to the trust object

[2:06:37] Voice 23: is inappropriate at best, and two, that the recent enabling legislation for a DPA permit

[2:06:46] Voice 23: delegation by law should be rescinded. My submissions to council in the last term have

[2:06:55] Voice 23: shown why the trust policy statement, the TPS, hasn't been as effective as it could and should

[2:07:02] Voice 23: have been at protecting sustaining elements of the natural environment. The credibility of the

[2:07:09] Voice 23: trust in carrying out the object is at even greater risk if council supports local bylaws

[2:07:17] Voice 23: which may diminish the effectiveness of DPA protection. The consultants for

[2:07:25] Voice 23: council's recent governance review commented that to a person, whatever their differences

[2:07:32] Voice 23: on collateral matters, councillors supported the legislative preserve and protect trust object

[2:07:39] Voice 23: to a person. The realistic caveat is that disagreement based on conflicting interests

[2:07:47] Voice 23: amongst councillors, amongst land use planning staff and amongst public advice givers has

[2:07:54] Voice 23: confounded an effective implementation of the object in the TPS. In the decades since the TPS

[2:08:02] Voice 23: was legislated, council should have recognized the conflicting interests. Council should have

[2:08:10] Voice 23: implemented the object in TPS policies with a rationale which is securely based in the act

[2:08:17] Voice 23: rather than at the sometime behest of conflicting interests. The consequence of council not doing so

[2:08:30] Voice 23: though, has been a very flexible implementation of policies to the extent that key preserve and

[2:08:37] Voice 23: protect policies may be adhered to in local trust area jurisdiction bylaws or reason given by the

[2:08:45] Voice 23: local area not to adhere. Contrary to a flexible implementation of TPS policies for local

[2:08:54] Voice 23: jurisdictions, Section 4 of the Act is definite that council and LTC are established and continued

[2:09:05] Voice 23: for the purpose of carrying out the object. It follows that LTC decision-making must carry out

[2:09:13] Voice 23: the object. There's no flexibility there, and that's quite distinct from the Local Government

[2:09:18] Voice 23: Act provisions for a municipal council.

[2:09:21] Voice 23: There's no analogue of Section 4 in the

[2:09:25] Voice 23: Local Government Act for municipal councils.

[2:09:29] Voice 23: With potential for failure of

[2:09:31] Voice 23: the TPS to carry out the object,

[2:09:33] Voice 23: the Trust mustn't fail to be fully

[2:09:36] Voice 23: effective in LTC decision making

[2:09:38] Voice 23: for DPA permit issuance.

[2:09:43] Voice 23: Where specific DPA legislation to

[2:09:46] Voice 23: protect the natural environment,

[2:09:50] Voice 23: DPA assignment carries out the trust object.

[2:09:53] Voice 23: So too will subsequent LTC deliberation and decision making for granting or not development

[2:10:01] Voice 23: permit within a DPA.

[2:10:04] Voice 23: Deborah Curran, UVic Environmental Law, advises a LTC can have a significant impact on how

[2:10:13] Voice 23: and how much development may occur on a property within a DPA.

[2:10:18] Voice 23: A LTC may designate a DPA on the OCP, and I quote Deborah, where the LTC has evidence before them

[2:10:30] Voice 23: that would convince a reasonable person that a DPA designation is necessary to carry out the object.

[2:10:38] Voice 23: This is no fluff. It's serious decision-making, and if the assignment of a DPA is that serious,

[2:10:46] Voice 23: so too should be the assignment of a permit to excuse the resident.

[2:10:52] Voice 23: The object in Section 4 of the Act constrains a local trust committee

[2:10:58] Voice 23: in land use deliberation and decisions,

[2:11:00] Voice 23: compared with much greater flexibility for municipal councils.

[2:11:05] Voice 23: For a municipal council, Section 229, Part 7 of the Local Government Act

[2:11:10] Voice 23: allows an elected municipal council to delegate development permit issuance

[2:11:16] Voice 23: and other decision-making to employees.

[2:11:21] Voice 23: But the Islands Trust Act does not authorize

[2:11:25] Voice 23: the general delegation permissions in Part 7,

[2:11:29] Voice 23: nor does the Act give direct permission to an LCC

[2:11:33] Voice 23: to delegate the issuance of DPA land use permits to staff.

[2:11:38] Voice 23: I say direct.

[2:11:44] Voice 23: If the rules and principles of the Act

[2:11:47] Voice 23: don't give that delegation authority directly,

[2:11:50] Voice 23: then there must be a very compelling reason

[2:11:52] Voice 23: to invoke delegation authority by what I've called the backdoor of Islands Trust regulation,

[2:11:59] Voice 23: as has been done. Let's look at how the delegation authority was given, and then whether or not the

[2:12:08] Voice 23: argument to permit the LTC delegation authority to staff is in fact compelling. I argue it is not.

[2:12:17] Voice 23: The answer to how is that the Act provides for a request to the province

[2:12:22] Voice 23: that the Lieutenant Governor and Council

[2:12:25] Voice 23: can amend by order the Islands Trust Regulation

[2:12:29] Voice 23: to give specific permission for LTCs

[2:12:33] Voice 23: to delegate permit issuance and the DPA to stop.

[2:12:38] Voice 23: But there is an important caveat.

