Islands Trust Council special meeting, January 20, 2025

[0:00:03] Voice 8: And Chair Patrick, we're recording and live streaming.

[0:00:08] Trustee Patrick: Excellent. Thank you very much.

[0:00:10] Trustee Patrick: Well, good morning.

[0:00:12] Trustee Patrick: I'd like to call this special meeting of the Regional Planning Committee to order.

[0:00:17] Trustee Patrick: Late last week, the community on Penelope Island suffered a tragic event with a fire at a multifamily housing complex.

[0:00:25] Trustee Patrick: Fortunately, residents safely were evacuated and are sheltered.

[0:00:28] Trustee Patrick: And our hearts and thoughts go out to the community.

[0:00:31] Trustee Patrick: As we continue our path on reconciliation, we need to learn how to work with Indigenous-governed bodies.

[0:00:40] Trustee Patrick: For example, the Salt Spring Fire Department has been holding joint exercises with the Penelope tribes.

[0:00:49] Trustee Patrick: How do we do that? How does this agency find opportunities to do joint activities?

[0:00:55] Trustee Patrick: activities. One possibility is when the time is right to perhaps participate with

[0:01:01] Trustee Patrick: Penelope tribes to debrief the recent fire. Are there lessons to be learned to assist in

[0:01:06] Trustee Patrick: land use planning? I know you're probably saying, why would fire have anything to do

[0:01:12] Trustee Patrick: with land use planning? Well, we zone the types of buildings and structures that are

[0:01:16] Trustee Patrick: built on our islands. And if there's lessons to be learned that can help us do better planning

[0:01:21] Trustee Patrick: in the future, that would be useful. So I'm just planting seeds for thoughts.

[0:01:28] Trustee Patrick: Okay, so we have an agenda before us. Before we approve the agenda, I just wanted to remind you,

[0:01:35] Trustee Patrick: I did send out an email to prepare for today's meeting, and I asked you to pay special attention

[0:01:40] Trustee Patrick: to dissenting voices. You probably go, why? Well, it's important. We are a small group of a big body

[0:01:47] Trustee Patrick: of 26. So if one of us has a thought or an issue, we should dive into that and understand it and do

[0:01:53] Trustee Patrick: our best so that we try to move on. Doesn't mean we have to have consensus, but we do need to take

[0:01:59] Trustee Patrick: time to understand what any concerns are, especially on this very important topic of

[0:02:04] Trustee Patrick: bylaw enforcement. So we do have an agenda before us. Are there any changes or additions to the

[0:02:12] Trustee Patrick: the agenda and i see a hand raised by trustee elliott thank

[0:02:17] Voice 11: you chair um could we add a brief

[0:02:19] Voice 11: discussion on the minutes of the september 4th rpc meeting uh minutes in resolution there's some

[0:02:27] Voice 11: uh lack of clarity and i think we just need to um have a brief discussion if we could after our

[0:02:35] Voice 11: business if that's all right

[0:02:38] Trustee Patrick: okay so you wanted to have that

[0:02:40] Trustee Patrick: at the just at the end so 4.1.6 sure thank you discussion on minutes of september 4th

[0:02:55] Trustee Patrick: all right before we get going i guess i should introduce who is here today

[0:03:01] Trustee Patrick: we have a number of trustees that are joining us we have uh trustee

[0:03:05] Trustee Patrick: we have uh trustee borthwick trustee campbell trustee elliot trustee graham

[0:03:14] Trustee Patrick: and staff joining us today we have rob in the background who is helping manage our meeting

[0:03:20] Trustee Patrick: and take minutes thank you very much rob for your work we have a planning a regional planning

[0:03:28] Trustee Patrick: manager robert kojima who will be working with us today we have uh our director our manager of

[0:03:35] Trustee Patrick: bylaw enforcement warren digman and we have the director of planning um stephan sermac am i

[0:03:41] Trustee Patrick: I'm missing anybody else that's on our meeting today.

[0:03:46] Trustee Patrick: All right, with that.

[0:03:48] Trustee Patrick: We

[0:03:48] Voice 2: do have ex officio, trustee Luckham as well.

[0:03:53] Voice 2: Thank you.

[0:03:54] Trustee Patrick: And I apologize, Peter, for not recognizing you.

[0:03:59] Trustee Patrick: You're right in the center of my screen too.

[0:04:03] Trustee Patrick: Okay, thank you.

[0:04:04] Trustee Patrick: And please, as you all go on,

[0:04:07] Trustee Patrick: it is hard to do these virtual meetings

[0:04:09] Trustee Patrick: with having lists and things and multiple screens.

[0:04:11] Trustee Patrick: So all of you please speak up because I'm doing my best

[0:04:15] Trustee Patrick: and I do make mistakes.

[0:04:18] Trustee Patrick: Okay, so we're going to start our agenda off

[0:04:22] Trustee Patrick: by turning it over to staff

[0:04:23] Trustee Patrick: to talk about the material we have before us.

[0:04:25] Trustee Patrick: So over to you.

[0:04:29] Voice 7: Thank you, Chair.

[0:04:31] Voice 7: I'm just going to briefly summarize the RFD

[0:04:33] Voice 7: and then turn it back over to RPC.

[0:04:36] Voice 7: PC. So the purpose of the RFD is to bring the bylaw enforcement manual back to our PC to review

[0:04:45] Voice 7: and also to provide our PC with a revised version of trust council policy 5.5.1 for direction.

[0:04:56] Voice 7: Just as a reminder, the overall objectives of the project are to implement the recommendations of

[0:05:03] Voice 7: the report from the Office of the Ombudsman and then added to the project charter was to develop

[0:05:09] Voice 7: a an LTC bylaw enforcement policy template. The RFD provides some legislative context,

[0:05:18] Voice 7: basically reminds everyone that the Islands Trust Act establishes that LTCs can enforce their bylaws

[0:05:26] Voice 7: and that enforcement must be authorized by LTC bylaw. The legislation also establishes

[0:05:32] Voice 7: the bylaw staff are authorized to enter property and inspect at, quote, all reasonable times,

[0:05:38] Voice 7: unquote. Trust Council Policy 5.5.1 provides direction to staff on enforcement processes

[0:05:47] Voice 7: and procedures, and many LTCs have adopted specific policies directing how LTC bylaws

[0:05:56] Voice 7: are to be enforced through standing resolutions.

[0:06:01] Voice 7: RPC has requested staff to create a plain language version

[0:06:05] Voice 7: of the existing best practices manual.

[0:06:08] Voice 7: So the manual was revised from a staff,

[0:06:11] Voice 7: what was originally a staff procedures document

[0:06:14] Voice 7: to more of a public communications document.

[0:06:17] Voice 7: And the changes that have been made to the manual to date

[0:06:22] Voice 7: are summarized in the RPC, or in the RFD.

[0:06:25] Voice 7: staff are suggesting the changes made to draft

[0:06:29] Voice 7: Trust Council Policy 5.5.1

[0:06:33] Voice 7: be reviewed by RPC prior to finalizing

[0:06:38] Voice 7: the manual as the policy forms the foundation

[0:06:41] Voice 7: that the manual draws from in terms of procedures

[0:06:46] Voice 7: Policy 5.5.1 which is attached to the

[0:06:50] Voice 7: agenda has been revised to try and

[0:06:54] Voice 7: to implement all the recommendations and suggestions of the ombudsperson's report.

[0:06:58] Voice 7: So some of the changes to the policy include adding guiding principles,

[0:07:04] Voice 7: adding roles and responsibilities, adding definitions.

[0:07:09] Voice 7: There's new and revised or expanded procedures for commencing investigations,

[0:07:16] Voice 7: progressive enforcement, notification, site inspections, and closing investigations.

[0:07:22] Voice 7: Also included are some policies on staff discretion or expansion of policies on staff discretion.

[0:07:30] Voice 7: A section on review of staff conduct complaints, how those will be handled.

[0:07:36] Voice 7: A section on handling of frivolous and vexatious complaints.

[0:07:42] Voice 7: There's a table tracking the recommendations and where they've been incorporated into the documents that's attached to the RFD.

[0:07:51] Voice 7: and then next steps would be our pc providing direction on further changes to both the manual

[0:07:58] Voice 7: and policy 5.5.1 and then presumably at a future meeting our pc providing direction

[0:08:05] Voice 7: on any further revisions to the ltc policy template once our pc satisfied we would refer

[0:08:15] Voice 7: for the documents back to the ombudsperson's office

[0:08:18] Voice 7: for review, potentially a legal review

[0:08:22] Voice 7: and trust council endorsements,

[0:08:26] Voice 7: and then finally implementations of the changes.

[0:08:29] Voice 7: So thank you, chair.

[0:08:32] Trustee Patrick: All right, thank you very much for that highlight.

[0:08:38] Trustee Patrick: As I was prepping, I can't even speak today for this.

[0:08:43] Trustee Patrick: I think where we kind of ended last time

[0:08:46] Trustee Patrick: we had a conversation on like the bylaw manual was the flow chart that is shown on page eight

[0:08:54] Trustee Patrick: i think that's a good tool at least for me i like pictures i like flow charts to follow through

[0:09:00] Trustee Patrick: i don't know how you feel as we look at to do we understand the process um and as we look at the

[0:09:08] Trustee Patrick: policy and the manual to see how each of these elements are sort of addressed um that's what

[0:09:15] Trustee Patrick: it makes sense to sort of me. Is there an alternative or something that someone has

[0:09:20] Trustee Patrick: thought of in prepping and going through this conversation that would be better than

[0:09:24] Trustee Patrick: using this as our flowchart of discussion? Oops, I see. Trustee Graham.

[0:09:35] Voice 3: Thank you, Chair. No, I like flowcharts too. Reminds me of my early days with computer science.

[0:09:42] Voice 3: But why not put it in the table of contents and just call it steps to compliance? So

[0:09:47] Voice 3: So that would just add one more thing to the table of contents.

[0:09:50] Voice 3: That's my only suggestion.

[0:09:54] Trustee Patrick: So that you – oh, is this because it's not in the table of contents of the document?

[0:10:02] Trustee Patrick: Sorry.

[0:10:03] Trustee Patrick: Go ahead, Trustee Graham.

[0:10:04] Voice 3: The flowchart is not in the table of contents.

[0:10:07] Voice 3: I am right.

[0:10:10] Trustee Patrick: Good catch.

[0:10:14] Trustee Patrick: So something to look at.

[0:10:16] Trustee Patrick: but um so all right if we use that as our process then um the the first box that is in this is uh

[0:10:25] Trustee Patrick: islands trust receives a bylaw complaint so if we look at the documents kind of in front of us

[0:10:32] Trustee Patrick: the policy deals with um um for me the policy starts with going right into commencing investigations

[0:10:42] Trustee Patrick: investigations is sort of step one in the policy but in the manual it does talk through receiving

[0:10:48] Trustee Patrick: a complaint so does anyone have any discussion or questions on the receiving a complaint aspects

[0:10:57] Trustee Patrick: we are a quiet group this morning i also think because all of us in our islands do and have heard

[0:11:10] Trustee Patrick: from residents so I think is you need to put your kind of wear multiple hats and

[0:11:17] Trustee Patrick: looking at these documents before us one is either our hat as a trustee but the

[0:11:21] Trustee Patrick: others try to think of ourselves as a as the person who is either making the

[0:11:26] Trustee Patrick: complaint or the person who is being the receiver of a complaint in our community

[0:11:31] Trustee Patrick: so we should kind of have those thoughts in our minds as we look at this material

[0:11:35] Trustee Patrick: Ariel, go ahead.

[0:11:44] Voice 5: Trustee Boland, did you have something to say?

[0:11:47] Voice 5: Oh, sorry.

[0:11:48] Voice 5: I'm kind of talking to myself.

[0:11:49] Voice 5: I'm trying to, I have so many kind of comments,

[0:11:52] Voice 5: but they're scattered throughout it.

[0:11:54] Voice 5: And I'm trying to organize my thoughts

[0:11:55] Voice 5: so that I don't jump three paragraphs ahead

[0:11:58] Voice 5: and I'm called back to where we are.

[0:12:02] Voice 5: So we're going to go through each section

[0:12:05] Voice 5: and I'm looking at my equivalent document.

[0:12:10] Voice 5: I'm not going to say for the moment.

[0:12:11] Voice 5: Okay.

[0:12:12] Voice 5: Well,

[0:12:12] Trustee Patrick: I'm starting to think of our comments regarding just how the Annals Trust receives a complaint.

[0:12:17] Trustee Patrick: Or I think if you think of what's not in this thing is sort of the, if you were the complainant, how do you know what to do to make a complaint as well is what I would include in this category.

[0:12:30] Trustee Patrick: Where do I make it?

[0:12:32] Trustee Patrick: How do I make it?

[0:12:33] Trustee Patrick: What do I make it on?

[0:12:34] Trustee Patrick: Where do I direct the complaint?

[0:12:36] Trustee Patrick: Go ahead, Trustee Elliott.

[0:12:37] Trustee Patrick: Elliot? I'm,

[0:12:40] Voice 11: I'm really pausing because this way of working through the document is confusing for

[0:12:46] Voice 11: me. To me, the core document is the policy, policy 5.5.1. And if we get that right, then the manual,

[0:12:56] Voice 11: which is front facing to the public, should be coherent with that. And so I do think I'm going

[0:13:06] Voice 11: going to get lost if we try to work through the manual and then go back to the core policy

[0:13:10] Voice 11: um i would prefer personally just for the way my brain works is to work through policy 5.5.1

[0:13:18] Voice 11: and then make sure the manual is congruent with that um

[0:13:23] Trustee Patrick: i i concur with you and that's why i was

[0:13:26] Trustee Patrick: sort of pointing to this table because i find the policy doesn't align with that um as we go through

[0:13:31] Trustee Patrick: room so um i think it is important to think start with the policy then okay but i'd say keep this

[0:13:39] Trustee Patrick: flow chart in mind as we go through the policy because it is sort of the progression is the

[0:13:44] Trustee Patrick: policy set up that way as well yeah

[0:13:47] Voice 11: and so i do see that there is description of how complaints

[0:13:51] Voice 11: are received in the policy so that's why i was scanning it's under two commencing investigations

[0:13:58] Voice 11: investigations um uh oh sorry in three so that's why i feel like we'll be jumping around if we

[0:14:06] Voice 11: start with the flow chart uh yeah three point no it's not in three sorry two point uh two point

[0:14:20] Voice 12: two

[0:14:20] Voice 11: points yeah right so yeah all right so

[0:14:25] Voice 11: i'd like to start right at the top of the document

[0:14:27] Voice 11: and work through it that way.

[0:14:29] Voice 11: I don't know what everyone else thinks,

[0:14:31] Voice 11: but that's my preference.

[0:14:33] Trustee Patrick: Is that good?

[0:14:34] Trustee Patrick: The group wants to start with the policy?

[0:14:39] Trustee Patrick: All right.

[0:14:40] Trustee Patrick: But I am asking you to keep that flowchart in mind

[0:14:42] Trustee Patrick: as we go through the policy

[0:14:43] Trustee Patrick: because I think it does help us look for the pieces

[0:14:45] Trustee Patrick: that are there or not there

[0:14:47] Trustee Patrick: or could be better organized.

[0:14:49] Trustee Patrick: Okay, Trustee Boland.

[0:14:53] Voice 5: Okay, I've gathered my thoughts.

[0:14:55] Voice 5: They were gathered and then they got scattered.

[0:14:57] Voice 5: So I've regathered my thoughts.

[0:14:59] Voice 5: I agree with Trustee Elliott

[0:15:01] Voice 5: it when I read everything and I read everything I really read things before the December meeting

[0:15:07] Voice 5: and I was quite dismayed then at the order in which things were being done this to me and what

[0:15:15] Voice 5: I read in this agenda is much more coherent and a much better and more organized approach and

[0:15:25] Voice 5: And indeed, the policy is the key. The best practices to me is a kind of a plain English description of the policy.

[0:15:33] Voice 5: And we have to get the policy right and then align the best practices with it carefully.

[0:15:41] Voice 5: So, you know, I had noted a lot of things like, you know, the order of certain things was not aligned from one document to the other,

[0:15:50] Voice 5: like the order of you know other things that might you know generate a complaint and things

[0:15:58] Voice 5: like language i like the use of contravention or something other than violation and a lot of

[0:16:05] Voice 5: places it's changed and then it pops up again but in general i thought the um the alignment

[0:16:13] Voice 5: of the policy with the ombudsman's recommendations and in particular in the log where it says you

[0:16:21] Voice 5: you know, to be expanded upon. I saw that as really a very methodical tracking through

[0:16:28] Voice 5: the work that needed to be done. And then we do the best practices, which is an explanation

[0:16:34] Voice 5: of that in plain English. So I agree with Trustee Elliot, I'd like to work through the policy

[0:16:40] Voice 5: and the improved version, which is really a great step up on what was there. So thank you.

[0:16:46] Voice 5: you. Okay. Trustee Graham.

[0:16:50] Voice 3: Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I don't mind which we look at first.

[0:16:54] Voice 3: The only thing I'll add to the conversation is the manual best practices is aimed at constituents

[0:17:02] Voice 3: who may find themselves wanting to make a complaint or having received that first letter.