[2:12:42] Voice 23: The request of the Lieutenant Governor and Council

[2:12:45] Voice 23: must only be made where a condition

[2:12:48] Voice 23: of the Interpretation Act is met,

[2:12:51] Voice 23: Provincial Interpretation Act.

[2:12:54] Voice 23: Namely, that the proposed delegation authority regulation is ancillary to the Act.

[2:13:02] Voice 23: They don't give it up on the cheap.

[2:13:05] Voice 23: There have to be conditions, otherwise it would be in the Act in the first place.

[2:13:11] Voice 23: So the delegation authority regulation must be ancillary to the Act.

[2:13:16] Voice 23: I argue that delegation to staff of LTC decision-making, germane to implementing the object, is entirely

[2:13:23] Voice 23: entirely unnecessary to that preeminent purpose under Section 4 of the Act.

[2:13:28] Voice 23: In that circumstance, delegated authority isn't ancillary to the Act.

[2:13:35] Voice 23: I ask you to believe.

[2:13:38] Voice 23: Further, note the staff rationale for delegated DPA permit issuance in Policy 4.1.15.

[2:13:47] Voice 23: That's in the Trust Policy Manual.

[2:13:48] Voice 23: manual. First, to improve land use planning efficiency, reduce the number of items on LTC

[2:13:57] Voice 23: agendas, and streamline permit processing. And two, the delegation of the power to issue

[2:14:07] Voice 23: development permits to staff has been recommended by external reviews. Yes, the staff interest is

[2:14:16] Voice 23: is served, but neither rationale is based on Section 4 of the Act, which requires that

[2:14:24] Voice 23: an LTC carry out the object with no provision in the Act for delegation of decision authority

[2:14:30] Voice 23: to employees of Council in matters germane to that purpose.

[2:14:35] Voice 23: Neither rationale reasonably compensates for the loss of co-operative LTC and staff deliberation

[2:14:42] Voice 23: an open meeting to decide on the issuance of development permits in the dpa and my conclusion

[2:14:52] Voice 23: to you is councillors please give direction to begin the process to rescind provincial order

[2:14:59] Voice 23: in council 597 2021 and thereby regulation 175 2021 which now amends islands trust regulation

[2:15:12] Voice 23: That's in my delegation submission, which I emailed to you a day or two ago.

[2:15:19] Voice 23: So returning certainty that it is the LTC who decides on the issuance of development

[2:15:24] Voice 23: permits for land in the DPA, not staff.

[2:15:28] Voice 23: Thank you.

[2:15:30] Voice 18: Thank you, Michael.

[2:15:31] Voice 18: Any questions for the delegate?

[2:15:37] Voice 18: Marie Boland.

[2:15:40] Voice 18: You'll turn your microphone off there, Michael.

[2:15:43] Voice 18: off. Thank you.

[2:15:47] Voice 6: Thank you. Thank you, Michael. You've been here a long time and listened to us

[2:15:54] Voice 6: all. So thank you for staying. Are you telling us that the recently adopted policy of delegating

[2:16:03] Voice 6: certain decisions to staff, you take issue with that? Is that what we're talking about?

[2:16:13] Voice 6: but there is a policy that was recently adopted.

[2:16:16] Voice 6: Okay, thank you.

[2:16:17] Voice 6: The

[2:16:18] Voice 23: policy I'm referring to is very, very specific

[2:16:21] Voice 23: and it relates to development permit areas

[2:16:24] Voice 23: and the issuance of permits therein.

[2:16:27] Voice 23: And it's in the Trust Policy Manual 4.1.15.

[2:16:33] Voice 23: Yes, that's what I'm referring to.

[2:16:35] Voice 23: And it is egregious, in my view,

[2:16:39] Voice 23: in that it's dealing with a delegation

[2:16:42] Voice 23: of a responsibility and obligation

[2:16:45] Voice 23: given the LTC by the province

[2:16:49] Voice 23: germane to, and this is really important,

[2:16:52] Voice 23: germane to carrying out the object of the trust.

[2:16:57] Voice 23: If it wasn't, perhaps,

[2:17:00] Voice 23: and staff quote other incidental permits,

[2:17:04] Voice 23: they're not so serious.

[2:17:05] Voice 23: And maybe they can be delegated.

[2:17:07] Voice 23: But this one, I think, is very touchy.

[2:17:09] Voice 23: And most important, although I'm sure a lawyer amongst you will quibble with me on the dictionary definition of ancillary, the requirement is in the Act, the Interpretation Act, that when the lieutenant governor asks for that permission,

[2:17:31] Voice 23: The lieutenant governor must be informed by you on the merits of asking for that delegated

[2:17:40] Voice 23: authority.

[2:17:42] Voice 23: It must be unnecessary, or rather unnecessary, in order to have that act effected.

[2:17:52] Voice 23: That's why the provision is there, but in this case the purported reason for it is staff

[2:17:58] Voice 23: efficiency and streamlining of this and that and it's it's i repeat one of the two tools you have

[2:18:05] Voice 23: available to you to preserve and protect trust policy statement which i have argued at length

[2:18:12] Voice 23: against the effectiveness of needs rewriting and this tool which needs resending it's your job

[2:18:20] Voice 23: not staff

[2:18:22] Voice 18: okay thank you any other questions oh joe bernardo uh

[2:18:30] Voice 4: isn't what you're saying

[2:18:32] Voice 4: Doesn't it boil down to saying that the Lieutenant Governor and Council blew it?

[2:18:38] Voice 4: That that body, which is to say the cabinet, didn't really know what it was doing because it had interpreted the word ancillary basically in the wrong way.

[2:18:55] Voice 23: Now we come down to the finer points.

[2:18:58] Voice 23: And you're quite right.

[2:19:00] Voice 23: The Interpretation Act requires not that you, council, but the lieutenant governor in council

[2:19:08] Voice 23: makes that request, gives that order on the basis of ancillary, but how on earth

[2:19:15] Voice 23: is the lieutenant governor in council to know whether or not DPAs in the trust area

[2:19:22] Voice 23: can be given by staff or it contravenes the object.

[2:19:30] Voice 23: Part of the trust object is to cooperate with the province, provincial authorities.

[2:19:36] Voice 23: This is not cooperation. If it was just sent, I don't know the background, as a request,

[2:19:43] Voice 23: with no corroborating information and certainly no deliberation in council, as far as I can see,

[2:19:49] Voice 23: then that word insular, it wasn't thought of.

[2:19:54] Voice 23: It just didn't matter.

[2:19:56] Voice 23: Here was a request that purported to serve some purpose, and let's give it.

[2:20:01] Voice 23: But it wasn't thought through by Trust Council.

[2:20:03] Voice 23: Thank you again.

[2:20:07] Voice 18: Question and answer?

[2:20:09] Voice 18: Anything further?

[2:20:12] Voice 18: Okay.

[2:20:13] Voice 18: Thank you, Michael, for joining us again.

[2:20:16] Voice 18: We are now going to go to the public comment period,

[2:20:19] Voice 18: and we have it looks like 10 individuals in our audience and possibly some folks in the room here

[2:20:26] Voice 18: and I'm going to ask for those that wish to address council that are online to raise your

[2:20:34] Voice 18: hands and while that is going on and leave them raised please I'm going to see who's in the

[2:20:40] Voice 18: audience here that wishes to speak to council so we have two people within the audience here to

[2:20:45] Voice 18: to speak up. So I think I'm going to alternate between individuals online and individuals in

[2:20:53] Voice 18: the room,

[2:20:54] Voice 18: and we'll get through this as soon as we can. Looks like I've got four people who want

[2:20:59] Voice 18: to speak here. So I'm going to start at the top of my list here, and then I'll come to you,

[2:21:03] Voice 18: gentlemen. Elizabeth White, you're online. If we can get Elizabeth promoted to speaker,

[2:21:07] Voice 18: speaker will hear what she has to say. And please try to keep your presentation to two minutes.

[2:21:17] Voice 13: Yes, certainly. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. I'm speaking from Salt Spring

[2:21:23] Voice 13: for Positively Forward, a collaboration of Islanders advocating for improved local governance.

[2:21:29] Voice 13: And we oppose Trustee Harris's recommendation to rescind Council's 2020 request to the province

[2:21:36] Voice 13: for jurisdiction over tree-cutting.

[2:21:39] Voice 13: Positively Forward asked trustees to vote no to this resolution

[2:21:43] Voice 13: and to pursue the original request to the province.

[2:21:47] Voice 13: If granted, Trust Council's request would extend to the Islands Trust

[2:21:53] Voice 13: the current municipal authority over tree-cutting by-laws,

[2:21:57] Voice 13: which is not unreasonable given the original intent

[2:22:00] Voice 13: of the Islands Trust's object to preserve and protect.

[2:22:03] Voice 13: protect. Authority over tree cutting bylaws would not prohibit all tree cutting, but would enable

[2:22:09] Voice 13: its regulation where appropriate. Transferring management of the island's forests from the

[2:22:16] Voice 13: province to the trust would considerably strengthen the trust's ability to meet its mandate

[2:22:21] Voice 13: and would facilitate the remapping of development permit areas where logging needs to be regulated

[2:22:27] Voice 13: in the interests of fire mitigation, water conservation, biodiversity and climate change

[2:22:34] Voice 13: impacts. Effective local management of our declining forest cover is the simplest means

[2:22:41] Voice 13: we have of responding to the climate emergency with nature-based solutions. Please vote no to

[2:22:48] Voice 13: this resolution on March the 9th and ask the province to provide the trust with the ability

[2:22:53] Voice 13: to regulate tree removal thank you so much for providing the opportunity to speak

[2:22:58] Voice 18: okay thank

[2:23:01] Voice 18: you very much uh for joining us today elizabeth and your message um i'm going to proceed now to

[2:23:07] Voice 18: the next speaker i'm going to go to one of the gentlemen in the room here um who would like to

[2:23:10] Voice 18: go first chair

[2:23:11] Voice 11: luckham can i ask a quick question just a few yes um

[2:23:15] Voice 11: i just didn't catch the last

[2:23:16] Voice 11: name of the prior speaker

[2:23:17] Voice 18: elizabeth white thank you

[2:23:21] Voice 18: microphones up there sir please and if you

[2:23:24] Voice 18: You just give us your name, and you get up there,

[2:23:26] Voice 18: and you have

[2:23:27] Voice 18: two minutes to address council.

[2:23:33] Voice 20: There?