[0:17:10] Voice 3: So it may not follow the flow of the policy, but it perhaps is aimed at the constituent

[0:17:23] Voice 3: who barely understands the role of the trust to start with and really is just in this wondering

[0:17:29] Voice 3: what the heck they should do.

[0:17:31] Voice 3: So that's the hat I put on when I looked at that best practices manual.

[0:17:34] Voice 3: When I look at a policy, that's a totally different audience from my perspective.

[0:17:39] Voice 3: And of course, so I just want to just, that's just where my head is at. Okay, thanks.

[0:17:44] Trustee Patrick: Thank you, Trustee Graham. But the ombudsman report was pretty clear in saying that the policy needs to be written in a way that's understood as well. So they didn't separate them out in their comments in the ombudsman report. It's clear that the policy itself needs to be well understood and easy to follow.

[0:18:04] Trustee Patrick: So it is not just an inside document. It is something that would be looked at by external eyes.

[0:18:12] Trustee Patrick: OK, Trustee Elliott.

[0:18:15] Voice 11: OK, so thank you for that. Working through the document from the top, when I look at purpose, I want to ask, does this state, the Islands Trust's legal authority for enforcing bylaws?

[0:18:28] Voice 11: and so going back to the ombudsperson's report they did state and I know it's in

[0:18:35] Voice 11: the in the front-facing manual but it says it's important to set up the legal

[0:18:40] Voice 11: authority that the island's trust has to enter a property in order to inspect the

[0:18:43] Voice 11: property the publicly available policy should also set out what process will be

[0:18:48] Voice 11: followed to enter property so do we need to have our legal authority up there is

[0:18:54] Voice 11: Is that sufficient with the wording to support the object of the Island's

[0:18:58] Voice 11: trust?

[0:19:00] Voice 11: And then I have one more comment on this page.

[0:19:03] Trustee Patrick: So that sounds like staff question.

[0:19:04] Trustee Patrick: And I see staff have raised their hand.

[0:19:07] Trustee Patrick: Director Cermak.

[0:19:09] Voice 4: Thank you.

[0:19:11] Voice 4: Chair.

[0:19:12] Voice 4: The section D of the policy provides a link of the supporting documents,

[0:19:17] Voice 4: related policies and procedures, et cetera.

[0:19:20] Voice 4: And for that, you know,

[0:19:21] Voice 4: linked to the BC Local Government Bylaws Enforcement Act.

[0:19:27] Voice 4: And so we haven't stated it, that section XYZ of, you know,

[0:19:32] Voice 4: Act so-and-so is what gives us the authority like we do in a bylaw,

[0:19:36] Voice 4: because that's what bylaws are for.

[0:19:38] Voice 4: But procedurally, we've linked them back here as a supporting document

[0:19:42] Voice 4: indicating where we get the authority from.

[0:19:44] Voice 4: So it's just a different way of writing.

[0:19:46] Voice 4: Like policies generally, we refer to the act that gives us the authority,

[0:19:50] Voice 4: but we don't quote it.

[0:19:51] Voice 4: whereas in a bylaw we quote it so just a difference of of how we do things but i'm

[0:19:56] Voice 4: happy to take your guidance if you'd like just thought i went that's where it is

[0:20:02] Voice 11: that's great

[0:20:05] Voice 11: uh i'm satisfied with that so my second point on that page sorry it is hard to flip between

[0:20:12] Voice 11: documents a lot um so looking at the guiding principles um i wanted to see if two transparency

[0:20:23] Voice 11: and communication is um so the language there provide clear accessible information about

[0:20:33] Voice 11: enforcement policies processes and outcomes to foster trust and understanding the recommendation

[0:20:39] Voice 11: i believe from the report said something like having understandable and meaningful reasons

[0:20:47] Voice 11: for the decisions made throughout the bylaw investigation and there was a second point about

[0:20:53] Voice 11: about the respondent's opportunity to like have a voice throughout the process

[0:21:00] Voice 11: and I'm just going to look to see where that's included because I think yeah the opportunity

[0:21:09] Voice 11: to be heard so page nine of the unfortunately it's trust council agenda when the ombudsperson's

[0:21:20] Voice 11: report was presented. So the opportunity to be heard is an important aspect of administrative

[0:21:25] Voice 11: fairness, notifying the person, and that they have a chance to respond throughout the process

[0:21:32] Voice 11: and participate in the investigative process. So I just wanted to make sure that voice is captured

[0:21:39] Voice 11: um and the the understandable and meaningful reasons for the decisions might be some language

[0:21:53] Voice 11: we could look at but other than that i think these are excellent guiding principles so are

[0:21:59] Trustee Patrick: you suggesting we uh that an addition additional guiding principle that's clear on that because

[0:22:06] Trustee Patrick: that point would be useful just trying to get us to being specific about where where we see an

[0:22:18] Trustee Patrick: opportunity for improvement the

[0:22:21] Voice 11: well the fairness does say offer opportunities to be heard um i

[0:22:27] Voice 11: would say throughout the process um we could add that the understandable and meaningful reasons for

[0:22:38] Voice 11: the decision um i don't think it's an additional thing it's more about transparency understandable

[0:22:49] Voice 11: meaningful reasons clear accessible information about processes policies and outcomes

[0:22:58] Voice 11: yeah i would just add with understandable and meaningful reasons for the decisions made

[0:23:02] Voice 11: throughout the bylaw investigation that could be added to transparency and communication

[0:23:07] Voice 11: Do you want me to copy that in the chat?

[0:23:13] Voice 8: Please do, Trustee Elliott, if you can.

[0:23:18] Trustee Patrick: Okay, what we can do is capture these ideas.

[0:23:22] Trustee Patrick: I see Stephan has his hand raised.

[0:23:24] Trustee Patrick: Maybe he can add on this one.

[0:23:28] Voice 4: Thank you, Chair.

[0:23:30] Voice 4: You know, we've struggled with resolutions back and forth from committees these days.

[0:23:34] Voice 4: So I would recommend that comes in a resolution to please make the following amendment to, you know,

[0:23:40] Voice 4: guiding principle number two to include the following words just um i don't want to lose

[0:23:45] Voice 4: anything and oh

[0:23:46] Trustee Patrick: i know i agree i was thinking if we could just track it for now if rob if you could

[0:23:50] Trustee Patrick: just start a tracking and we'll be clear on the language right now and then we can go back and

[0:23:54] Trustee Patrick: because as we go through we may find we nullify some of our conversations as we go forward

[0:23:59] Trustee Patrick: so we could track them on a page and then we will act on each and every one of them as i agree

[0:24:05] Trustee Patrick: agree if that makes sense to everyone so let's make sure we have this clarity for rob um on this

[0:24:12] Trustee Patrick: one so rob do you have that one captured yes

[0:24:16] Voice 8: i do chair all

[0:24:17] Trustee Patrick: right all right i see uh trusty

[0:24:21] Trustee Patrick: boland's hand uh

[0:24:25] Voice 5: yeah thanks i like all this um but in thought number nine focus on education

[0:24:32] Voice 5: and compliance i don't know if these are in the order of the ombudsman's you know recommendations

[0:24:37] Voice 5: but to me that's one of our kind of founding guiding principles which is to try and achieve

[0:24:45] Voice 5: compliance through education without enforcement inspection penalties notices etc so i think that

[0:24:54] Voice 5: should be number two or three to be honest and rather than the last one in the list of the

[0:25:02] Voice 5: guiding principles because i think it's very very important um and then the other thing i had was on

[0:25:10] Voice 5: the next page down well why

[0:25:13] Trustee Patrick: don't we finish the guiding principle one first if that makes sense

[0:25:17] Trustee Patrick: if we're in here by section before we

[0:25:19] Voice 5: get no you know i like to jump on it okay okay i'll wait

[0:25:27] Voice 5: anyway let's move number nine to number three

[0:25:32] Trustee Patrick: great are there any other questions on the

[0:25:37] Trustee Patrick: guiding principles i know i have one and oh i see oh go ahead trustee elliot yeah

[0:25:44] Voice 11: i i do so

[0:25:45] Voice 11: looking again at procedural fairness um i would just add after offer opportunities to be heard

[0:25:54] Voice 11: throughout the process full uh and then you can continue i just think there the the policy should

[0:26:03] Voice 11: state that there are it's not just one opportunity but that's

[0:26:09] Trustee Patrick: the that's the opening statement before

[0:26:11] Trustee Patrick: the guiding principles there is that no i mean is that what you're

[0:26:15] Voice 11: no no no um under three

[0:26:17] Voice 11: under three okay fairness ensure timely notification of alleged infractions

[0:26:22] Voice 11: offer opportunities it should be well who to respondents uh to be heard throughout the process

[0:26:30] Voice 11: and guarantee unbiased decision making making it

[0:26:37] Trustee Patrick: just offer opportunities to respondents

[0:26:40] Trustee Patrick: be heard throughout the process all right so people should uh if anyone hears as we do these

[0:26:50] Trustee Patrick: little wordsmithing that we're catching uh if anyone has alternatives please jump in then don't

[0:26:56] Trustee Patrick: wait so rob did you get that number three to add offer opportunities to respondents to be heard

[0:27:04] Trustee Patrick: and did you want throughout the process there as well okay to be heard throughout the process

[0:27:12] Trustee Patrick: did you get that one rob oh i see he has a table in front of us oh yes

[0:27:21] Voice 12: here we are

[0:27:21] Voice 12: all

[0:27:21] Trustee Patrick: right the only unguiding principles are sort of something that i found kind of missing

[0:27:38] Trustee Patrick: throughout was the basic assumption that our bylaws are really well written and understood

[0:27:45] Trustee Patrick: and just, you know, big stars. Because sometimes our bylaws themselves are problematic. And

[0:27:54] Trustee Patrick: do we carry on and drill in enforcement to someone? Or how do we raise the attention of

[0:28:06] Trustee Patrick: a bylaw that may need to be fixed and I see trustee Elliott's hand raised on that one

[0:28:16] Trustee Patrick: yeah

[0:28:18] Voice 11: so that's a point that I did want to raise because some of the other examples

[0:28:26] Voice 11: and I hadn't noted which regional district but they state right up front that not all violations

[0:28:34] Voice 11: recommendations will be investigated. It's the Columbia Shoe Swap Regional District,

[0:28:42] Voice 11: which is one of the examples that the best practices manual gave.

[0:28:48] Voice 11: Sorry, I'm just looking for the language there. Okay, the regional district has no duty to take

[0:28:56] Voice 11: enforcement action with respect to every contravention of every bylaw that may be

[0:29:01] Voice 11: occurring within its jurisdiction allowing discretion guided by this policy and so i think

[0:29:08] Voice 11: that was something that was missing to me because i mean i have heard from some complainants who are

[0:29:16] Voice 11: like well why aren't you enforcing this bylaw and that bylaw and and in you know in legal uh opinions

[0:29:23] Voice 11: coming back i can't remember where i've seen it but it's that it's it's unreasonable to expect

[0:29:28] Voice 11: any local government to to um um investigate and take enforcement action on every bylaw

[0:29:36] Voice 11: and we just we don't have that written anywhere so perhaps um i'll just put the wording in the

[0:29:44] Voice 11: chat and you can look at it okay

[0:29:50] Trustee Patrick: yeah i was thinking did it did we need like a guiding

[0:29:52] Trustee Patrick: principle on working toward clarity and coherent bylaws or something of that nature um

[0:29:59] Voice 11: You don't.

[0:30:00] Voice 11: I think that belongs here, though. This is a policy on enforcement and compliance, not the inadequacy of our bylaws. You know what I mean?

[0:30:09] Trustee Patrick: Yes, but to me, it's feedback loops. You know, this is one method in which we discover deficiencies or opportunities, if that makes sense.

[0:30:21] Voice 11: Yeah, that does make sense.

[0:30:22] Voice 11: It's

[0:30:22] Trustee Patrick: not the only one, but it is a byproduct to me of bylaw enforcement is, no, we should fix something because they're seeing it causing harm.

[0:30:32] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Graham.

[0:30:34] Voice 3: Yeah, thank you, Chair Patrick.

[0:30:38] Voice 3: You triggered a memory of mine when you said, you know, sometimes a bylaw is problematic.

[0:30:43] Voice 3: And a previous director of bylaw compliance and enforcement gave me some very good information.

[0:30:50] Voice 3: Advice when I was a trustee back in the day, he said, look, if at the local trust committee table, you may see a particular bylaw forever being triggered as a compliance and enforcement situation.

[0:31:04] Voice 3: You might want to look at your bylaw and see if it, in fact, harmonizes with the way your community is going through its business.

[0:31:11] Voice 3: Obviously, this is not an environmental bylaw.

[0:31:13] Voice 3: This is one of those problematic bylaws that trips up every now and then.

[0:31:16] Voice 3: So the decision as to whether a bylaw is adequately written, poorly written, or in fact just doesn't work anymore is a decision of the local trust committee.

[0:31:27] Voice 3: I don't think I would want to put it in a trust council policy directive.

[0:31:31] Voice 3: It's an individual LTA decision in my mind anyway.

[0:31:36] Trustee Patrick: No, I'm not disagreeing.

[0:31:38] Trustee Patrick: I just think how the data, I'm looking at more of the feedback loops.

[0:31:42] Trustee Patrick: You know, it's like we aren't directly on the day to day and we don't see how these always fall out. And so bylaw enforcement's the one that are on the ground having these conversations with someone. And I think it's just a possible outcome. But Trustee Elliott.

[0:31:58] Trustee Patrick: So

[0:31:59] Voice 11: would that go under accountability and oversight that Trust Council would, you know, endeavors to update and align its bylaws, you know, as a best practice?

[0:32:20] Voice 11: Like, what is the thing that you're looking for? Because I do agree there might be something there about accountability and aligning the bylaws with, or, yeah.

[0:32:35] Voice 11: yeah yeah

[0:32:36] Trustee Patrick: i think it's clarity and coherence are the words of the of the bylaws so would that make

[0:32:44] Trustee Patrick: sense to others if under accountability and oversight regularly review enforcement activities

[0:32:51] Trustee Patrick: and maintain oversight to uphold public confidence and yeah and either either strive for care

[0:33:00] Trustee Patrick: or identify opportunities to make bylaws more clear and coherent trustee boland you have ideas

[0:33:11] Voice 5: Yeah, I think this is a good point to raise in general.

[0:33:14] Voice 5: Later on, I brought up the fact that there's I think there are in several places options where discretion is applied.

[0:33:23] Voice 5: You know, the local trust committee can either raise a complaint or can actually close a file.

[0:33:31] Voice 5: And in 514, it says if the director of planning services concurs with the manager.

[0:33:37] Voice 5: measure and I think the director of planning services is the screening officer and maybe that

[0:33:42] Voice 5: should be used rather than the director of planning services perhaps I'm not sure that the

[0:33:48] Voice 5: contravention is of a minor nature impacts are minimal or it is not in the public interest to

[0:33:53] Voice 5: enforce should we add in there that you know bylaw needs to be clarified or updated I do think it's

[0:34:03] Voice 5: It's a good idea, but maybe we should come back to it rather than get stuck on the fact that, you know, sometimes the bylaws don't make sense.

[0:34:13] Voice 5: It's probably a bit too strong a word, but there are, as you said, opportunities to kind of fix things up based on a series of complaints.

[0:34:23] Voice 5: Yeah, I should park it and come back. Yeah.

[0:34:28] Trustee Patrick: All right. I see Director Cermak has an idea.

[0:34:33] Voice 4: I just would like to remind the group that file enforcement, at minimum, reports twice a year to Trust Council with full stats indicating what the number of investigations are that are open with each local trust area and it's broken down per type.

[0:34:49] Voice 4: So bare minimum, you get that information in order to help you at the Trust Council level. But moreover, you could take that to the LTC level so that if you're indicating a proportionally too high response or investigation of a certain type of file enforcement, that's your bare minimum.

[0:35:06] Voice 4: I also am aware that several LTCs request file enforcement to report on a regular basis back to them so that you have this information at your fingertips.

[0:35:16] Voice 4: tips. So I just wanted to remind you that you do have the information. You have an indication of

[0:35:21] Voice 4: some of the procedures that help you make those decisions. So that might help you capture that

[0:35:24] Voice 4: in this policy if you wish to.