[2:23:34] Voice 20: Yeah, perfect.

[2:23:35] Voice 20: Thank you.

[2:23:36] Voice 20: My name is Bob McKechnie.

[2:23:37] Voice 20: I've been living on Gabriola for 28 years now,

[2:23:42] Voice 20: and I'm speaking on behalf of myself as a citizen, of course,

[2:23:48] Voice 20: but as well I'm a member of the Nanaimo Airport Noise Mitigation.

[2:23:54] Voice 20: uh i'm inclined to call it a committee but they want to call it a round table so it's a round

[2:23:59] Voice 20: table whatever that means and i'm also speaking on behalf of my fellow noise mitigation committee

[2:24:08] Voice 20: member don elkington so um i have submitted a letter i got it it came in as late correspondence

[2:24:18] Voice 20: i don't know your privy to we received

[2:24:20] Voice 18: that this morning and it was circulated to trustees by email

[2:24:24] Voice 18: mail so thank you for your letter go

[2:24:25] Voice 20: ahead so undoubtedly they've had a busy day and haven't

[2:24:29] Voice 20: read it so i i want to speak to that very briefly uh it has to do with nav can's recent plan

[2:24:35] Voice 20: announced proposal to move um one of the flight but now i'm gonna have to qualify this i'm speaking

[2:24:43] Voice 20: only for gabriela i don't know about the rest of the trust area but they are basically changing

[2:24:48] Voice 20: changing the flight plans for aircraft arriving at YVR Vancouver Airport and the particular one

[2:24:55] Voice 20: that has raised our concern is one that was formerly coming in into the Gulf over Lance

[2:25:02] Voice 20: it started to Fino into over into the Gulf over Lanceville and then lined up for the runway at YVR

[2:25:11] Voice 20: YVR, one of the two runways that YVR heading east.

[2:25:16] Voice 20: And they proposing to change that now

[2:25:18] Voice 20: for reasons we haven't figured out,

[2:25:21] Voice 20: nor did they tell us, start Tofino,

[2:25:26] Voice 20: and then it comes to, I'm sorry,

[2:25:28] Voice 20: I've lost my sense of direction,

[2:25:30] Voice 20: but Tofino to South Nanaimo, wherever it is,

[2:25:33] Voice 20: then it makes a sharp right turn

[2:25:35] Voice 20: and comes right out into the Gulf over Gabriola.

[2:25:41] Voice 20: Now, that needless to say has invoked a lot of concern on the island, and so then I will

[2:25:50] Voice 20: take it a step further by saying the concern, of course, is do you want more airplanes flying

[2:25:55] Voice 20: over?

[2:25:55] Voice 20: And I don't know what's happening in the rest of the trust area.

[2:25:59] Voice 20: Don and I and AWOD as well have been focused on what's happening for Gabriela.

[2:26:05] Voice 20: so undoubtedly there'll be some other flight plan changes but i can't speak to those at the moment

[2:26:11] Voice 20: anyway um they had a public consultation about this and we all participated and

[2:26:20] Voice 20: and and here's where my complaint starts it was not really a an interactive thing they weren't

[2:26:28] Voice 20: asking us what are what do you think about this or not they were basically saying this is the way

[2:26:33] Voice 20: way it is, and if you've got any questions.

[2:26:38] Voice 20: So the first question they couldn't answer was why.

[2:26:43] Voice 20: And I asked that at the public consultation,

[2:26:47] Voice 20: which was online, not very satisfactory

[2:26:49] Voice 20: because they were in complete crawl of it,

[2:26:51] Voice 20: but they didn't, the only answer,

[2:26:54] Voice 20: they sort of all looked at each other

[2:26:56] Voice 20: and they basically shrugged their shoulders.

[2:26:59] Voice 20: And the answer I got was, well,

[2:27:01] Voice 20: So it's being studied, and that's the recommendation.

[2:27:06] Voice 20: So two minutes isn't very much.

[2:27:08] Voice 20: I have written this letter.

[2:27:10] Voice 20: I understand it will be considered on Thursday morning,

[2:27:15] Voice 20: and I just urge you to pay attention to it.

[2:27:19] Voice 20: The conflict, of course, or the situation is we've got business interests on one side.

[2:27:25] Voice 20: NAVCAN is a privately owned nonprofit society.

[2:27:34] Voice 20: They've got a board of 15 people.

[2:27:38] Voice 20: These are all airline industry people.

[2:27:42] Voice 20: Their mandate off the website is, first of all, to promote or to...

[2:27:52] Voice 20: Sorry, you have gone quite a bit over time.

[2:27:54] Voice 20: okay should i stop but anyway it's it's all written in the letter yeah uh and basically

[2:28:00] Voice 20: the consultation process uh to put it bluntly was a farce and uh and i'm gonna urge trust council to

[2:28:09] Voice 20: do what the mayor of moody and uh to uh and also who protested this thing and you'll see that

[2:28:19] Voice 20: that just in my letter, so.

[2:28:21] Voice 18: So thank you, thank you very much.

[2:28:23] Voice 18: I didn't want to cut you off.

[2:28:24] Voice 18: It's an important message,

[2:28:25] Voice 18: but I can't show any favoritism or unfairness.

[2:28:29] Voice 20: I totally understand, for sure.

[2:28:30] Voice 20: Well, thank you for the time.