[0:35:26] Trustee Patrick: But while I have you on the hook there, Director Cermak, though,

[0:35:30] Trustee Patrick: it's how would, I mean, those are general trends and things. How would we assume a general trend

[0:35:37] Trustee Patrick: is leading perhaps to a bylaw that is not clear or causing confusion where a bylaw officer is

[0:35:43] Trustee Patrick: getting told that by as they're you know addressing an issue or or sees that the cause of this issue

[0:35:49] Trustee Patrick: was because maybe it was misunderstood i

[0:35:53] Voice 4: think you know every island generally has an island planner

[0:35:56] Voice 4: or a planner that's assigned to it that oversees the work program the follow-up action list and so

[0:36:01] Voice 4: on and so forth and i guess in the case of salt spring that'd be more the rpm and it's the

[0:36:07] Voice 4: communication between bottle enforcement and the planning team that would you know if there was an

[0:36:11] Voice 4: issue, they bring it up, I think. But more importantly, I think it's when the bylaw

[0:36:15] Voice 4: enforcement team reports directly to the LTCs, and then the LTCs make that decision in direct

[0:36:21] Voice 4: discussion. I think as staff, professional staff, we do try to flag these things whenever we're

[0:36:25] Voice 4: aware of them. I think what quite often happens to be blunt is that we know many of these types

[0:36:31] Voice 4: of things that are going on around that could be amended by a bylaw amendment, but the LTC

[0:36:38] Voice 4: work programs tend to be overwhelmed if we don't get around to them and i can think of you know

[0:36:42] Voice 4: several insults bring myself so it's a matter i guess of prioritization which would be up to the

[0:36:49] Voice 4: ltcs that's

[0:36:50] Trustee Patrick: no i understand that i was just looking for more of a general guidance that

[0:36:54] Trustee Patrick: we're trying to move toward our bylaws being well understood and coherent and clear um as an overall

[0:37:02] Trustee Patrick: one thing anyway uh trust uh trustee uh campbell i did see you had your hand thought up for that

[0:37:07] Trustee Patrick: that moment did were you responding to or thinking of something for clarity and coherence no all

[0:37:14] Trustee Patrick: right well we'll just circle it for now and come back to it um all right any other guiding principle

[0:37:20] Trustee Patrick: comments all right roles and responsibilities no comments there i just have one comment because

[0:37:38] Trustee Patrick: it goes back to there's a i hear under roles and responsibilities it talks about the local

[0:37:45] Trustee Patrick: trust committee but when we go to the manual it has roles and responsibilities for trustees that

[0:37:51] Trustee Patrick: are different and it says that we act as a liaison between them but we don't so i was a bit

[0:37:59] Trustee Patrick: frustrated by the the you know the not having a definition or role as a responsible for trustee

[0:38:06] Trustee Patrick: but yet it shows up in the manual um and i see others i see trustee boland's hand up

[0:38:11] Trustee Patrick: i

[0:38:15] Voice 5: had a comment about the same thing that in the best practices manual indeed it talks about liaison

[0:38:20] Voice 5: and it also talks about the fact that reports will be provided to the local trust committee

[0:38:26] Voice 5: meetings if they request them um and i think they should this it should be more um proactive than

[0:38:36] Voice 5: that um you know we should be provided at a local trust committee with the report whether we ask or

[0:38:42] Voice 5: not it should be a standing order of business and i think the local trust committee here in the best

[0:38:49] Voice 5: practices manual it talks about the role of actually um i suppose creating implementing the

[0:38:56] Voice 5: bylaws so here it talks about enforcing but actually the local trust committee creates the

[0:39:03] Voice 5: bylaws which are then enforced so i think that should be uh like we are not in fact authorized

[0:39:12] Voice 5: to enforce this is kind of secondary to our role in creating the bylaw i don't know what you would

[0:39:21] Voice 5: call it ecology or environment which is then enforced so i would suggest that in there in

[0:39:28] Voice 5: the local trust committee it's um are authorized to um create and implement the bylaws and to

[0:39:41] Voice 5: enforce the bylaws that's

[0:39:47] Trustee Patrick: local trust committee roles and responsibility yeah yeah okay and

[0:39:58] Trustee Patrick: rob are you catching that one and

[0:40:03] Voice 5: another one on that page but uh it's on the same page but

[0:40:08] Voice 5: but it's definitions.

[0:40:11] Voice 5: Let's

[0:40:12] Trustee Patrick: not go to definitions yet.

[0:40:13] Trustee Patrick: Let's stick to responsibilities.

[0:40:15] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Campbell.

[0:40:19] Voice 6: It was the same thing about being a liaison.

[0:40:24] Voice 6: I know that we quite often hear from people

[0:40:31] Voice 6: sort of feeling like we should be able to be a liaison

[0:40:37] Voice 6: or that we should know what's going on with their file

[0:40:44] Voice 6: because we do get sort of like a one-line email

[0:40:50] Voice 6: saying that a file has been opened.

[0:40:54] Voice 6: But the way it was explained to me

[0:40:56] Voice 6: is we're sort of actually discouraged

[0:40:58] Voice 6: from getting involved in people's complaints

[0:41:05] Voice 6: and not acting as a liaison.

[0:41:07] Voice 6: on so i didn't think that that was a very accurate statement to have in there yeah

[0:41:18] Trustee Patrick: no i agree i um

[0:41:22] Trustee Patrick: and i'm going to look to staff before we go to trustee borthwick um on that topic of um the

[0:41:37] Trustee Patrick: roles and responsibilities of i guess would be the individual trustee and not getting involved in

[0:41:43] Trustee Patrick: by law enforcement or you don't want to talk about that right now um oh it says right here

[0:41:52] Trustee Patrick: let's say in the manual again it says communications with trustees a local trust committee or any

[0:41:57] Trustee Patrick: individual local trustee will not be involved in any aspect of the investigation of a complaint

[0:42:03] Trustee Patrick: or the preparation of any bylaw compliance enforcement that's on page 17 in the manual

[0:42:10] Trustee Patrick: manual and yet the manual had said that we were a liaison so i take it that's incorrect

[0:42:18] Trustee Patrick: um since we don't stop jumping up i'll go to uh trustee barthwick

[0:42:27] Voice 2: yeah yeah i mean that that that was basically that had been my understanding and i think

[0:42:31] Voice 2: i mean i think about this from the lens of like well where's the where's the potential for abuse

[0:42:37] Voice 2: in that situation and it is not appropriate for for trustees who are you know members of

[0:42:43] Voice 2: community that do, you know, we do have authority over, you know, creating that ecology, um, as,

[0:42:50] Voice 2: as Moray put it, which I really liked, um, because we do have, uh, you know, we do have a degree of

[0:42:58] Voice 2: control over crafting those rules. I think it is important for us to keep, uh, arm's length from,

[0:43:04] Voice 2: you know, specific investigations. Um, you know, that's not our job. That is, that is what our,

[0:43:10] Voice 2: our bylaw enforcement department are are you know trained to do um but that we do still need to be

[0:43:19] Voice 2: i think this this is the part where the communication that that um uh chair you were

[0:43:24] Voice 2: talking about before and like making sure that that information is is communicated clearly to

[0:43:29] Voice 2: trustees and and the dem and lta is one where we get that regular reporting from the bylaw

[0:43:34] Voice 2: enforcement um department making sure we have that information is what allows us to really

[0:43:40] Voice 2: make sure that we're making crafting those laws that are in touch with what's happening in our

[0:43:45] Voice 2: community but i think yeah that there is a lot of value in being arm's length and it allows us to be

[0:43:51] Voice 2: impartial when we do come come across a situation that we might feel strongly about there are things

[0:43:56] Voice 2: that will come up on our islands that we feel strongly about it's important for us to be a

[0:44:00] Voice 2: neutral arbiter uh when when we're faced with those decisions about what to do in a particular

[0:44:06] Voice 2: situation okay

[0:44:09] Trustee Patrick: thank you trustee Elliott yes

[0:44:13] Voice 11: so I do see there has to be

[0:44:16] Voice 11: congruence between the policy and the manual I just put some wording in the

[0:44:23] Voice 11: chat when we get back to the manual I do think we should remove acting as a

[0:44:29] Voice 11: liaison between the community enforcement officers and think about

[0:44:32] Voice 11: replacing it with something like the grammar is terrible but providing

[0:44:37] Voice 11: oversight, like through the LTC, providing oversight and giving specific direction to

[0:44:42] Voice 11: bylaw enforcement teams to be more responsive to community concerns, something like that,

[0:44:48] Voice 11: because it's the authorities in the LTC to give specific direction to tailor its policies

[0:44:56] Voice 11: to be more responsive to the community needs and concerns. But I agree that we're not a liaison.

[0:45:04] Voice 11: on so if anybody's got any better wording for that um there's a suggestion and thanks rob for

[0:45:10] Voice 11: getting that up so quickly um

[0:45:12] Trustee Patrick: so i'll look to everyone so is under the roles and responsibilities

[0:45:16] Trustee Patrick: that we have in this policy is it clear enough or do we need something added specifically to

[0:45:22] Trustee Patrick: to deal with this issue you think of future trustees think you've just been elected and

[0:45:29] Trustee Patrick: you're reading this policy for the first time do you understand um your role as an individual

[0:45:36] Trustee Patrick: trustee the

[0:45:40] Voice 2: i would i don't and i don't know if this is a bit this is a bit of a weird uh

[0:45:49] Voice 2: thing to try and separate that having it say straight up like local trust committees are

[0:45:56] Voice 2: authorized to enforce ltc bylaws um i understand that to be that the committee as a whole like as

[0:46:02] Voice 2: a whole are you know through the work in committee will will you know make determinations based on

[0:46:10] Voice 2: you know specific questions but um it sort of scans a little bit like

[0:46:18] Voice 2: the the ltc members have the ability to enforce bylaws which we don't uh so i i don't know if

[0:46:26] Voice 2: there's a better way to phrase that i i don't i'm not coming up with something off the top of my

[0:46:30] Voice 2: my head here but um that that feels a little obfuscated to me um but maybe there's maybe it's

[0:46:37] Voice 2: just a technical understanding but i think just with that particular lens chair um of thinking

[0:46:42] Voice 2: of a new trustee i don't know that they would necessarily uh scan that correctly okay so how

[0:46:51] Trustee Patrick: about for now we just oops sorry i was gonna say if we park or capture under roles and responsibilities

[0:46:56] Trustee Patrick: and individual trustee be added as well

[0:47:02] Trustee Patrick: so that we can drill that in?

[0:47:05] Trustee Patrick: We don't have to have the words right now.

[0:47:07] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Boland?

[0:47:09] Voice 5: I just thought of the word.

[0:47:10] Voice 5: I just quickly thought, what about enact bylaws

[0:47:14] Voice 5: and ensure that they reflect community values?

[0:47:19] Voice 5: And we do adopt enforcement policies.

[0:47:21] Voice 5: So enact is possibly a better word than create.

[0:47:27] Voice 5: create so we enact bylaws and we ensure that they reflect community values i think might be a way

[0:47:35] Voice 5: to describe our role although i i

[0:47:38] Trustee Patrick: will put uh either uh or uh regional planning manager kojima

[0:47:46] Trustee Patrick: on the hook here um but the local trust committees our i think we do have you know the words are

[0:47:53] Trustee Patrick: correct the way they're written to say we do enforce them because we are the body that enforces

[0:47:59] Trustee Patrick: it um so i it's the icr thank you robert kojima thank

[0:48:07] Voice 7: you chair yeah i mean we could uh just that

[0:48:09] Voice 7: wording like uh on trustee boland has suggested you know enact and adopt bylaws and then something

[0:48:15] Voice 7: like provide authority to enforce bylaws just uh make it a little bit clearer addressing sort of

[0:48:22] Voice 7: There's Trustee Borthwick's comment, which I understand someone reading it for the first time might interpret that as the trustees are out there actually doing the enforcement.

[0:48:31] Voice 7: So try and clarify both of those.

[0:48:34] Trustee Patrick: Okay.

[0:48:35] Trustee Patrick: So, Rob, I guess capture for local trust committees that we revise wording to clarify that.

[0:48:47] Trustee Patrick: Yeah.

[0:48:55] Trustee Patrick: All right.

[0:48:55] Trustee Patrick: Sorry, I have my husband on a phone call downstairs.

[0:48:58] Trustee Patrick: Noisy.

[0:48:58] Trustee Patrick: I apologize.

[0:48:59] Trustee Patrick: You can probably hear it.

[0:49:01] Trustee Patrick: All right.

[0:49:03] Trustee Patrick: So is that going to be, do we need a specific trustee roles and responsibility as well as LTC sufficient?

[0:49:09] Voice 2: I like the idea of having trustee. I think that just adds that extra layer of clarity.

[0:49:14] Voice 2: And I think that I was sort of thinking along those lines too, and I'd forgotten to until you mentioned it.

[0:49:19] Voice 2: I think that might be helpful.

[0:49:22] Trustee Patrick: I think it would be helpful too, because I always think of the complainant, you know, calling you up and saying,

[0:49:27] Trustee Patrick: come on, you can do this for me or you help me or whatever.

[0:49:29] Voice 2: ever

[0:49:29] Trustee Patrick: and that the policy is clear that no that isn't our job to jump in there and act on their

[0:49:36] Trustee Patrick: behalf yeah okay

[0:49:37] Trustee Patrick: so we'll ask rob to capture just adding a roles and responsibility for

[0:49:43] Trustee Patrick: a local trustee and we don't have to have the words for that we'll just say we'll get there

[0:49:49] Voice 5: trustee boland i liked the thing that was in the best practices manual which was that the trustees

[0:49:57] Voice 5: could be approached for a question on something

[0:50:03] Voice 5: before you resort to a complaint.

[0:50:07] Voice 5: I can't remember the word it said on your property,

[0:50:10] Voice 5: which I thought wasn't right.

[0:50:12] Voice 5: It was just any issue on the island.

[0:50:14] Voice 5: If you feel like there's a contravention,

[0:50:16] Voice 5: you could approach a trustee for information

[0:50:19] Voice 5: before you actually lodge a complaint.

[0:50:22] Voice 5: And I liked that idea.

[0:50:25] Voice 5: and it is kind of the liaison thing but it narrows it down to something specific that's pre-complaint

[0:50:33] Voice 5: and the trustee you might go yeah knock yourself out go make a complaint or really do you not want

[0:50:39] Voice 5: to step back and take a breath here and you know so i i think that that's a good role for us to

[0:50:48] Voice 5: have well i think

[0:50:49] Voice 5: let's let's just i was gonna

[0:50:51] Voice 5: say we should

[0:50:51] Trustee Patrick: ask that it be clarified because

[0:50:53] Trustee Patrick: because I do want us to make sure we're clear,

[0:50:55] Trustee Patrick: because I think probably like yourselves,

[0:50:57] Trustee Patrick: if someone is thinking of buying a property

[0:50:59] Trustee Patrick: or they're thinking of doing something

[0:51:00] Trustee Patrick: and they come and ask you,

[0:51:01] Trustee Patrick: what should I do or point me out to the regulations?

[0:51:04] Trustee Patrick: I always go, call staff.

[0:51:07] Trustee Patrick: I'm not going to give you advice

[0:51:09] Trustee Patrick: on interpreting the bylaw enforcement

[0:51:10] Trustee Patrick: before you decide to buy a property

[0:51:13] Trustee Patrick: or to build something to go to staff.

[0:51:17] Trustee Patrick: So I don't think we have to work the wording right now.

[0:51:20] Trustee Patrick: Let's just say we want to add a roles and responsibility

[0:51:22] Trustee Patrick: for an individual trustee to clarify that and if we capture thoughts but I think we need to be

[0:51:29] Trustee Patrick: very clear because think of us trustees reading it but also think of the public reading it you

[0:51:35] Trustee Patrick: know that they understand what we can and cannot do for them in a case of this okay any more comments

[0:51:44] Trustee Patrick: on roles and responsibilities we're just flying along here okay we're on to definitions and I

[0:51:52] Trustee Patrick: I know, Trustee Boland, you had one just you.

[0:51:58] Voice 5: Thank you. I am in the again in the I read the best practices thing diligently.

[0:52:05] Voice 5: Then we thought about it and thought, OK, actually, we need to tackle this first.

[0:52:10] Voice 5: So a lot of my comments were based on what I read there. One was the termination letter.

[0:52:16] Voice 5: So there's sort of several references to this determination and the determination letter.

[0:52:21] Voice 5: but it's not really defined and separated from the in the definitions the we jump immediately

[0:52:30] Voice 5: to the bylaw notice but yeah the the the initial sort of determination letter which I believe comes

[0:52:40] Voice 5: after a kind of an initial review where it's decided there is something to investigate

[0:52:47] Voice 5: investigate but i think that needs a definition there or else tell me that i'm wrong thanks

[0:53:00] Trustee Patrick: so is that so which specific one again sorry are

[0:53:07] Voice 5: you suggesting that a definition of the

[0:53:11] Voice 5: determination letter it's in the it's in both but it's kind of in the practices

[0:53:18] Voice 5: it's described as you will receive i think a determination letter and in here it's kind of

[0:53:24] Voice 5: if we'll be determined and it can be communicated to you.

[0:53:28] Voice 5: Okay, great.

[0:53:30] Voice 5: We have somebody who probably knows more.

[0:53:32] Trustee Patrick: I see, yes.

[0:53:33] Trustee Patrick: We have Warren Digman's hand raised.

[0:53:34] Trustee Patrick: Warren.

[0:53:36] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So, Chair, the purpose of the determination letter

[0:53:39] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: is to outline any contraventions

[0:53:42] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that have been established through an investigation.

[0:53:45] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: That's the purpose of that letter.

[0:53:47] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: It's the investigation is complete

[0:53:49] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and the by-law officer has determined

[0:53:51] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: these are the contraventions on the property

[0:53:53] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: or the contravention that has been identified

[0:53:56] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that arose from the original complaint and investigation.

[0:54:00] Voice 5: So that's kind of an important document, actually,

[0:54:02] Voice 5: and it precedes a bylaw notice.

[0:54:05] Voice 5: It's before you go to can we achieve compliance, yes or no.

[0:54:10] Voice 5: So, yeah.

[0:54:13] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So often before even that determination letter has been sent out,

[0:54:18] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: there has been conversation back and forth

[0:54:21] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and sometimes email correspondence

[0:54:23] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: about what is happening on the property.

[0:54:26] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And there may have actually been discussions

[0:54:27] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: about compliance before the letter even goes out.