[2:28:32] Voice 20: Thank you, sir.

[2:28:33] Voice 20: And if

[2:28:33] Voice 20: anybody has any,

[2:28:34] Voice 20: I want to say one more thing.

[2:28:37] Voice 20: If anybody wants more information,

[2:28:39] Voice 20: Don and I and Ewa are,

[2:28:42] Voice 20: we're quite versed on what's going on

[2:28:44] Voice 20: and we can provide a lot of details if you want,

[2:28:46] Voice 20: but of course I'm not going to get into that here.

[2:28:49] Voice 20: thank you thank

[2:28:50] Voice 18: you um so i'm going to go back to online here now i see dave um as of only a first

[2:28:58] Voice 18: name we'll promote dave to be a speaker and um if you can contain yourself to two minutes it'd be

[2:29:06] Voice 18: appreciated by the many tired counselors that are sitting here i

[2:29:11] Voice 29: can imagine yes that thanks first

[2:29:14] Voice 29: First, thank you for allowing me to speak in this dawning age of censorship.

[2:29:18] Voice 29: This long acknowledged right is fast becoming a privilege.

[2:29:23] Voice 29: Next, I'd also like to acknowledge that many trustees are new to your role, which, of course, reflects your constituents desire for change in how we are governed.

[2:29:32] Voice 29: I believe that this desire for change largely stems from the fact that a year ago, the residents of the trust were surveyed about this past year's budget.

[2:29:42] Voice 29: The results? 80% of us demanded no increase.

[2:29:48] Voice 29: And of that 80%, 49% demanded that the Islands Trust budget shrink.

[2:29:55] Voice 29: That's right. Half of the residents of the Islands Trust.

[2:30:00] Voice 29: demanded that the Islands Trust shrink itself.

[2:30:03] Voice 29: What happened?

[2:30:04] Voice 29: Well, it grew by double digits,

[2:30:06] Voice 29: just as next year's budget is projected to do.

[2:30:10] Voice 29: Why?

[2:30:11] Voice 29: Because the authors of your budget stand to gain the most.

[2:30:15] Voice 29: Almost a year ago, a now ex-trustee publicly smeared

[2:30:20] Voice 29: the local newspaper that I edit and publish

[2:30:22] Voice 29: by claiming it had misinformation in it.

[2:30:26] Voice 29: I challenged him at the next LTC meeting,

[2:30:28] Voice 29: meeting, chaired by the same chair as tonight's meeting.

[2:30:32] Voice 29: Chair Luckham, who I will now henceforth refer to

[2:30:35] Voice 29: as Coward Luckham and explain in a moment,

[2:30:38] Voice 29: interceded and with a hard copy in hand.

[2:30:43] Voice 9: Point of order.

[2:30:44] Voice 29: Dave.

[2:30:45] Voice 29: Can

[2:30:45] Voice 9: the language be adjusted to be less disparaging please?

[2:30:49] Voice 9: And if you could address your remarks to trust council,

[2:30:53] Voice 9: we're the ones that direct the organization

[2:30:56] Voice 9: and uh can we have some respect as you're asking respect uh for yourself thank you

[2:31:02] Voice 9: thank

[2:31:04] Voice 18: you to ellen fastborn so dave please um use more appropriate language he claimed

[2:31:12] Voice 29: i will continue he claimed that the info in the four-page insert by the southern gulf islands

[2:31:18] Voice 29: residents association was indeed misinformation when challenged he condescendingly refused to

[2:31:25] Voice 29: identify what exactly was wrong but repeatedly stated that the correct info was on the islands

[2:31:31] Voice 29: trust website lo and behold the info on the islands trust website matched exactly what was

[2:31:38] Voice 29: printed in the newspaper soon after the chair changed committees and has not returned to

[2:31:46] Voice 29: liskiti he made this change with only three meetings left in the term yes you can run but

[2:31:54] Voice 29: but you cannot hide.

[2:31:56] Voice 29: The point of this presentation, however, is to earn-

[2:31:59] Voice 18: You've expended past your two minutes

[2:32:03] Voice 18: and I'm going to go to the next speaker,

[2:32:07] Voice 18: if the council doesn't have a trouble with that.

[2:32:10] Voice 18: Thank you.

[2:32:12] Voice 18: The next speaker in the room, sir, over to you.

[2:32:15] Voice 18: You have two minutes.

[2:32:17] Voice 18: And please state your name for the record.

[2:32:25] Voice 19: My name is Ewout van Dissouk,

[2:32:28] Voice 19: and I'm from Gabriel Island.

[2:32:30] Voice 19: And I would like to amplify what you heard earlier from my co-Gabriolian who spoke earlier to the matter of aircraft noise.

[2:32:46] Voice 19: I wish I was equipped to really give you useful information, but unfortunately I'm not.

[2:32:52] Voice 19: All I know is that air traffic will increase for sure over Gabiola and likely over other parts of the trust area.

[2:33:06] Voice 19: And I wish that I were equipped to tell you more than that.

[2:33:12] Voice 19: that, in order to be able to do so, which I gladly do if the Council would encourage

[2:33:19] Voice 19: me to do so, in order to do so, ideally there should be more of an exchange with those who

[2:33:28] Voice 19: are planning and controlling aircraft traffic over the trust area.