[0:54:32] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So if initial conversation,

[0:54:36] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: we can't establish that there's going

[0:54:38] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: to be voluntary compliance,

[0:54:40] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: then there's going to be a determination letter sent out.

[0:54:43] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: It may or may not have a deadline.

[0:54:47] Trustee Patrick: Well, I think the question

[0:54:48] Trustee Patrick: is, should it be defined?

[0:54:50] Trustee Patrick: that's that's the question at hand and i think robert did you have a suggestion so

[0:54:55] Voice 7: section 3.8

[0:54:56] Voice 7: of the policy talks about the determination letter and what it would include so if the

[0:55:04] Voice 7: you wanted to add a definition it would be kind of a summation or a summary of that

[0:55:11] Voice 7: it's all kind of encapsulated in section 3.8 normally a definition is to

[0:55:19] Voice 7: establish the meaning of a term that may not be clear in the body or may uh you may have to read

[0:55:25] Voice 7: a whole number of sections of the body of the document so yeah we could certainly add a summary

[0:55:31] Voice 7: of section 3.8 if rpc rpc thought it was necessary yeah

[0:55:37] Voice 5: i think it's necessary because it is a thing

[0:55:39] Voice 5: you know the determination letter and um i think it precedes a whole bunch of other stuff

[0:55:46] Voice 5: and it's a key step in the whole process so i think i would like to see a definition of it there

[0:55:53] Voice 5: thanks how

[0:55:55] Trustee Patrick: do other people feel add a i'm seeing nods generally okay rob catch adding a definition

[0:56:03] Trustee Patrick: of determination letter any other definitions all right looks like we got through that one

[0:56:25] Trustee Patrick: Okay, now we're into the meat of things. We have the objective. Do we like the objective? Not seeing any grand disagreements. All right. Although, is the objective of the policy to achieve compliance or is the objective of the policy to provide guidance?

[0:57:13] Voice 5: Aha, good point.

[0:57:15] Voice 5: That's a very philosophical question.

[0:57:19] Trustee Patrick: Well, just the policy itself doesn't achieve compliance. It's guiding us to achieve compliance, I think.

[0:57:31] Voice 11: It is to establish clear procedures, expectations, and standards for the bylaw enforcement and compliance program.

[0:57:37] Voice 11: Yes.

[0:57:38] Voice 11: And then we should have bylaw compliances sought through a combination of education, mediation, enforcement techniques, and then primarily through an attempt to achieve voluntary compliance.

[0:57:57] Voice 11: client so again i'm looking at the language and i'll put it in the chat to establish procedures

[0:58:04] Voice 11: expectations and standards for the yeah thanks i've just got my video off because my internet

[0:58:12] Voice 11: keeps being stupid yeah

[0:58:20] Voice 5: possibly just to describe that to describe the process and the mechanism

[0:58:26] Voice 5: I think well it does

[0:58:30] Voice 5: it's guidance

[0:58:31] Trustee Patrick: by establishing the procedures and expectations and standards

[0:58:34] Trustee Patrick: so I think Toby's typing away so we'll let Toby type away and then Rob if you could catch that

[0:58:42] Trustee Patrick: to add to objectives I'm not seeing anyone objecting to the objective any other catches

[0:58:50] Trustee Patrick: for the objective good okay now we're getting into it item two commencing investigations well

[0:59:14] Trustee Patrick: I'll throw one out there do we commence with the investigation or do we start with verifying a

[0:59:19] Trustee Patrick: complaint because to me that's one thing I notice is the vexatious and frivolous is sort of added to

[0:59:25] Trustee Patrick: the back isn't sort of the first thing the complaints what's a complaint what's it you

[0:59:33] Trustee Patrick: You know, it's embedded in these sections.

[0:59:38] Trustee Patrick: But before we commence an investigation,

[0:59:41] Trustee Patrick: don't we have to receive and validate a complaint?

[0:59:44] Trustee Patrick: Anyone else feel that section, Diarrheal, Trustee Poland?

[0:59:56] Voice 5: Well, I think there's the investigation of...

[1:00:00] Voice 5: written complaint or it's not really it's a preliminary um review and then it's the

[1:00:05] Voice 5: investigation where you actually go and um look at the property etc so maybe we need to

[1:00:14] Voice 5: i mean it's really the preliminary review of the complaint that we're talking about here

[1:00:22] Voice 5: would that be a better description before you in a preliminary review of the complaint as submitted

[1:00:30] Voice 5: it and actually it's not even there it starts its um investigations are i don't really like

[1:00:38] Voice 5: the word commenced actually i find it a bit archaic but um i think this describes how

[1:00:47] Voice 5: complaints are received or maybe relieved rather than that they actually um that it's an investigation

[1:01:01] Voice 5: all right i'm gonna let the uh

[1:01:03] Trustee Patrick: robert go first here

[1:01:06] Voice 7: thank you chair um yeah if i understand it's

[1:01:11] Voice 7: you're suggesting just changing the title so that it's clearer to reflect what stage

[1:01:17] Voice 7: of a complaint this is yeah yeah

[1:01:21] Voice 5: what about receipt receipt and issue review something like

[1:01:26] Voice 5: that yeah

[1:01:26] Voice 7: or just something like complaints or making receiving complaints something like that

[1:01:30] Voice 7: something simple yeah

[1:01:31] Trustee Patrick: yeah no that's uh to me i think that would be correct and i see trustee

[1:01:35] Trustee Patrick: trustee um arthur sorry i'm gonna call you boland um

[1:01:42] Voice 2: yeah no i mean receiving complaints is exactly

[1:01:46] Voice 2: what i was going to suggest and it seems to me that like it's the title of that that is is really

[1:01:50] Voice 2: the issue um and and i think a lot of what you were talking about chair is is present in

[1:01:57] Voice 2: investigation and progressive enforcement in terms of verifying whether it falls within the

[1:02:02] Voice 2: jurisdiction. I do think that something should be potentially added here to capture whether things

[1:02:11] Voice 2: are vexatious at an earlier stage. I think that's the point, but this is where I think that lands,

[1:02:18] Voice 2: if I'm not missing my guess.

[1:02:22] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, that's what I, because frivolous and repeat or vexatious

[1:02:26] Trustee Patrick: complaints shows up at item 15 and i was wondering if that should be moved into this section how do

[1:02:32] Trustee Patrick: other people feel because that to me is the validation of a complaint is um where that

[1:02:40] Trustee Patrick: would happen in section two is is this a complaint or not does it move on to the next sections

[1:02:52] Voice 2: i'm just going to have a look at where what the wording is down in 15 but i may have a suggestion

[1:02:56] Voice 2: 15,

[1:02:57] Trustee Patrick: 1, and 2.

[1:02:58] Voice 2: Yeah, yeah, just, yeah, go ahead.

[1:03:08] Trustee Patrick: Any other thoughts, or does anyone from staff want to defend having Section 15 later in the document or not to move it forward?

[1:03:18] Trustee Patrick: Director Cermak.

[1:03:20] Voice 4: Thank you, Chair.

[1:03:21] Voice 4: It's interesting that I certainly thought about this very particular issue when drafting this and reviewing.

[1:03:27] Voice 4: viewing the uh i personally prefer to stay where it is but um i reason for that i think we can

[1:03:33] Voice 4: refer to it you know i will be screened for um you know frivolous repeat of x issues complaints

[1:03:39] Voice 4: do you mean you can refer you can just put a line saying that it's part of the process

[1:03:43] Voice 4: but i'd like to keep it captured where it's at because moving it in this entirety

[1:03:48] Voice 4: i just found the flow better there but that was just perhaps i got too deep into it maybe i'm

[1:03:53] Voice 4: defending it more than I need to. So I guess my answer is

[1:03:58] Voice 4: referring to later on the bylaw. You can certainly say that.

[1:04:03] Trustee Patrick: So you're suggesting in section 2 making a reference to

[1:04:06] Trustee Patrick: section 15.

[1:04:09] Trustee Patrick: How about others? I see

[1:04:11] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Elliott. No comments on that.

[1:04:16] Trustee Patrick: Something else. Anyone else? Trustee Boland, do you have a comment on the vexatious

[1:04:20] Trustee Patrick: repeat complaints? No.

[1:04:23] Trustee Patrick: No, something else.

[1:04:25] Trustee Patrick: Okay, so then Rob just captured making a reference then in Section 2 to Section 15, which is frivolous repeat and vexatious complaints.

[1:04:35] Voice 4: If I could just jump in there, I might also just say that the term is defined.

[1:04:40] Voice 4: So, you know, if we just said, if we even just put the term in there, we may not even have to say refer to Section 15, just include vexatious complaint in there and it'll do the rest.

[1:04:51] Trustee Patrick: Well, frivolous repeat or vexatious.

[1:04:54] Voice 4: Sorry, yeah.

[1:04:56] Trustee Patrick: We got a triple.

[1:05:00] Voice 4: Can I come with an acronym for that?

[1:05:02] Trustee Patrick: No.

[1:05:04] Trustee Patrick: Too many acronyms.

[1:05:06] Trustee Patrick: Okay, then.

[1:05:07] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Elliott.

[1:05:10] Voice 11: So this is not wordsmithing.

[1:05:14] Voice 11: It's more zooming out to ask a question about whether all complaints are investigated.

[1:05:27] Voice 11: and it's the question of shall versus may so the original policy in 3.1 stated where a written

[1:05:37] Voice 11: complaint has been received investigations may be commenced and an investigation file opened

[1:05:43] Voice 11: and so that caused a lot of confusion understandably the wording here is you know it

[1:05:54] Voice 11: it doesn't leave any room for, um, what do you call it? Yeah.

[1:06:02] Voice 11: It's investigations are discretion. Yeah,

[1:06:05] Voice 11: no discretion is dealt with in another

[1:06:07] Voice 11: place. That's great. Um, but in 3.4,

[1:06:11] Voice 11: if the manager determines that there is a potential violation,

[1:06:14] Voice 11: a file is opened. So there's no may about it.

[1:06:19] Voice 11: And I just wanted to check, you know, make sure the committee's, uh,

[1:06:23] Voice 11: Uh, fine with this.

[1:06:27] Trustee Patrick: Well, I, I agree.

[1:06:29] Trustee Patrick: I think that that needs to be looked at.

[1:06:31] Trustee Patrick: There's not only if it's repeat frivolous or vexatious, would a complaint be opened

[1:06:36] Trustee Patrick: and, or if the complaint doesn't belong to our jurisdiction, it's a regional district

[1:06:43] Trustee Patrick: building permit related issue, would a file be opened?

[1:06:49] Trustee Patrick: So I guess that's directed to staff or anyone want to.

[1:06:54] Trustee Patrick: well i was just

[1:06:55] Voice 2: i was just going to say that jurisdiction is addressed in in in 3.1 uh

[1:07:01] Voice 2: above that um so to my mind that sort of preempts that to some degree um

[1:07:09] Voice 2: we could put the language in if the manager determines there's potential violation and

[1:07:15] Voice 2: it's within our jurisdiction um you know you could put that in there but i think that might

[1:07:21] Voice 2: might be a bit redundant um i think it is captured there but i do think um i do think that if we're

[1:07:28] Voice 2: going it's not enough to just have the definition of vexatious and and empower that person further

[1:07:34] Voice 2: on i think as as trustee elliott saying it is important to have language that um pardon me

[1:07:40] Voice 2: frogs creeping into my throat uh important to lead to to make sure that that like there's not

[1:07:48] Voice 2: not an automatic uh uh action there i think that's the intent my god sorry

[1:07:58] Voice 11: i'm not clear

[1:07:59] Voice 11: there is an automatic action to my reading that it's in our jurisdiction if it's you know

[1:08:09] Voice 11: there is a potential violation a file will be open and this will be investigated that's to me

[1:08:15] Voice 11: what this policy is stating and just want to make sure that we're all comfortable with that there's

[1:08:22] Voice 11: know may

[1:08:23] Trustee Patrick: about it i'd like to look to stop is that intended yes

[1:08:31] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that is the intent if the policy

[1:08:33] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: trust council chair trust council's uh establishing policies on uh the expanding of

[1:08:41] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: enforcement resources and it's my responsibility to follow those policies ensure the resources are

[1:08:47] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: are only spent on those issues that are within islands trust jurisdiction and it's we need to

[1:08:57] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: follow what the direction that we're getting from local trust committees on what is a priority for

[1:09:05] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: them or enforcement so there's a whole list of issues that we're not going to investigate because

[1:09:11] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: they're not within our jurisdiction but if they are within our jurisdiction and someone has

[1:09:16] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: submitted a complaint we need to investigate to verify and establish if there's any type of a

[1:09:22] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: contravention all right trustee

[1:09:33] Voice 5: boland um my issue is that you know as i read all the

[1:09:40] Voice 5: both documents it's in every time i see a list i think is it similar to and or different from

[1:09:49] Voice 5: another list and if not if it should be in the same order or whatever so this list here

[1:09:55] Voice 5: which effectively says the list if you could just go up a tiny bit so we can see

[1:10:01] Voice 5: the beginning okay where a written complaint has not been received so basically

[1:10:06] Voice 5: originally we say that our bylaws investigation enforcement is driven is claim driven

[1:10:13] Voice 5: and here's a huge paragraph which is about non-complaint driven enforcement and that's fine

[1:10:22] Voice 5: But we also have a list which is similar but different, which is discretion and priority of investigation, which talks about health and safety by specific direction of a local trust committee, adverse environmental impact and contraventions of land use bylaws and other bylaws.

[1:10:41] Voice 5: So I think it's really important to highlight that this is non-complaint driven and it is basically bylaw contraventions of any kind, but especially health and safety.

[1:10:55] Voice 5: And it could be as directed by an island's local trust committee.

[1:11:01] Voice 5: So that paragraph there, I think, needs to be digested and integrated with the paragraph on discretion and priority, because it is very important because, you know, as I said, we launched the whole thing by saying, you know, it's all complaints driven.

[1:11:19] Voice 5: And then there's this big chunk. And, you know, people do complain about the fact that bylaw enforcement officers roam around and appear to find other things to create files on.

[1:11:32] Voice 5: And I'm not saying that they're not that they're wrong, but it's something that happens that really people become quite irate about.

[1:11:41] Voice 5: So if we don't actually communicate that very well, we are not doing a good job, I think.

[1:11:55] Voice 5: i mean 2.1 says investigations are commenced on a complaint basis with exceptions provided below

[1:12:01] Voice 5: the exceptions are extensive and it doesn't really say who can initiate those exceptions

[1:12:16] Trustee Patrick: yeah i think there's some good questions here trustee elliott

[1:12:23] Voice 11: i yeah i think this should this part should be really clear um who is able to investigate we

[1:12:34] Voice 11: should state um by law enforcement officers may initiate an investigation in one of the more in

[1:12:44] Voice 11: one or more of the following circumstances i think that protects staff i think we should state who is

[1:12:51] Voice 11: able to do this and maybe the basis on which um and i know we don't want to put rationale in a

[1:13:01] Voice 11: policy but um like should this be its own section no actually yes

[1:13:11] Voice 5: i think yes i think it should be

[1:13:13] Voice 5: a different section because i think bundling it under as an exception to the complaints

[1:13:19] Voice 5: basis um your eye could drift over it and it's really quite important but

[1:13:26] Voice 11: it's the basis for

[1:13:27] Voice 11: commencing investigations so there's only two paths either on a complaint basis or there appears

[1:13:34] Voice 11: to be these contraventions that are you know one to six

[1:13:40] Voice 5: even then even then you would make it section

[1:13:43] Voice 5: two um investigations or you know complaint-based investigations blah blah must be in writing

[1:13:50] Voice 5: cannot be anonymous etc section three is non-complaint i

[1:13:58] Voice 11: see what you mean so that

[1:14:00] Voice 11: the table or the tree should be investigating can be complaint-based and non-complaint-based

[1:14:08] Voice 11: yes complaint-based is one two three four um triggered by these circumstances

[1:14:16] Voice 11: circumstances, you know, is another section. I agree that it should be sort of two sections

[1:14:21] Voice 11: underneath table two. Well, maybe you can write that out, Trustee Boland. I had another

[1:14:27] Voice 11: thing that I wanted to get to, but I'm forgetting.

[1:14:32] Voice 5: I'll try and do that. But it's just that I feel

[1:14:34] Voice 5: like just bundling in non-complaint based things under an exception to complaint based

[1:14:44] Voice 5: isn't adequate because it's quite significant and it comes back to bite us later you know where we

[1:14:51] Voice 5: then try and say oh if it's health and safety or if it's this that and the other adverse

[1:14:56] Voice 5: environmental impact which is actually these items here described differently

[1:15:03] Voice 5: um which is fair enough but i think it's really important to tell people that well why don't you

[1:15:10] Voice 11: are commenced primarily on a complaint basis or through the following whatever and then triage

[1:15:19] Voice 11: that um yeah so i i think section three if we're going to get to that at some point

[1:15:26] Voice 11: is really long it's huge uh we could break it out into um a few not subsections but

[1:15:41] Voice 11: But I'm wondering if the 3.6, the consideration of unique circumstances, that's quite a long section that almost could go under, it's not Code of Standards of Conduct, which is later on.

[1:16:02] Voice 11: And I think that needs some work as well.

[1:16:04] Voice 11: But this piece doesn't seem to go with the others.