[2:33:35] Voice 19: And so my request to the Council is to approach NAF Canada and open up the consultation process, either to the public at large or at least to the trust representative,

[2:33:52] Voice 19: so that in due course it is clear to all of you

[2:33:59] Voice 19: whether or not noise pollution

[2:34:01] Voice 19: or whatever other pollution goes with aircraft traffic

[2:34:05] Voice 19: should be a concern for the trust.

[2:34:13] Voice 18: Thank you very much for your presentation today.

[2:34:17] Voice 18: We're certainly interested in that topic.

[2:34:20] Voice 18: I'm going to now go back online here

[2:34:24] Voice 18: and i think i'm seeing jennifer margerson you have your two minutes please thank

[2:34:35] Voice 26: you very much

[2:34:36] Voice 26: um good evening all and i'm very sorry to add to your extremely long day i would just quickly like

[2:34:43] Voice 26: to invite you to read and consider my report in your agenda package about the trucking or

[2:34:49] Voice 26: importing of fresh water to the trust area contrary to the trust policy statement that says

[2:34:57] Voice 26: says islands in the trust area are to be self-sufficient in their supply of fresh water

[2:35:04] Voice 26: i'm sorry i was not able to update my previous delegation presentation on this same topic that

[2:35:10] Voice 26: i made in september 2022 in time for a delegation presentation to this council so i will just say

[2:35:17] Voice 26: that my intention with this updated report is to draw the attention of new and returning trustees

[2:35:24] Voice 26: to what seems to be an overlooked and growing practice on many of our islands and one that I believe is a strong indicator that all is not well with the availability and sustainability of our fresh water in the trust area.

[2:35:41] Voice 26: I believe that the importation of fresh water is a critical but inadequately measured or even recognized piece of information needed to make responsible land use decisions.

[2:35:52] Voice 26: The canary in the coal mine, perhaps, as you consider the implications of more development, more tourism, along with the third factor, climate change, specifically longer and more severe periods of drought for our freshwater resources.

[2:36:11] Voice 26: And I would just like to finish by inviting anyone who might be able to add any more information to my admittedly incomplete report on the importation of fresh water to the trust area to contact me if you would wish to do so.

[2:36:28] Voice 26: And I'm sure my email address, I could provide it now or it could be provided by a number of people there. So thank you very much for your attention.

[2:36:38] Voice 26: Thank

[2:36:40] Voice 18: you, Jennifer, for your presentation today and joining us here at Council.

[2:36:45] Voice 18: My next speaker now online looks like Alex.

[2:36:51] Voice 18: So please state your name and you have two minutes with us.

[2:36:57] Voice 18: Thank

[2:36:59] Voice 25: you, Peter.

[2:37:02] Voice 25: Chair Luckham and elected representatives for the opportunity to speak.

[2:37:07] Voice 25: over the past few years many environmental reports studies have been funded uh for example

[2:37:16] Voice 25: mapping of eelgrass kelp beds groundwater and the review of foreshore policies to mention only a few

[2:37:23] Voice 25: this year's budget requires more funding for studies heritage overlaid coastal douglas fur

[2:37:31] Voice 25: and groundwater recharge maps and so on i guess uh i i'm not quite sure who can answer this question

[2:37:39] Voice 25: but i'd like to put it out there anyway um i'd like to know if any of the studies conducted in

[2:37:44] Voice 25: the past years have resulted in bylaws or dpas to protect the natural environment the forest

[2:37:51] Voice 25: the groundwater recharge areas in the aquifers eelgrass etc um and that's my question if

[2:38:00] Voice 25: If anybody can answer it, I'd really appreciate some information.

[2:38:06] Voice 18: Thank you.

[2:38:07] Voice 18: I don't know that we're necessarily prepared at this instant in time

[2:38:11] Voice 18: to answer a technical question of that nature.

[2:38:14] Voice 18: I would suggest you send an email to your local trust committee

[2:38:19] Voice 18: and they can facilitate getting the answer to that question.

[2:38:24] Voice 18: It's late and I would want to be sure that I'm providing you

[2:38:29] Voice 18: with accurate information.

[2:38:30] Voice 25: I will do that. Thank you very much. And I'm sorry, everyone's so tired.

[2:38:35] Voice 18: Yeah, well, thank you very much for working with us to provide that answer for you.

[2:38:43] Voice 18: All right. So our last speaker on my list here is Mary Beth Rondeau.

[2:38:51] Voice 24: Hello there. I just wanted to say, listening to the delegations and discussions from trustees about validity of science, where do we go, how do we get that value-laden message?

[2:39:08] Voice 24: If you speak against what the Islands Trust is promoting for science, you don't care about the environment, there's that implication.

[2:39:19] Voice 24: There is a way forward that I've been looking at, the Green Bylaws toolkit and that whole effort that is taking place in the province of British Columbia.

[2:39:32] Voice 24: And there are municipalities, there are local governments that are using valid science, you know, have consensus with their community in a regular democratic way, and they are ahead of the Islands Trust area for environmental protection.

[2:39:53] Voice 24: protection so uh i would just i'm just going to suggest that um one is the village of cumberland

[2:40:00] Voice 24: just up the island another one is whistler these were both discussed earlier um there is a way out

[2:40:06] Voice 24: of this there is a way to follow valid science um and follow solid planning practices and utilize

[2:40:15] Voice 24: you know the first step in a environmental development permit area is mapping and the

[2:40:20] Voice 24: The regional districts do it for these tiny jurisdictions.