[1:16:09] Voice 11: you know and i i think it needs to be here absolutely um but i'm wondering if it's more of a

[1:16:20] Voice 11: how investigations are conducted sort of the cult the

[1:16:27] Voice 11: do you know what i mean anybody else yes

[1:16:29] Trustee Patrick: well it's your we're talking policy and this is more

[1:16:33] Trustee Patrick: i agree it's more food how do other people feel where does it belong better the

[1:16:42] Voice 11: one is a step by

[1:16:43] Voice 11: everything else is a step-by-step here is what will happen whereas this is these are the things

[1:16:49] Voice 11: that will be considered throughout an investigation um and i just think it's clunky to add it in there

[1:16:58] Voice 11: any

[1:17:07] Trustee Patrick: other wise thoughts here i see staff are busy looking looking any suggestions from staff on

[1:17:14] Trustee Patrick: better fit to this information or justification why it should be here there we go director sir

[1:17:20] Trustee Patrick: Mac.

[1:17:21] Voice 4: Thanks, Jared. You know, I see what you're saying

[1:17:24] Voice 4: and that it's an interesting observation. I don't disagree with you.

[1:17:28] Voice 4: My only recommendation might be to bump it up before Section 3 or very end

[1:17:33] Voice 4: of Section 2. And that way it sort

[1:17:38] Voice 4: of characterizes

[1:17:40] Voice 4: what's about to come. Do you know what I mean? Because it's talking about

[1:17:43] Voice 4: the approach that should be taken. Equitable

[1:17:46] Voice 11: enforcement. Sorry to interrupt.

[1:17:49] Voice 4: So that's my only recommendation.

[1:17:51] Voice 4: recommendations immediate?

[1:17:54] Voice 11: That was so in the recommendation for the ombudsperson's report,

[1:18:00] Voice 11: I found it. So it's equitable enforcement that they suggested we should include a requirement

[1:18:05] Voice 11: that bylaw enforcement staff be equitable in their approach. They should consider each person's

[1:18:10] Voice 11: unique circumstances so um i do agree it could go under um commencing investigations or even six

[1:18:34] Voice 11: discretion and priority or eight conduct of bylaw compliance and enforcement officers

[1:18:50] Voice 11: or it could just be its own section equitable enforcement these are the principles that will

[1:19:00] Voice 11: will be upheld throughout the enforcement process.

[1:19:07] Trustee Patrick: So a thumbs up from Trustee Graham on that one.

[1:19:11] Trustee Patrick: So thoughts from people

[1:19:13] Trustee Patrick: that this should be its own section.

[1:19:16] Voice 3: Yeah, I like that as a separate section.

[1:19:20] Voice 2: Yeah, I would agree.

[1:19:22] Voice 2: I think that's a good thing to highlight.

[1:19:25] Voice 2: So

[1:19:25] Trustee Patrick: Rob, that would be moving section 3.6

[1:19:28] Trustee Patrick: into its own section on something about-

[1:19:35] Trustee Patrick: Equitable enforcement.

[1:19:36] Trustee Patrick: Equitable enforcement.

[1:19:39] Trustee Patrick: or approach something of that nature all right christy boland still typing away on her thoughts

[1:19:58] Trustee Patrick: from section two i can see her thinking yeah i would carry on

[1:20:02] Voice 5: it'll take me a while

[1:20:03] Voice 5: that's all right keep at it you've silenced me for at least 20 minutes while i

[1:20:10] just

[1:20:12] Voice 11: tell her to make an information hierarchy and and just you both

[1:20:17] Trustee Patrick: we don't have to get the word you can always just say work on the wording come back with

[1:20:21] Trustee Patrick: the wording so we don't have to try to wordsmith it we aren't wordsmith experts here okay any other

[1:20:29] Trustee Patrick: on section three this very long section christy

[1:20:40] Voice 11: elliott so i do think 3.9 it's requesting a review

[1:20:48] Voice 11: that's a different section a respondent may request be reviewed review it's all

[1:20:57] Voice 11: until shouldn't that go under maybe nine reviewing the conduct

[1:21:13] Trustee Patrick: or an appeals is this an appeals

[1:21:16] Trustee Patrick: section maybe

[1:21:23] Voice 11: not there's only two that's well three 3.9 to 3.11 do people think that's

[1:21:34] Voice 11: because it's not an appeal process but you're no maybe it belongs there sorry

[1:21:44] Voice 11: about trustee bram um

[1:21:56] Voice 3: this is this is different this is a different concern it's an it's a real

[1:22:02] Voice 3: simple one let me just get it off the plate here uh throughout this document we see the word

[1:22:07] Voice 3: respondent and complainant capitalized and not capitalized and it's random throughout the

[1:22:13] Voice 3: document can we please uh choose one or the other and then just i really like that consistency

[1:22:19] Voice 3: And I'm channeling Trustee Bell.

[1:22:22] Voice 3: Louise Bell would have caught that immediately.

[1:22:24] Voice 3: And so thank you, Louise.

[1:22:34] Trustee Patrick: I know I have a general question.

[1:22:40] Trustee Patrick: Why exactly does the entire investigation sort of sit in bylaw enforcement when we have land use planners that are also in our island communities?

[1:22:52] Trustee Patrick: And what is their role in the investigation aspects?

[1:22:56] Trustee Patrick: aspects. I don't know if staff can answer that.

[1:23:08] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: I don't know if Steph and if Robert Kojima will comment. Chair, I would say

[1:23:12] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: they don't have a, I wouldn't call it an

[1:23:16] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: investigative role. The by-law officers are the investigators.

[1:23:21] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: They provide interpretations. So an island

[1:23:25] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: planner can provide an interpretation. We can go to the director or the RPM to

[1:23:29] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: provide interpretation. And sometimes we even go straight to legal

[1:23:33] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: council to provide interpretations so that's the role of planning staff in the whole process

[1:23:45] Trustee Patrick: robert

[1:23:46] Voice 7: just by way of an example up at section 3.5 3.56 kind of inserts managers planners and

[1:23:55] Voice 7: regional planning managers into that investigation or as warren says more about the interpretation

[1:24:01] Voice 7: transportation process by consulting that point there's a couple other points i seem to recall

[1:24:06] Voice 7: where um there's explicit involvement but

[1:24:13] Trustee Patrick: does that occur on every complaint or is it just at

[1:24:16] Trustee Patrick: the discretion of the manager yeah

[1:24:19] Voice 7: it doesn't it wouldn't occur on every complaint um i mean some

[1:24:24] Voice 7: Some are so, should we say, obvious that it's not required.

[1:24:30] Voice 7: Yeah, we're relying on the enforcement officers to bring forward to Warren, the manager, if there's interpretation issues, and for him or the officers directly to come to the planners and RPMs.

[1:24:46] Voice 7: What

[1:24:47] Trustee Patrick: if there's a conflict with interpretation? I'm not saying there is, but if planners observe something they think is not being observed the way they would have interpreted it, what's their course of action?

[1:25:00] Voice 7: Well, try and work it out with the officer and work it out with the manager. Ultimately, we could get a legal review.

[1:25:09] Trustee Patrick: I'm just saying, is that explicit in the policy that that can occur is all I'm asking.

[1:25:14] Trustee Patrick: asking

[1:25:15] Voice 7: uh back to 3.6 so 3.5 yeah 3.57 seeking legal advice where required correct but i'm

[1:25:28] Trustee Patrick: trying to say about this conversation between planners and bylaw enforcement how does

[1:25:33] Trustee Patrick: that path occur so

[1:25:38] Voice 7: i don't think it's as explicit in this draft of the policy

[1:25:41] Voice 7: policy that officers or the file enforcement manager will seek an interpretation from planners

[1:25:50] Voice 7: at every for every file or how they sort of triage files to determine where interpretations

[1:25:58] Voice 7: are warranted nor ultimately how it's resolved to be the director I assume who would make the

[1:26:08] Voice 7: call in most cases should

[1:26:10] Trustee Patrick: that be in the policy i guess is my question i

[1:26:17] Voice 7: don't think it's necessary

[1:26:18] Voice 7: currently it could be yeah it could be included in the policy anyone

[1:26:26] Trustee Patrick: else on this table anyway i

[1:26:39] Trustee Patrick: i think for me i'd like to see it be a bit more explicit on how where there could be

[1:26:47] Trustee Patrick: that sort of that resolution or that that process instead of leaving it informal that there is more

[1:26:52] Trustee Patrick: more of an opportunity to confirm or consult

[1:27:00] Trustee Patrick: or, you know, especially interpretation of the bylaws.

[1:27:06] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Borthwick.

[1:27:07] Voice 2: Yeah, I mean, I know we've talked about this in the past

[1:27:11] Voice 2: and I certainly, you know, I think we could get to a place

[1:27:17] Voice 2: and this is not to, you know, denigrate the work

[1:27:22] Voice 2: of the Bylaw Enforcement Department,

[1:27:23] Voice 2: department uh nor is it to put work on on planners unduly um but i think a collaborative

[1:27:30] Voice 2: approach there could especially with like island planners who have um you know a different

[1:27:37] Voice 2: understanding they view the islands through a different lens and they may have um uh may have

[1:27:44] Voice 2: insights specifically and obviously and i know warren your your staff have pretty good idea of

[1:27:49] Voice 2: what's going on a lot of islands but i think you do inherently see it through a different lens

[1:27:53] Voice 2: um and so i i feel like a collaborative approach with the island planners who maybe have a

[1:27:59] Voice 2: um you know yeah just that different familiarity with the islands might might not be an unhelpful

[1:28:05] Voice 2: thing to have um i don't know exactly where you'd capture it but i i do sort of i see that as an

[1:28:10] Voice 2: opportunity there could

[1:28:16] Trustee Patrick: it oh i see trusty billings what i was going to say could it be in

[1:28:18] Trustee Patrick: three five that we could say the officer will investigate the potential violation in collaboration

[1:28:23] Trustee Patrick: collaboration with planners? Oh, Trustee Cermak, sorry. I'm going to elevate you to an elected

[1:28:31] Trustee Patrick: official. Director Cermak.

[1:28:33] Voice 4: Thank you. Let me just throw my hand. So just conscious of the amount of

[1:28:38] Voice 4: workload that would take, right? There's, I forget how many files were, and you'll remind me, hundreds

[1:28:42] Voice 4: of files open for investigation. And to involve a planner in each interpretation is not desirable

[1:28:47] Voice 4: in terms of workload. It would just be overwhelming. And we have to give the breath and space to

[1:28:53] Voice 4: investigate officers. They are hired to interpret bylaws. And the attempt of 356 to consult with

[1:29:01] Voice 4: the manager planners and RPMs is to put in a relief valve there when there's a discrepancy

[1:29:08] Voice 4: of interpretations or something like that. So I think that's a discretionary need that we have to

[1:29:14] Voice 4: have. What I'm hearing from this group is perhaps to be a little more prescriptive about when we do

[1:29:19] Voice 4: So I would focus on that language personally, if you're saying, you know, it says, you know, seek legal advice where required, you know, maybe something like that, consult with the manager planners and or RPMs when required or when a known interpretation is of issue.

[1:29:35] Voice 4: issue, but I would really want to make sure that we're empowering

[1:29:38] Voice 4: violent enforcement officers to carry out interpretation exercises.

[1:29:46] Voice 4: Although I do think there are moments when, as you say, there's a long-standing history

[1:29:51] Voice 4: of interpretations.

[1:29:52] Voice 4: It might be a difference of opinions, and I think that is what this Talking to Managers

[1:29:57] Voice 4: Plan, as in RPMs, are meant to come to a consensus.

[1:30:00] Voice 4: on what the proper one is.

[1:30:01] Voice 4: But I know that Warren and his team

[1:30:03] Voice 4: is always looking for the correct legal interpretation.

[1:30:05] Voice 4: He's not too worried about community

[1:30:07] Voice 4: as much as he is correct legal.

[1:30:09] Voice 4: So perhaps Warren can correct me if I'm wrong.

[1:30:14] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: Well, through the chair, no, Stefan, that's correct.

[1:30:16] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: I mean, that's what in the end we must do.

[1:30:20] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: We must determine, you know,

[1:30:22] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: we have to go by what the law is.

[1:30:24] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: We don't, we can't come up with some,

[1:30:27] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: I know there's this perception out there

[1:30:29] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that we come up with some perhaps unique interpretations

[1:30:33] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that are those of the bylaw officer alone, and they're just not.

[1:30:38] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And there is a very collaborative process between planning staff

[1:30:43] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and bylaw enforcement staff about coming up with the correct interpretation.

[1:30:49] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: You have a great majority, a huge majority of the interpretations

[1:30:55] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: on what is lawful and what is unlawful.

[1:30:58] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: there's no discrepancy there there's really only really complicated cases serious cases where

[1:31:05] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: there can be a major disagreement between planning interpretation and bylaw interpretation

[1:31:12] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and then we go to the legal interpretation and young anderson comes back and says okay

[1:31:17] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: the bylaw officer was correct and that makes me very happy uh either that that's what happens

[1:31:23] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: the majority of the time because we do go through the legal opinions and we have an extensive

[1:31:29] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: database of legal opinions and so it's actually very rare for the most part that we have this

[1:31:36] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: discrepancy on interpretations we may have you know i had a discussion recently with robert

[1:31:43] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: kojima about what's a seawall what's a retaining wall so that's something in the future that maybe

[1:31:48] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: be we need to better define but that's really the exception to the rule here and there is a very real

[1:31:55] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: collaborative process that happens and it has to happen uh between all the staff at honest trust

[1:32:02] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: because we don't operate in a vacuum we are constantly talking to planning staff the bylaw

[1:32:08] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: officers are to go to the planning the weekly planning meetings and engage in the conversations

[1:32:13] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: conversations and the discussions. And at those meetings, that is the best place to

[1:32:18] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: discuss interpretations. And so that should be happening every week. And I think it works quite

[1:32:23] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: well. Over to you, Chair.

[1:32:28] Trustee Patrick: Okay. Well, I'm hearing good collaboration. I'm just not seeing it in the

[1:32:32] Trustee Patrick: policy as clear as I'd like to see, but I'd see. Trustee Boland?

[1:32:37] Voice 5: Yeah, I echo what you just said.

[1:32:40] Voice 5: said um i what i'm hearing warren is exactly what we discussed at the beginning when trustee

[1:32:47] Voice 5: elliott raised the um how do we deal with maybe a bylaw that isn't working as intended

[1:32:54] Voice 5: um and how do we identify it and it seems to me that that collaboration between you and the

[1:33:00] Voice 5: planners and that you know this is what i think as a bylaw person enforcement person and this is

[1:33:06] Voice 5: what i think as a planner that is truly the crux of that because um the planners working with the

[1:33:16] Voice 5: trustees are trying to you know um well execute land use planning but you know support communities

[1:33:24] Voice 5: in a particular way and if there is an unintended discrepancy or conflict then that needs to be

[1:33:33] Voice 5: be highlighted and i don't know whether there's a way to really that that comes back to the

[1:33:39] Voice 5: discussion we had at the very beginning that we parked which was um how would things like that

[1:33:45] Voice 5: surface throughout this process and i think what you're describing is exactly where it'll surface

[1:33:51] Voice 5: but so for instance if you go and get a legal opinion and it says yes you the bylaw officer

[1:33:57] Voice 5: you are correct go forth and enforce maybe as trustees and planners that's not what we want

[1:34:03] Voice 5: you know we would think like oops we didn't realize that that would have have that consequence

[1:34:11] Voice 5: i just leave it at that for the moment i don't think we can solve it right now this minute but

[1:34:16] Voice 5: i think it's a good place and where that could surface thank you trustee borthwick

[1:34:27] Voice 2: yeah and i i just sort of wanted to say like i think again like i'm not um obviously you you

[1:34:34] Voice 2: you have a duty to, to, to carry out the law and, and seek that legal thing. That's not,

[1:34:39] Voice 2: that's not the question. And I guess the part, um, what, what I'm talking more about is, I guess,

[1:34:46] Voice 2: in terms of like determining in, in that determination of violation, not in the,

[1:34:51] Voice 2: in the prosecution of it, I guess is where I'm, I'm seeking some more nuance. Uh, it's not about,

[1:34:56] Voice 2: uh, it's not about like, obviously if there's a, there's a, there's a law, we have to be legally

[1:35:02] Voice 2: I completely agree with you there. And you need to have freedom and to consult on every question of legal thing completely. Like, that's wild. And also, like, I think that's insulting to your staff. Like, you guys know what you're doing.

[1:35:17] Voice 2: um my point would be um if there's uh you know when we come up against uh the potentially like

[1:35:26] Voice 2: vexatious or repeated or frivolous complaints um obviously you guys have a pretty good handle on

[1:35:31] Voice 2: that stuff but there may be places where involving uh the planner who may have a bit more of a

[1:35:37] Voice 2: nuanced understanding of the island in some ways they're just just seeing it through a different

[1:35:42] Voice 2: lens it's not about in any way questioning the work that you guys do uh nor wanting to put that

[1:35:47] Voice 2: work on on planners because i agree that's it's totally uh counterproductive um

[1:35:56] Trustee Patrick: before i uh warn

[1:35:58] Trustee Patrick: another point here would be is i agree with what trustee boland was saying is this another place

[1:36:05] Trustee Patrick: this clarity and coherency um so if you're investigating the potential violation including

[1:36:14] Trustee Patrick: um i guess it is the intention the coherence the integrity or not integrity the um

[1:36:25] Trustee Patrick: I don't know what we were saying.