[2:40:23] Voice 24: They certainly can't afford to do it themselves.

[2:40:25] Voice 24: They utilize the upper governments, and they engage their communities

[2:40:29] Voice 24: so they get complete buy-in in a democratic way.

[2:40:33] Voice 24: Thank you, and good night.

[2:40:37] Voice 18: Thank you very much, and good night to you as well.

[2:40:40] Voice 18: Okay, Council, I think that concludes our speaker's list for tonight.

[2:40:45] Voice 18: So I'm going to – oh, Jamie Harris.

[2:40:50] Voice 16: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[2:40:51] Voice 16: I'll keep this short and simple and hope everybody doesn't hate me.

[2:40:56] Voice 16: I can maybe meet you at the bar later.

[2:40:58] Voice 16: Anyway, I move, trust counsel.

[2:41:02] Voice 16: So, Jamie, can

[2:41:04] Voice 18: we save this for tomorrow?

[2:41:05] Voice 18: No.

[2:41:07] Voice 16: Maybe we can refer.

[2:41:08] Voice 16: I can just hear it.

[2:41:09] Voice 16: It's real simple, and please humor me.

[2:41:11] Voice 16: I move, trust counsel, move the disposition of David Dunnison's delegation to 9 a.m. Wednesday, March 8, 2023,

[2:41:20] Voice 16: 2023 and that it be in camera due to the risk of possibly large legal ramifications appearing

[2:41:28] Voice 16: glaringly clear so

[2:41:30] Voice 18: before somebody seconds that we have an in-camera session scheduled for thursday

[2:41:34] Voice 18: morning i would recommend you bring that up on the in-camera agenda as a new business item i'm i'm

[2:41:41] Voice 16: worried that sorry through mr chair i'm worried that the agenda as it stands has things that will

[2:41:48] Voice 16: be affected by the disposition by the disposition of this delegation such as the budget strategic

[2:41:54] Voice 16: plan project budget requests um balanced trust conservancy board budget requests

[2:42:00] Voice 16: i think could be clearly related to this so

[2:42:05] Voice 18: i think you're putting myself and council

[2:42:08] Voice 18: in a difficult position i understand

[2:42:10] Voice 16: it's it's very and

[2:42:12] Voice 18: you're serious i know this is serious

[2:42:14] Voice 18: to you. And I want to give you that opportunity to have that consideration. However, we adopted

[2:42:19] Voice 18: the agenda earlier today. And I think quite possibly you might have had the notion of us

[2:42:27] Voice 18: having this conversation at that point in time, which would have been the time to have a new

[2:42:31] Voice 18: business item added. And that would be fine. Except I would, however, also request the same

[2:42:39] Voice 18: I just have, that when we open the in-camera meeting tomorrow, that there will be an opportunity

[2:42:45] Voice 18: to add new business items to that agenda, and that would be the time to do it.

[2:42:50] Voice 18: And so I'm going to ask you to, I don't know the implications of what you're suggesting.

[2:42:57] Voice 18: Well, I'm going to ask you to do that.

[2:42:58] Voice 18: I'm going to ask the director of our legislative services director what his advice would be

[2:43:04] Voice 18: on this particular topic.

[2:43:10] Voice 18: Let's just see what he has to say, and then we'll come back.

[2:43:12] Voice 2: Yeah, so to go in-camera, you have to state the reasons to go in-camera before you go in-camera.

[2:43:17] Voice 18: Right.

[2:43:18] Voice 2: So if you have a new item in-camera, it has to fit within what you've closed the meeting for.

[2:43:24] Voice 2: So before we close the meeting, we'll need to know the reasons for going in-camera for this item.

[2:43:30] Voice 2: Right,

[2:43:31] Voice 18: so then I would suggest then that, Jamie, you speak with the Director of Legislative Services to determine the criteria to have that in-camera, and we can do that.

[2:43:40] Voice 18: But I just want to say one more thing, and I'll come back to you, is we have a full agenda tomorrow with budget, which we have to adopt by the end of this session, and also by law enforcement session.

[2:43:52] Voice 18: And we have some guests coming in. It's going to be difficult to accommodate an in-camera session in any other way. Go ahead.

[2:44:00] Voice 18: Thank you,

[2:44:01] Voice 16: Mr. Chair. I realize that, and this is why I think this is very important that we deal with this before we do any of that other stuff.

[2:44:09] Voice 16: stuff because clearly it is affected by the claims that david dunnison has made and also the legal

[2:44:19] Voice 16: possible risk of legal action taken against the trust which i had heard um you know rumblings of

[2:44:27] Voice 16: unsulturing i think it would be very i don't know what the proper word is advantageous possibly that

[2:44:35] Voice 16: that we do it as soon as possible.

[2:44:37] Voice 18: Okay, understood.

[2:44:38] Voice 18: So therefore I'm going to ask you before tomorrow morning

[2:44:43] Voice 18: to have a conversation with the legislative service manager

[2:44:45] Voice 18: about whatever it is you're talking about.