[1:36:26] Trustee Patrick: Clarity and coherence of the bylaw as well.

[1:36:29] Trustee Patrick: Anyway, go ahead, Warren.

[1:36:32] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So, Chair, Trustee Borthwick brought up the point of how do we resolve these issues of, okay, here's the technical legal interpretation of what's going on on a property.

[1:36:46] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And really, the way that it's been resolved over the years is by passing Global Trust Committee resolutions saying, well, we will defer enforcement on these issues.

[1:36:54] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and that's one reason why I put forward the LTC compliance and enforcement policy is to have a

[1:37:02] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: more robust document where the LTC would be giving direction to bylaw enforcement staff to say okay

[1:37:09] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: we're not concerned about these issues so we'll defer enforcement on it and I still believe that's

[1:37:14] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: the best tool to address those LTC specific issues and that they not necessarily can be

[1:37:22] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: addressed with trust council policy but they need to be addressed at the local level with that

[1:37:28] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: guidance from ltcs uh you know saying okay yes we are like gabriel is saying on mudge we're not

[1:37:35] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: going we're going to defer enforcement on the mudge island land use bylaw because there may

[1:37:38] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: be issues with it and so that's a path where it helps to resolve uh and deal with the debate of

[1:37:46] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: of what is lawful and what is unlawful

[1:37:51] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and how ultimately the LTC is going to deal with those issues.

[1:37:55] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: Over to you, Chair.

[1:37:57] Trustee Patrick: Oh, but this section doesn't,

[1:38:00] Trustee Patrick: this is where we're just saying,

[1:38:02] Trustee Patrick: I'm hearing you say all the right things,

[1:38:04] Trustee Patrick: but the section doesn't say that.

[1:38:06] Trustee Patrick: And I think that's what we're looking for

[1:38:07] Trustee Patrick: is the wording of where's that,

[1:38:10] Trustee Patrick: my favorite word of the month is off-ramp,

[1:38:13] Trustee Patrick: to either send this,

[1:38:15] Trustee Patrick: You could be absolutely right. It's legally enforceable and everything, but it's not right to do. It's going to go back to the local trust committee, and maybe they'll stop it, but that's not written here. So that's what I'm looking for, is that ability to have that path. Robert?

[1:38:32] Trustee Patrick: Thank

[1:38:35] Voice 7: you, Chair. Yeah, I was just going to express what you said, Chair. And this is the investigation stage. Later on, once the investigation is completed, then the LTC will have the opportunity to decide to proceed or not proceed.

[1:38:51] Voice 7: right? They can close any file at any time. We also keep a spreadsheet for each of the bylaws

[1:39:00] Voice 7: where we track potential minor amendments and technical amendments to bylaws. So where there's

[1:39:06] Voice 7: something comes up, sometimes it's through bylaw investigation process that there's outdated

[1:39:12] Voice 7: sections to bylaws or it's interpretations are unclear, needs to be clarified, things like that.

[1:39:20] Voice 7: we'll track those and then bring those to local trust committees usually once a term

[1:39:27] Voice 7: to consider making it as a minor project making some technical and minor amendments to their

[1:39:32] Voice 7: bylaws i

[1:39:34] Trustee Patrick: hear you again but i i'll go back to use the mudge as sort of that example do we have to

[1:39:40] Trustee Patrick: wait until we have a hundred people standing in our local trust committee meeting yelling at us

[1:39:45] Trustee Patrick: about something being upset or you know could this happen earlier at this stage that there's

[1:39:52] Trustee Patrick: a flag of you know there's a there's a something is raised at this stage of the of the investigation

[1:39:58] Trustee Patrick: that could be you know brought up earlier before we get the community all riled up and writing

[1:40:06] Trustee Patrick: letters and stomping into our meetings that's what i'm looking for trustees that you know do

[1:40:16] Trustee Patrick: Do you want that to be the path?

[1:40:17] Trustee Patrick: Wait till there's people upset?

[1:40:21] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Borthwick.

[1:40:23] Voice 2: Yeah, and this sort of goes back

[1:40:27] Voice 2: to a little bit of what Manager Dingman was saying

[1:40:30] Voice 2: in terms of the LCC policy,

[1:40:32] Voice 2: which I think is really good.

[1:40:35] Voice 2: And from the Denman side,

[1:40:38] Voice 2: I would like to see fewer things

[1:40:40] Voice 2: housed as standing resolutions.

[1:40:43] Voice 2: If we're generally seeing them as useful things,

[1:40:46] Voice 2: let's move them off that standing resolutions chart and into policy and into into everything

[1:40:50] Voice 2: else so yeah i mean being proactive uh i think is is uh in terms of how we're doing it not waiting

[1:40:57] Voice 2: to not waiting for the for the wheels to squeak if we know they're going to i guess is sort of i

[1:41:02] Voice 2: think where you're driving and i would share that and

[1:41:10] Trustee Patrick: i think maybe that would be what result you

[1:41:12] Trustee Patrick: have all these options to consult but not the why and then finally to seek legal opinion so that

[1:41:18] Trustee Patrick: That it's as you investigate the potential violation, including I think it is part of it is the clarity and understanding of the bylaw or something of that nature, including the link.

[1:41:38] Trustee Patrick: Anyone else have any suggestions of do you want to see something out of here from the others or are you fine with the way it is?

[1:41:43] Trustee Patrick: It's just me.

[1:41:49] Voice 11: I'd suggest, Chair, if you need language there, you write it.

[1:41:54] Voice 11: i'm not i'm not really tracking well with with what's needed so um i can't offer suggestions

[1:42:04] Voice 11: personally is

[1:42:10] Trustee Patrick: it would it be reviewing would it be a reviewing the interpretation or reviewing the

[1:42:20] Trustee Patrick: clarity and coherency of the of the bylaw uh maybe robert has an idea

[1:42:25] Voice 7: are you chair are you

[1:42:27] Voice 7: you looking for something along the lines of empowering managers to proactively report to

[1:42:35] Voice 7: local trust committees where there's potentially contentious issues identified through an

[1:42:40] Voice 7: investigation something along those lines

[1:42:42] Trustee Patrick: like

[1:42:43] Voice 7: you brought up the much example yeah yes it would

[1:42:48] Trustee Patrick: be contentious issues or in regard to clarity and coherence of the bylaw so that it'd be done

[1:42:55] Trustee Patrick: you know, as early as possible, not wait till later. Does that make more sense?

[1:43:01] Voice 5: Yeah, that's a good idea, because it's a more long term thing, but a local trust committee

[1:43:06] Voice 5: could intervene. And it actually responds to what Warren said, which is a local trust committee can

[1:43:14] Voice 5: make a resolution. Well, if they don't know about it, they can't make a resolution. And they may

[1:43:20] Voice 5: find out like you know three pages further on in the process when there's as you said

[1:43:25] Voice 5: 100 people in the room so maybe right here and you know seek consult with managers blah

[1:43:33] Voice 5: blah flag to local trust committee any concerns there may be with uh with the bylaw interpretation

[1:43:41] Voice 5: and or planners views so that the local trust committee can't action and intervene if they

[1:43:49] Voice 5: deem it to be um whatever the word is relevant it's not quite right but you know what i mean

[1:43:58] Trustee Patrick: trustee elliott's been uh writing away she's thinking well today her brain's firing in all

[1:44:02] Trustee Patrick: cylinders trustee elliott yeah

[1:44:06] Voice 11: um rob i don't know if you already put that in there but bylaw

[1:44:11] Voice 11: enforcement teams are encouraged to proactively report problematic inconsistent or contentious

[1:44:23] Voice 10: bylaws to the local trust committee for review so put it in the chat there but i'm not sure what

[1:44:28] Voice 10: you're referring to above c policy 3.5 where is that 3

[1:44:35] Trustee Patrick: .5 is the section that we're talking about

[1:44:37] Trustee Patrick: that's the comment so we're in 3.5 it's just adding something um i i don't think we need to

[1:44:47] Voice 12: be

[1:44:47] Trustee Patrick: specific on the wording here but i think it's we're talking about adding something that gives

[1:44:52] Trustee Patrick: It was to identify issues proactively, I think, is what we're generally looking at.

[1:44:59] Voice 10: But the wording that you had, Rob, what was that before you just deleted it?

[1:45:05] Voice 8: Oh, to the chair, that was Manager Kojima's suggested wording that he laid out.

[1:45:10] Voice 10: Yeah.

[1:45:11] Voice 5: Okay.

[1:45:12] Voice 5: I thought that was good.

[1:45:13] Voice 5: I would suggest put it in after consulting with managers, planners, blah, blah, and before seeking legal advice, flag to the local trust committees.

[1:45:23] Voice 5: And because they may say, don't seek legal advice.

[1:45:26] Voice 5: Here's what we're going to do because they have a legal authority, I think.

[1:45:30] Voice 5: So, you know, they could just short circuit that seek legal advice.

[1:45:36] Voice 5: I

[1:45:37] Trustee Patrick: think generally, I think I'm content with staff, I think, has heard us on what we're trying to say here.

[1:45:42] Trustee Patrick: So we're not asking specifically that it be these words, but that staff give some thought to how to add that.

[1:45:49] Trustee Patrick: If that's OK. I'm seeing nods from staff.

[1:45:57] Voice 5: It was a good point, and we got a solution in the end, having slandered around a bit, but yeah, good.

[1:46:03] Voice 5: All

[1:46:04] Trustee Patrick: right, section three then. We're still in section three. Any other comments in section three?

[1:46:10] Trustee Patrick: How are we doing here, you guys? It's coming on to noon. I guess we'll go up till noon, or are we going to just keep working?

[1:46:17] Trustee Patrick: I just thought I should do a check-in here. I'm seeing no nods from... So are we going to need a break here?

[1:46:25] Voice 3: Break at noon would be nice, thank you.

[1:46:27] Voice 3: yeah okay

[1:46:28] Trustee Patrick: all right so any other comments in section three do we want to start section four

[1:46:42] Trustee Patrick: or take this as our break moment one

[1:46:49] Voice 5: comment one

[1:46:50] Trustee Patrick: comment okay section four back

[1:46:52] Voice 5: to my i went back

[1:46:53] Voice 5: to my edited one so um i don't know whether it's necessary or not but i said maybe not but you the

[1:47:02] Voice 5: respondent receives a notice letter so now we have a notice letter a determination letter and

[1:47:08] Voice 5: And and I do think, you know, it may be self-evident to people who are familiar with all of this, but they are key kind of steps or in the whole process.

[1:47:22] Voice 5: So a notice letter is in capital letters. So I think I would quite like acknowledgement in the definitions that there's a thing called a notice letter followed by a determination letter.

[1:47:34] Voice 5: I think it helps also because they will be in the bylaw city views processes, I assume, and may even be called those there.

[1:47:48] Trustee Patrick: So you're

[1:47:49] Trustee Patrick: asking for a definition to be added for notice letter.

[1:47:53] Trustee Patrick: Yeah.

[1:47:55] Trustee Patrick: Dr. Cermak, your hand is raised.

[1:47:57] Trustee Patrick: Thank

[1:48:00] Voice 4: you. I heard you going over to Section 4, and I just wanted to point out Section 310 and 311.

[1:48:12] Voice 4: And I apologize, I didn't bring this up earlier when we were talking about it.

[1:48:16] Voice 4: But when a respondent or a complainant is not satisfied with the review of a determination by the manager,

[1:48:24] Voice 4: They can complain, and this is when the director of planning services may get involved to determine singly or in consultation with the relevant RPMs and planner.

[1:48:33] Voice 4: So I just want to show you that there's another checkpoint in there whereby there's engagement with the planning team.

[1:48:40] Trustee Patrick: Correct. But that's when the...

[1:48:42] Voice 4: After a letter's gone out.

[1:48:43] Trustee Patrick: Respondent has said, I'm not happy.

[1:48:46] Trustee Patrick: Right.

[1:48:46] Voice 4: But I just wanted to flag that.

[1:48:48] Voice 4: We've been trying to put in more clear demonstration of that sort of engagement with one another.

[1:48:55] Trustee Patrick: Thank you. All right. So we've asked Rob to catch adding a definition for notice letter.

[1:49:03] Trustee Patrick: Any other comments here on Section 4? I'm going to do that in two minutes.

[1:49:09] Trustee Patrick: All right. Well, we're on a roll then. Section 5, closing investigations. Director Cermak.

[1:49:30] Voice 4: Sorry, Chair. That was way faster than expected.

[1:49:32] Trustee Patrick: I know.

[1:49:33] Trustee Patrick: I

[1:49:33] Voice 4: really just wanted to point out the other part in section 4.1, the last paragraph, second sentence, investigations will focus exclusively on the specific alleged bylaw contraventions outlined in the complaint, unless other observations pose an immediate risk to public health, safety or the environment.

[1:49:50] Voice 4: I know that Trustee Boland brought that up earlier. I just want to say that we're trying to capture that to narrow down the focus of investigation to the reason of the complaint and to make it more explicit in policy.

[1:50:01] Voice 4: Thank

[1:50:03] Voice 5: you. Trustee Boland?

[1:50:08] Voice 5: I've sort of lost track of exactly where we are because I was reading my own version,

[1:50:13] Voice 5: Cap, you know, checking on comments. So I had a comment which was site inspection section 4.

[1:50:20] Voice 5: Are we there yet?

[1:50:21] Voice 5: Yes. This is the time.

[1:50:24] Voice 5: okay wow okay so um for one uh you have offices will provide prior notice the property owner

[1:50:36] Voice 5: blah blah except in cases where doing so would compromise the investigation and i said how is

[1:50:43] Voice 5: this decided or determined now i know for two says entry without notice in exceptional circumstances

[1:50:50] Voice 5: I just think it would be important to link that in exceptional circumstances to 4.1, because the accepting cases for doing so would compromise the investigation.

[1:51:03] Voice 5: It's just sort of left hanging in the air. And I think a connection to 4.2, you know, C4.0 would be appropriate there.

[1:51:17] Voice 5: there repeat that again see section which see section 4.2 which is entry without notice

[1:51:28] Voice 5: and they say except you know in the in 4.1 is say entry with notice um and maybe just leave it out

[1:51:35] Voice 5: entirely just say full stop um and then go on to 4.2 because i read it and i thought this is kind

[1:51:43] Voice 5: of alarming that it says except in cases we're doing so with compromise the investigation

[1:51:48] Voice 5: investigation without further explanation or who would determine that circumstance and but then i

[1:51:55] Voice 5: read on and i said oh yeah 4.2 describes that more or less so i just think it's kind of alarming to

[1:52:01] Voice 5: have that in 4.1 without referencing 4.2 no

[1:52:05] Trustee Patrick: i think that i think i think uh that is good advice

[1:52:09] Trustee Patrick: if your section 4.1 is how you enter with notice section 4.2 is why you would do it without notice

[1:52:14] Trustee Patrick: trustee Campbell up your muted I

[1:52:22] Voice 6: guess Robert had had alluded to this the possibility of this

[1:52:35] Voice 6: after we get this done and sending it for a legal review I think that some of this stuff really does

[1:52:44] Voice 6: does need to be looked at, not that I, well, I guess I do doubt in some cases that some of this

[1:52:57] Voice 6: would stand up in a court of law. And I know that it has been looked at in the past, but I just

[1:53:03] Voice 6: thinking on a recent bylaw issue that we had on Pender that went to the province and then the

[1:53:12] Voice 6: The province turned around and sort of gave a bit of a response as to why they wouldn't take it any further.

[1:53:21] Voice 6: And one of the points that came back was whether we had entered the property legally or not.

[1:53:34] Voice 6: And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to consider in some of these definitions.

[1:53:43] Voice 6: And at the end of this, it does need to go for a legal opinion as to the validity to all of the changes that we're making, because we don't necessarily know if we're making proper changes to a document like this.

[1:54:02] Voice 6: uh and i don't remember the fellow's name from young anderson that um spoke to us at the last

[1:54:10] Voice 6: council but he talked about how uh changing precedents changes um even even our mandate a

[1:54:20] Voice 6: little bit uh as things have have adjusted over the year over the last 50 years to what um what

[1:54:29] Voice 6: what may be redefined as the courts

[1:54:35] Voice 6: consider new information.

[1:54:36] Voice 6: And so I just, I think that this does need to go

[1:54:40] Voice 6: and have a good look.

[1:54:42] Voice 6: All

[1:54:49] Trustee Patrick: right, I'm sure this is a very sensitive issue,

[1:54:53] Trustee Patrick: these topics.

[1:54:55] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Graham.

[1:54:56] Voice 3: Thank you, Chair.

[1:54:58] Voice 3: I was pretty comfortable with the first paragraph

[1:55:00] Voice 3: until Trustee Boland pointed that out.

[1:55:03] Voice 3: out. And yes, that except in cases, blah, blah, blah. I would suggest except comma C 4.2 and then

[1:55:12] Voice 3: remove that the rest of that sentence. That's a that directs people to 4.2 before they start

[1:55:18] Voice 3: freaking out and going on social media. Okay, thanks.

[1:55:24] Trustee Patrick: Yes. All right. So Rob, if we could catch

[1:55:27] Trustee Patrick: that in section 4.1 of revising, making reference to 4.2 for the exception of entering with notice.

[1:55:58] Trustee Patrick: Other comments?

[1:56:00] Voice 3: Lunchtime?

[1:56:01] Trustee Patrick: Oh, that's right. It's getting very close. Are we no. Toby, you had something here.

[1:56:09] Trustee Patrick: Was that you for this section?

[1:56:11] Voice 11: I'm working on some wording which I can do over lunch between sections

[1:56:15] Voice 11: uh three and four which i think yeah i'd put some wording in the chat and i see that rob's

[1:56:21] Voice 11: already capturing it but i want to make sure it's clear investigative approach and conduct of

[1:56:28] Voice 11: bceos okay all

[1:56:31] Voice 5: right uh trustable i can leave it till after i was just going to say it's as

[1:56:39] Voice 5: authorized under the local government act um and that's fine you know the the approach the

[1:56:45] Voice 5: applicable legal authority is there a section in the local government act that we should reference

[1:56:50] Voice 5: to be quite specific i can look it up uh during over the break but it might be useful to put it

[1:56:58] Voice 5: in there but i'll take advice from others on that director sir mac thank

[1:57:07] Voice 4: you madam chair it's best

[1:57:08] Voice 4: in my opinion to leave it uh open because the local government act goes through many amendments

[1:57:13] Voice 4: over time and actually there's a lot of interest in amending it so we we know that the relevant

[1:57:18] Voice 4: sections are in there and it'd be easier for us to just keep it blank in terms of where

[1:57:23] Voice 4: lest we keep trying to update this policy just to refer to new numbers that's thanks and

[1:57:29] Voice 5: is that the

[1:57:30] Voice 5: only legal authority that would allow us to enter without notification because it says under the

[1:57:38] Voice 5: local government act and then it says specifying the applicable legal authority are there other

[1:57:45] Voice 5: Are there legal authorities that might authorize this?

[1:57:48] Voice 5: Thanks.

[1:57:50] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So, Chair, may I answer that question?

[1:57:53] Trustee Patrick: Please do.

[1:57:54] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: There's case law.

[1:57:56] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So there's extensive case law on this,

[1:57:58] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and bylaw officers do not have to give notice to enter property.

[1:58:04] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: It only has to follow what's in the Local Government Act,

[1:58:08] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and it be at a reasonable time, which is basically daylight hours.

[1:58:11] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: But judges have repeatedly stated that bylaw officers can enter any property.

[1:58:17] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that they're investigating and that we don't need warrants

[1:58:22] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: to actually enter the property.

[1:58:24] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: The only exception to that would be a dwelling house

[1:58:27] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: where we do need permission from the property owner

[1:58:30] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: to enter a dwelling house, but we rarely enter

[1:58:32] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: or need to enter a dwelling house.

[1:58:34] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: But within the community charter, to make this, I guess,

[1:58:38] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: more complicated, within the community charter,

[1:58:41] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: you must give notice and get consent from the property owner

[1:58:47] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: to enter a dwelling house but any other property for someone a regional district bylaw officer and

[1:58:53] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that's what island trust bylaw officers really are same as a regional district bylaw officer we can

[1:58:58] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: enter at any reasonable time and that's the case law on that all

[1:59:09] Trustee Patrick: right here's something

[1:59:09] Trustee Patrick: yes here's something to stop brooking okay this meeting is only scheduled to go to one o'clock

[1:59:15] Trustee Patrick: it is noon and we're asking for a break uh how long a break should we be taking folks

[1:59:20] Trustee Patrick: folks. One o'clock is going to come fast. Half hour.

[1:59:25] Trustee Patrick: You want a full half hour and then we're

[1:59:27] Trustee Patrick: going to wrap this all up in 30 minutes. Okay. Go get your babies. All right. We'll take a break

[1:59:34] Trustee Patrick: for 30 minutes and come back on high speed to do the best we can. All right. Have a good break.

[2:29:11] Voice 12: 12 30.

[2:29:16] Trustee Patrick: Yippity skippity. Are we all back here? Yes. Good, good, good. So time check. We have 30

[2:29:25] Trustee Patrick: minutes. I believe everyone is intending to end at one o'clock today. We are not going to finish

[2:29:31] Trustee Patrick: this activity that's before us, I can predict, because we're going to need at least 10 minutes

[2:29:36] Trustee Patrick: to go back and review our list of changes for today to formalize that into a resolution. So

[2:29:43] Trustee Patrick: So we need to allow time for that and not run the clock out.

[2:29:46] Trustee Patrick: So I just want to confirm everyone is agreeing that one o'clock is our target finish for today.

[2:29:52] Trustee Patrick: And we'll have to look to staff where we're not going to get this job done today.

[2:29:57] Trustee Patrick: So how we can go about finishing it.

[2:30:00] Trustee Patrick: keep this project on some form of a schedule so we'll proceed and see how we do through the rest

[2:30:07] Trustee Patrick: of the document we were in oops got my page turned over we were in section four um did we

[2:30:16] Trustee Patrick: complete section four anyone have

[2:30:21] Voice 3: i think we did yeah

[2:30:23] Trustee Patrick: any other any changes additions so pass on

[2:30:26] Trustee Patrick: then into section five which is closing investigations not seeing any comments

[2:30:43] Trustee Patrick: jumping up closing or something up there we have trustee elliott so

[2:30:48] Voice 11: this is the first time that

[2:30:50] Voice 11: i've seen not in the public interest to enforce this is 5.1.4 um i i appreciate this i think it's

[2:31:02] Voice 11: um a good clause to have do we need examples or instances of something that is so

[2:31:13] Voice 11: like how will that be determined is my question to staff what is what is not in the public interest

[2:31:21] Voice 11: to enforce i thought that was by determination of the ltc through the um um enforcement policy

[2:31:31] Voice 11: policy but so

[2:31:34] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: chair i can provide a couple of examples please

[2:31:36] Trustee Patrick: do uh

[2:31:38] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: so the longest standing

[2:31:39] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: example has been small sheds and setbacks uh they're minor contraventions and we just

[2:31:46] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: um in the end if someone isn't going to comply and we can give them a ticket or not give them

[2:31:51] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: a ticket we're not going to take that individual property owner to court over some small shed so

[2:31:57] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So that's not in anyone's interest to enforce on in the end,

[2:32:04] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: to take any further than say, okay, here's your ticket,

[2:32:07] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: here's your fine for doing this,

[2:32:09] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: because it would just take up too many resources for such a minor thing.

[2:32:13] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: The most recent one has been with agreement with Director Suramak

[2:32:18] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and myself is farm stands.

[2:32:20] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: Farm stands are ubiquitous, and there can be complaints about them,

[2:32:26] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: But in the end, almost all the OCPs have references to food security and people love farm stands.

[2:32:34] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: They're part of the community of local islands.

[2:32:36] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So in the end, that's something else we're not going to take to court.

[2:32:40] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And Director Cermak and I, someone should even give a ticket for that.

[2:32:44] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: Unless, of course, there's some health and safety issue.

[2:32:47] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And the health and safety issue would be people put them out too far off their property, out in the side of the road where they become a hazard.

[2:32:56] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So those are two examples where it's just not in the public interest to pursue them.

[2:33:02] Voice 11: Okay.

[2:33:03] Voice 11: I'm supportive of leaving that in as, yeah, not everything has to be at the discretion of the LTC.

[2:33:10] Voice 11: Folks can make decisions too.

[2:33:11] Voice 11: This is great.

[2:33:12] Voice 11: Thanks.

[2:33:16] Voice 5: Trustee Boland.

[2:33:19] Voice 5: I'm just looking for a bit of clarification.

[2:33:22] Voice 5: So here it talks about the Director of Planning Services.

[2:33:29] Voice 5: services. But the director of planning services isn't really mentioned in the roles and

[2:33:33] Voice 5: responsibilities. And I think the director of planning services in the Ireland's Trust

[2:33:39] Voice 5: acts as a screening officer as well, if I'm not wrong. So it might be worth putting it into the

[2:33:46] Voice 5: roles and responsibilities.

[2:33:49] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So, Chair, the director of planning services is not the screening officer.

[2:33:53] Voice 5: Oh, who is the screening officer? The manager.

[2:33:57] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: If a bio officer writes the ticket, it's the

[2:33:59] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: the manager, myself, who's a screening officer, if I write a ticket, it's the regional planning

[2:34:03] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: manager currently for each area that would be the screening officer. The director of planning

[2:34:10] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: services actually has, I don't want to hurt his feelings, but no role in the bylaw notice process.

[2:34:17] Voice 5: But he has a role here, and it's not defined in the roles and responsibilities. So maybe that

[2:34:23] Voice 5: That would be something that could be corrected.

[2:34:28] Voice 5: Yeah, Nora is

[2:34:29] Trustee Patrick: a screen officer.

[2:34:30] Voice 5: It's

[2:34:30] Trustee Patrick: an important role here.

[2:34:31] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, I think that's a couple.

[2:34:33] Trustee Patrick: Director Cermak.

[2:34:36] Voice 4: Thank you.

[2:34:37] Voice 4: No feelings hurt, Warren.

[2:34:39] Voice 4: Thanks.

[2:34:40] Voice 4: I just wanted to say that's my name

[2:34:42] Voice 4: that's at the very top of the document of the policy

[2:34:44] Voice 4: as the holder of this policy.

[2:34:45] Voice 4: It's my job to bring it forward

[2:34:47] Voice 4: and sort of monitor its health and so on and so forth.

[2:34:52] Voice 4: So my role is sort of there at the top of that.

[2:34:56] Voice 4: But I hear what you're saying.

[2:34:57] Voice 4: Because I'm in Section 514, you're looking for more discrepancy.

[2:35:01] Voice 4: But I just thought I'd tell you that's my overall role in this policy.

[2:35:06] Trustee Patrick: And should a screening officer's role be defined as well?

[2:35:10] Trustee Patrick: That's a good point.

[2:35:13] Trustee Patrick: Who among us can explain what a screening officer is?

[2:35:16] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So, Chair, the local trust committees, when they adopt a by-law notice by law,

[2:35:23] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: they establish who the screening officers are.

[2:35:27] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So that's done at the local trust committee level because that is a LTC bylaw.

[2:35:33] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: And because it is at the LTC level, I don't believe it should actually be referenced in the actual trust council policy.

[2:35:42] Trustee Patrick: Is screening officer discussed anywhere in here?

[2:35:52] Trustee Patrick: Robert?

[2:35:53] Trustee Patrick: I

[2:35:54] Voice 7: did a quick search and it doesn't show up in the policy.

[2:35:58] Voice 5: Okay.

[2:35:59] Voice 5: It is discussed, I can't remember because I remember reading about it and it's the concept that in the very first stage when you receive the complaint and before you open the file,

[2:36:15] Voice 5: I thought it was the screening officer role to help decide whether or not the complaint would be a file or be investigated.

[2:36:32] Voice 5: OK, go on.

[2:36:33] Voice 5: Actually, just one last thing.

[2:36:34] Voice 5: I think if the role of the screening officer, it seems very weird to me to have that role defined at the local trust level.

[2:36:44] Voice 5: um because it's potentially i think in the ombudsman's report it was spoken of it's quite

[2:36:51] Voice 5: a big role and quite an important role because it's the sort of maybe it's the person to whom

[2:36:57] Voice 5: the complainant's complaint goes um so it's very important i think and and i'm surprised that it's

[2:37:05] Voice 5: not actually in this policy document in some form uh one so

[2:37:12] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: chair the screening officer is

[2:37:13] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: established by the bylaw notice enforcement act and so when a local trust committee establishes

[2:37:20] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: a bylaw enforcement notice bylaw and system then there's a screening officer created and not until

[2:37:26] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: that point so saturn doesn't have a screening officer the skidi doesn't have a screening

[2:37:31] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: officer because there's no bend bylaw and there's no tickets written a screening officer does not

[2:37:36] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: become part of the bylaw enforcement process until a bylaw violation notice is disputed

[2:37:42] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and then it must be reviewed by a screening officer.

[2:37:46] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: Now, the policies and procedures and the appointment of screening officers

[2:37:49] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: is set down in a policy document by the LTC

[2:37:54] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: and is adopted typically at the time of the adoption of the Bend By-law.

[2:37:58] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: So that's where all of those, the authority, duties, roles of the screening officer

[2:38:05] Manager of Bylaw Compliance and Enforcement: are defined at the local level.

[2:38:11] Trustee Patrick: Okay. I mean, I'm understanding your,

[2:38:14] Trustee Patrick: I think this is where we have our challenge when we have a trust council policy and we're trying to make transparency and clarity for people exposed to, not exposed to, but have a complaint against them or they're the complainer, that we have clarity.

[2:38:31] Trustee Patrick: And when our own level of government sometimes creates that, how do we make sure we can follow along?

[2:38:38] Trustee Patrick: And Robert's going to solve my problems for me.

[2:38:40] Trustee Patrick: I

[2:38:40] Voice 7: don't know about that chair, but a screening officer's role is discussed quite a bit in the

[2:38:45] Voice 7: manual as opposed to the policy here. I'm talking about right now.

[2:38:53] Trustee Patrick: Okay. Trustee Borthwick.

[2:38:58] Voice 2: Yeah. I was just about to say that I'm looking at the bylaw enforcement manual because we do

[2:39:02] Voice 2: have it in here. And I'm noticing that we might need to clarify some of this language. If not,

[2:39:08] Voice 2: Not all islands have a ban by law.

[2:39:13] Voice 2: We currently say that each local trust committee.

[2:39:16] Voice 2: Oh, I see.

[2:39:16] Voice 2: Sorry.

[2:39:17] Voice 2: Each local trust committee that that has adopted a bylaw.

[2:39:20] Voice 2: Okay.

[2:39:22] Voice 2: Yeah.

[2:39:22] Voice 2: Nevermind.

[2:39:23] Voice 2: That's, that was the discrepancy that I'd sort of like noticed here.

[2:39:25] Voice 2: It is, it is discussed here.

[2:39:28] Voice 2: But I mean, I, yeah, if it exists at an LTA level,

[2:39:32] Voice 2: then that's a different, different kettle of fish.

[2:39:35] Voice 2: Nevermind.

[2:39:37] Trustee Patrick: Director Cermak.

[2:39:41] Voice 4: Thank you, Chair. It is with regret. Policy 551 should have, as indicated in the drafting of it,

[2:39:48] Voice 4: attached to it, forming part of it, a template of the LTC bylaw compliance enforcement policy.

[2:39:56] Voice 4: And that's not here attached to your report. So it might have helped with the flow of information

[2:40:00] Voice 4: to see it there. So that's my fault. I should have caught that on there. And I certainly had

[2:40:04] Voice 4: I'd liked it before I sent it out, but somehow A and B didn't connect to McSee.

[2:40:09] Voice 4: So my point of that is, I think when we read the document as a whole to include the LTC

[2:40:16] Voice 4: bylaw compliance and enforcement policy, I think you'll see that it'll be a little clearer

[2:40:21] Voice 4: in terms of what you're saying, transparency and the rest in this document, in policy 551

[2:40:27] Voice 4: to have the template attached.

[2:40:28] Voice 4: So I'm sorry that I didn't make it into this agenda package.

[2:40:31] Voice 4: Would

[2:40:32] Trustee Patrick: it not help, though, to have a section that at least introduces what it is and has a direction to it so that it sort of stands? Because I think that's the comment I think we're having. When you put your hat on of trying to understand and connect things, it doesn't look like it connects. Robert?

[2:40:52] Voice 7: So perhaps the place to introduce the screening officer role would be Section 10, where it talks specifically about the file enforcement notice and dispute adjudication system, where it's pretty basic now. It could be expanded upon in that section.

[2:41:10] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. So we would have, well, I guess that's jumping ahead to Section 10. So let's park that one for a second, and then capture that one, Rob, that we have a Section 10 opportunity to discuss or make that a little bit deeper, introducing the template as well as the screening officer.

[2:41:34] Trustee Patrick: So back to Section 5.

[2:41:39] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Graham.

[2:41:40] Trustee Patrick: Thank

[2:41:42] Voice 3: you, Chair. Just another little inconsistency. It's a bylaw compliance enforcement. So anytime it's referenced and you drop the word compliance, it says bylaw enforcement officer, but it's actually a bylaw compliance and enforcement officer. So again, let's just stay consistently with that title throughout the documents and I'll be happy. Thank you.

[2:42:04] Trustee Patrick: All right. So Rob, hopefully you caught that. Let's another grouping of words to search and

[2:42:10] Trustee Patrick: clean up. Trustee Elliott.

[2:42:15] Voice 11: I have nothing else on the rest of this, but I did want to ask

[2:42:21] Voice 11: if we were able to get to the new section that I'd suggested and sent to the rest of RPC members

[2:42:27] Voice 11: once we're finished with this.

[2:42:30] Trustee Patrick: We'll do the best we can. Okay. So if we have nothing else on section

[2:42:39] Trustee Patrick: Section 5, we're into Section 6, Discretion and Priority of Investigation.

[2:42:56] Trustee Patrick: I know I'm wondering, is this sufficient?

[2:42:59] Trustee Patrick: I know discretion, I think, is so important.

[2:43:05] Trustee Patrick: Is this really sufficient to describe this?

[2:43:19] Voice 5: Trustee Baldwin?

[2:43:22] Voice 5: Yeah, I just wonder about the fact that it says prioritized and then there's a list.