[2:44:48] Voice 18: And I think that this conversation

[2:44:50] Voice 18: about amending the agenda and having that conversation

[2:44:53] Voice 18: needs to be held in a portion of the meeting

[2:44:55] Voice 18: during the day when we're expecting to conduct business.

[2:45:00] Voice 18: I don't know that there are a lot of people

[2:45:01] Voice 18: people paying attention after the our town hall session here yeah

[2:45:05] Voice 16: i understand that i was hoping

[2:45:07] Voice 16: some people would um would clearly see the implications there but um so so are you saying

[2:45:13] Voice 16: that we could move that disposition tomorrow to the in-camera portion of the meeting no the

[2:45:20] Voice 18: in-camera portion is thursday morning and i'm going to recommend that you bring that up at that

[2:45:29] Voice 18: time and then you can make a motion and we can get a second to have it added to the agenda and

[2:45:35] Voice 18: then we can have a discussion about it

[2:45:36] Voice 16: well if there's no support for what i'm suggesting then

[2:45:38] Voice 16: that's the way it is but again i feel that there's um the things that we're going to be deciding on

[2:45:45] Voice 16: tomorrow i have relationship have a clear relationship to sure

[2:45:52] Voice 18: so if it's budgetary

[2:45:53] Voice 18: is what you're talking about yes and

[2:45:55] Voice 18: also the legal then the budget will not be adopted until

[2:45:58] until Thursday.

[2:46:00] Voice 18: There'll be conversations tomorrow about the budget

[2:46:02] Voice 18: and amendments to the budget as necessary.

[2:46:05] Voice 18: So I'm going to look to council.

[2:46:07] Voice 18: Am I being unreasonable?

[2:46:08] Voice 18: I think that it's late in the day.

[2:46:11] Voice 18: I don't, yeah.

[2:46:17] Voice 4: I have a suggestion here.

[2:46:19] Voice 4: Thank you, sir.

[2:46:19] Voice 4: In order to move this thing forward,

[2:46:23] Voice 4: what I'm hearing Trustee Harris say,

[2:46:25] Voice 4: he's got some concerns about that presentation.

[2:46:29] Voice 4: limitation he thinks it has ramifications for the budget the legal issue whatever it is can wait i'm

[2:46:37] Voice 4: sure till thursday nothing's going to happen between now and then the budget thing as you

[2:46:41] Voice 4: pointed out won't be decided until thursday however uh it's still open to trustee harris

[2:46:47] Voice 4: and anybody else who cares about it tomorrow as we go through the budget if there are specific

[2:46:51] Voice 4: things in the budget that trustee harris is concerned about they may be identified at that

[2:46:58] Voice 4: that time we can flag them and just we don't have to get into the discussion about how

[2:47:05] Voice 4: Mr. Dunison's presentation relates to it but that could be an opportunity for Trustee Harris to

[2:47:13] Voice 4: identify those issues and then we can discuss them on Thursday morning right that's just a

[2:47:20] Voice 4: suggestion and

[2:47:21] Voice 18: well that's good and and so indeed during the financial budget debate you could speak

[2:47:26] Voice 18: to the issues but not about individuals and and then you can carry the day so is that satisfactory

[2:47:32] Voice 18: to council i'd like to recess uh judy getty did you have some your hand up sorry i think bringing

[2:47:41] Voice 3: up a motion at the um something that uh is adding to an agenda that after a very long day and we're

[2:47:47] Voice 3: half an hour over a lot of time is governance by ambush and i don't think that that's fair to any

[2:47:54] Voice 3: of us so if you've got something to say then pick a time to say it that's more appropriate

[2:47:59] Voice 3: so that we can all actually listen and pay attention yeah

[2:48:03] Voice 16: okay i'm sorry mr chair yes

[2:48:07] Voice 16: thank you judy i thought it was very important honestly and and again i apologize at the

[2:48:12] Voice 16: beginning of what i was saying i'm tired too but i think that this is um clearly very very

[2:48:17] Voice 16: important and i think we as a trust council need to give it the the respect that that is due

[2:48:24] Voice 16: for the community members and taxpayers and on and on.

[2:48:28] Voice 16: Yes.

[2:48:29] Voice 18: Thank you. Thank you, Jamie.

[2:48:31] Voice 18: So I'm going to call for recess until tomorrow morning and just don't rush

[2:48:34] Voice 18: away just yet. Cause I have a little announcement I'd like to make,

[2:48:37] Voice 18: but I also want to provide the opportunity for Lori to give us anything on

[2:48:41] Voice 18: logistics for, for tomorrow morning breakfast or otherwise.

[2:48:47] Voice 8: Thanks trust council. Your accommodations at the quality in,

[2:48:51] Voice 8: and breakfast is here tomorrow starting at 8 a.m and our meeting starts at nine breakfast is in the

[2:48:58] Voice 8: same room with the

[2:48:58] Voice 18: where the dinners were served perfect thank you so uh with regarding regards to

[2:49:04] Voice 18: uh grant scott's uh herring video 10 minute presentation we're going when we recess tomorrow

[2:49:10] Voice 18: at ideally 5 30 we're going to provide 10 minutes after the council to uh to for those that want to

[2:49:17] Voice 18: watch the video that he's brought with us. And then we'll dinner will proceed, I think at six

[2:49:22] Voice 18: o'clock dinner scheduled for. So thanks, everybody for the day. And we'll see you all tomorrow morning.