[2:43:28] Voice 5: And the last thing on the list is Controversions of Land Use Bylaws.

[2:43:33] Voice 5: And it's kind of like I'm reading it as though contraventions of land use bylaws are the least important thing.

[2:43:42] Voice 5: And they kind of are in this context.

[2:43:46] Voice 5: But all of the above are contraventions of land use bylaws, I think.

[2:43:56] Voice 5: so sticking them in as a catch-all at the end kind of almost cancels out the fact that there's

[2:44:02] Voice 5: any kind of prioritization um does that make sense like we're saying that health and safety

[2:44:10] Voice 5: override everything adverse environmental impact overrides and then we kind of cancel all of that

[2:44:18] Voice 5: by saying all controvert contraventions of land use bylaws so in my view we should remove the

[2:44:26] Voice 5: last question.

[2:44:33] Trustee Patrick: Any other thoughts here? Director Cermak?

[2:44:40] Voice 4: Sorry to jump into the discussion so much.

[2:44:43] Voice 4: I think we need that there because this is meant to show the rank of priority. If we remove it,

[2:44:50] Voice 4: it implies that there is no priority to investigate the bylaw at all, only for direction of LTC and

[2:44:56] Voice 4: only for health and safety issues and only for adverse environmental. There surely could be

[2:45:00] Voice 4: other issues in the land use bylaws, such as setbacks for a shed and a setback line or

[2:45:05] Voice 4: something. So I think this is meant to be a ranking in order, and that's the order in which

[2:45:11] Voice 4: we assign resources. Therefore, I would think that we would have to have that catch-all phrase.

[2:45:17] Voice 4: But that's my thought. I

[2:45:19] Trustee Patrick: know, looking at whether they're cities, do some of them just say flat out,

[2:45:24] Trustee Patrick: you know we don't have the resources and capacity to to do it all and as a result we you know we

[2:45:31] Trustee Patrick: we are prioritizing it in this way so i think if we had introduced it as overall bylaw compliance

[2:45:37] Trustee Patrick: of our of what it is we are working on which is our our regulations um how we make choices within

[2:45:46] Trustee Patrick: that trustee elliott

[2:45:48] Voice 11: i i'm i want to go but i'm getting a call for some reason give me a second

[2:45:56] Voice 11: um

[2:45:58] Trustee Patrick: while she's dealing with her call i know she did put something in her in the notes which is

[2:46:02] Trustee Patrick: okay i'm back yeah um

[2:46:05] Voice 11: so def so discretion um is should be part of uh conduct as well i think

[2:46:12] Voice 11: and so i was looking back at the ombudsperson's best practices manual there is um they've got a

[2:46:19] Voice 11: quick tips on discretion and that is the definition that's offered discretion in

[2:46:26] Voice 11: administrative decision-making involves the power to choose between two or more

[2:46:29] Voice 11: possible courses of action using professional judgment and expertise so

[2:46:33] Voice 11: we could add that as a definition and then under this section maybe 6.2

[2:46:41] Voice 11: discretion will be exercised through and I'm going back to the investigative

[2:46:53] Voice 11: approach sort of section that I was suggesting because what the bylaw or sorry the best practices

[2:47:05] Voice 11: manual references is discretion also describes an appropriate fair investigative approach

[2:47:13] Voice 11: which is considering the specific context and circumstances which we lay out in this potentially

[2:47:22] Voice 11: new section. Is this making sense? So discretion is, I think this section six should be called

[2:47:32] Voice 11: just priority of investigation. Discretion should be mentioned in investigative approach

[2:47:39] Voice 11: and conduct. Well, no, because it's a priority as well. There was another way of getting around

[2:47:49] Voice 11: this and I know I'm talking too much but some local governments have a class one

[2:47:57] Voice 11: and class two type of bylaws so class one will always be investigated those

[2:48:04] Voice 11: are the ones that are health and safety adverse no I think you're returning here

[2:48:15] Voice 11: yeah there we are um but let's not get into that now so we could define specific bylaw

[2:48:22] Voice 11: infractions by class one and class two but i think that's too complicated for right now

[2:48:27] Voice 11: so do we want a definition of discretion and can discretion be explored more fully

[2:48:39] Voice 11: in the investigative approach.

[2:48:44] Trustee Patrick: I agree.

[2:48:45] Trustee Patrick: I don't have the answers,

[2:48:47] Trustee Patrick: and I think we don't have to get into that detail at the moment.

[2:48:50] Trustee Patrick: Anyone else have feelings on that one, or thoughts?

[2:48:58] Trustee Patrick: Other than say, it's not quite enough what we got here.

[2:49:01] Trustee Patrick: We don't know what it is.

[2:49:03] Trustee Patrick: A definition, I think, would be useful.

[2:49:09] Trustee Patrick: Because I think especially as we start thinking of our roles

[2:49:12] Trustee Patrick: and responsibilities, the local trust committee does play a role

[2:49:15] Trustee Patrick: in setting discretion by by the way it makes you know gives its direction on prioritizing

[2:49:22] Trustee Patrick: enforcement so i think there could be some clear ways of explaining it but we have no

[2:49:32] Trustee Patrick: brilliant ideas at the moment so rob will just catch it as needs work

[2:49:41] Trustee Patrick: and

[2:49:41] Voice 5: add to it yeah go ahead it's very difficult it the concept of discretion is very difficult

[2:49:48] Voice 5: to put parameters around um it's almost like um if you describe the parameters you're laying out

[2:49:57] Voice 5: a roadmap for people to in inverted commas break the law like here the here are the ways in which

[2:50:04] Voice 5: you can you know make it possible to you know effectively it's kind of like an ad hoc variance

[2:50:11] Voice 5: audience yes so um it's kind of hard if you really lay it down i think there's quite a lot

[2:50:19] Voice 5: elsewhere about um looking at the particular circumstances of the people and the complaint

[2:50:28] Voice 5: the context and maybe that kind of covers it that you take all of that into account and maybe that's

[2:50:36] Voice 5: where you should say a certain amount of discretion can be applied based on the circumstances

[2:50:41] Voice 5: of the and the context but that's

[2:50:45] Voice 11: what section trustee bolan that's what i was referring to

[2:50:49] Voice 11: is the fair investigative and that i would

[2:50:53] Voice 5: like to get to before

[2:50:54] Voice 11: the end of this meeting so that

[2:50:56] Voice 11: we can oh yeah so that's okay

[2:50:58] Voice 5: so you want to put in you want to put in the conduct there

[2:51:02] Voice 5: during that investigative approach okay fair enough yeah

[2:51:07] Voice 11: so i think that would cover off

[2:51:14] Voice 11: if everyone's in agreement.

[2:51:17] Voice 11: I think so,

[2:51:17] Trustee Patrick: but let's let Director Cermak speak for a moment,

[2:51:22] Trustee Patrick: then we can go back to cleaning that up.

[2:51:24] Trustee Patrick: Go ahead.

[2:51:24] Voice 4: Thank you, Chair.

[2:51:25] Voice 4: I just wanted to ask Trustee Elliott in terms of Section what is currently 3.6,

[2:51:30] Voice 4: where the officer should consider each person's unique circumstances,

[2:51:33] Voice 4: et cetera, all of 3.6.

[2:51:35] Voice 4: How does that relate to your question?

[2:51:36] Voice 4: It sounds like you're circling around a central idea.

[2:51:40] Voice 4: I'm just trying to understand from my personal notes how what you're talking about now relates

[2:51:45] Voice 4: to three sex well

[2:51:46] Voice 11: it so how it relates is the I'm going back to the ombudsperson's quick tips

[2:51:54] Voice 11: for exercising discretion and the second piece of that is to consider the specific circumstances of

[2:52:01] Voice 11: the case which we have outlined in this policy as um it was in three or it was in yeah six so what

[2:52:13] Voice 11: i would suggested is removing 3.6 and adding a new section after this one called investigative

[2:52:23] Voice 11: approach discretion and conduct of by law enforcement compliance officers and putting

[2:52:28] Voice 11: all of that there then we've got principles the standards of conduct the

[2:52:35] Voice 11: nonverbal communications active listening and then when determining

[2:52:39] Voice 11: appropriate and fair investigative approach and enforcement actions listing

[2:52:43] Voice 11: everything that's there so I do think it captures because discretion is both an

[2:52:50] Voice 11: approach and in policy in deciding how to prioritize so um that's where i was trying to

[2:53:01] Voice 11: knit it all together yeah

[2:53:06] Trustee Patrick: and i think the in the best practice guide there is that whole uh they

[2:53:10] Trustee Patrick: have a whole section on enforcement policy guidelines and accessory uh and a checklist so

[2:53:15] Trustee Patrick: it does show it's very broad it's not a one spot fits it but it's so yes it's all of those things

[2:53:36] Trustee Patrick: And I think alone, Director Cermak, just as parking things as we go forward and we talk about training and trustee training and all of that, this is an area of, I think, significant importance in helping trustees start the term on understanding what this is, all of bylaw enforcement, but in particular, how discretion plays.

[2:54:05] Trustee Patrick: Okay, so Trustee Elliott, why don't you work on your section here because we're going to, oh my gosh, we have five minutes, so we have to stop.

[2:54:13] Trustee Patrick: sorry should have looked at the clock um so let's deal with your section and then we'll recap back

[2:54:18] Trustee Patrick: to what rob's captured sure

[2:54:20] Voice 11: um so the only thing i added that's new and not in this draft policy

[2:54:30] Voice 11: um which i apologize for the length of it so i suggesting a new section after three before

[2:54:36] Voice 11: before Section 4, investigative approach, title to be determined, whatever, and conduct.

[2:54:43] Voice 11: And in this first one, this is the new part that's not in the draft bylaw, or draft bylaw,

[2:54:54] Voice 11: but the principles of accountability, impartiality, integrity, protection,

[2:54:59] Voice 11: respectfulness, and service, those are just some general principles to complement the

[2:55:06] Voice 11: The required skills, education, behavior, competencies listed in job profiles within the Oath of Employment, that part we've already seen.

[2:55:14] Voice 11: Then 4.2, yeah, that's already in there.

[2:55:22] Voice 11: So that's sort of how they will conduct themselves.

[2:55:24] Voice 11: Then 4.3 is the investigative approach to consider each person's unique circumstances.

[2:55:33] Voice 11: Which

[2:55:33] Trustee Patrick: is the old 3.6.

[2:55:35] Voice 11: Yeah.

[2:55:37] Voice 11: So it's pretty much everything except, like I said, that first one.

[2:55:41] Voice 11: And that was a suggestion of some local governments, you know, have these.

[2:55:46] Voice 11: And I thought these were, you know, generally good principles to uphold.

[2:55:55] Trustee Patrick: Thumbs up from everybody.

[2:55:56] Trustee Patrick: Nods.

[2:55:58] Trustee Patrick: Looking at.

[2:55:58] Trustee Patrick: Yep.

[2:56:00] Trustee Patrick: Good.

[2:56:02] Trustee Patrick: Trustee Boland, was yours captured?

[2:56:04] Trustee Patrick: I guess you sent that email off on your idea, so that went to Rob as well.

[2:56:08] Trustee Patrick: So we should probably go to the top of the table.

[2:56:10] Trustee Patrick: we should note that we got how far did we get we only got through um section six um all right

[2:56:23] Trustee Patrick: so let's review these so make sure we all are aware and then we're going to have to

[2:56:29] Trustee Patrick: structure a resolution so we're going back to adding the guiding principle yes the number

[2:56:47] Trustee Patrick: we were adding to principle number two everybody's thumbs up on that one and

[2:56:54] Trustee Patrick: explicit enough and staff i expect you to jump in and say i don't understand

[2:56:57] Trustee Patrick: that's as we go through this process or it needs clarity um so that we're not sending you off with

[2:57:04] Trustee Patrick: instructions that make no sense um when you were talking about moving oh moving up nine focus on

[2:57:12] Trustee Patrick: education and compliance move it up higher in the list um and we said add to guiding principle

[2:57:24] Trustee Patrick: principle three is that the existing guiding principle three procedural fairness right yes

[2:57:28] Trustee Patrick: so we should probably say

[2:57:30] Voice 5: that good catch need to be careful that

[2:57:33] Voice 5: we so

[2:57:34] Trustee Patrick: we should probably say

[2:57:34] Trustee Patrick: that procedural fairness yep uh guiding principle seven trust council endeavors

[2:57:46] Voice 5: um that was the discussion that we eventually covered off in a way um by adding that we should

[2:57:55] Voice 5: alert the local trust committees if there was a problem wasn't it we had a discussion that

[2:58:01] Voice 5: circled that

[2:58:02] Trustee Patrick: right we didn't finish this one was dealt with elsewhere so if we all agree this one

[2:58:07] Trustee Patrick: so number seven uh rob that has the yellow highlight should be removed that line

[2:58:11] Voice 11: i don't

[2:58:12] Voice 11: agree i think it's a good principle no i think it's a principle and then how it's enacted is

[2:58:18] Voice 11: you know okay policy okay you should keep them both

[2:58:22] Trustee Patrick: okay so we can just take returning for

[2:58:24] Trustee Patrick: further comment than off although i see robert's robert yes so

[2:58:31] Voice 7: as it's drafted now it says trust

[2:58:33] Voice 7: council endeavors to update and align its bylaws but wouldn't they be the local trust committee's

[2:58:39] Voice 7: bylaws yes and this policy can i guess encourage local trust committees or resource local trust

[2:58:47] Voice 7: committees to update their bylaws i

[2:58:53] Trustee Patrick: should absolutely be encouraged yeah because i think

[2:58:55] Trustee Patrick: this is or

[2:58:57] Voice 3: advocates to local trust committees i

[2:59:02] Voice 11: think local trust committees shall endeavor

[2:59:04] Voice 11: to update and align their bylaws like it's it's that's the work you know and we're going to try

[2:59:14] Voice 11: doesn't mean it's going to be so can we change trust council to local trust committees

[2:59:19] Voice 11: will endeavor shall endeavor or will attempt so

[2:59:25] Voice 7: it is a trust council policy so telling local

[2:59:29] Voice 7: trust committees what to do so

[2:59:31] Trustee Patrick: it's trust council are encouraged encourages local trust committees

[2:59:35] Trustee Patrick: too is that the word yeah can we make it any more there does that work for everybody thank you

[2:59:50] Trustee Patrick: everyone for asking clarity this is what this job was to do okay now we're on to

[2:59:56] Trustee Patrick: this rules and responsibilities section

[3:00:00] Trustee Patrick: lgcs are authorized to create and implement and to enforce ltc bylaws to enact and adopt bylaws

[3:00:06] Trustee Patrick: and ensure they reflect community values so uh i think it already says that doesn't it

[3:00:11] Trustee Patrick: um ensuring bylaws reflect community values so yeah that was already there so the first part

[3:00:18] Trustee Patrick: was to create the wording so i don't do

[3:00:21] Voice 5: we need i think

[3:00:22] Voice 5: robert got the gist of it and i i think

[3:00:24] Voice 5: keel do a good job won't you robert i

[3:00:28] Voice 11: think it needs refining but i can keep

[3:00:31] Voice 11: it with staff

[3:00:33] Voice 5: it's the second one rather than the first what

[3:00:38] Trustee Patrick: was the other way around first rather than the

[3:00:40] Trustee Patrick: second because we added the word create and implement that's the key things we added to

[3:00:46] Voice 5: enact i think is better than to create and implement to enact bylaws and ensure they

[3:00:51] Voice 5: reflect community values i would go for personally how

[3:00:57] Trustee Patrick: does everyone else do not enact instead of

[3:01:00] Trustee Patrick: create and implement i'm

[3:01:01] Voice 11: actually not sure about that word if if it's appropriate i would leave

[3:01:05] Voice 11: this wording with staff okay

[3:01:07] Trustee Patrick: so maybe put in i mean all of these i think we can make clear when

[3:01:13] Trustee Patrick: we structure the resolution that uh staffer to take this into account or something of that nature

[3:01:19] Trustee Patrick: we aren't the wordsmithers okay so roles and responsibilities so this is the uh trustees

[3:01:25] Trustee Patrick: represent so this is to add uh is this we were going to add a definition of trustees

[3:01:31] Trustee Patrick: was that what we had said the

[3:01:34] Voice 11: this was in reference to the manual

[3:01:38] Voice 11: above because we wanted to remove that liaison piece which was not really accurate and this

[3:01:45] Voice 11: was some suggested wording so i'd suggest we leave this manual piece till next time when we're

[3:01:53] Voice 11: right

[3:01:53] Trustee Patrick: so this isn't so we're not adding a definition of trustees

[3:01:58] Trustee Patrick: at this point okay so when we take this one out yeah

[3:02:03] Voice 11: yeah no the third one down where the cursor

[3:02:05] Trustee Patrick: is there add section okay yeah gotcha but the one above it we're taking that out for now from this

[3:02:11] Trustee Patrick: motion because it's not the policy exactly yeah so rob we'll just take that one out

[3:02:17] Trustee Patrick: save it for our next conversation next meeting okay so this is add the trustee section then the

[3:02:27] Trustee Patrick: next one is definitions and add a summary from 551 section three okay let's see if we remember

[3:02:36] Trustee Patrick: what this means folks oh

[3:02:39] Voice 5: determination letter and notice letter are discussed explicitly

[3:02:43] Voice 5: explicitly in the document so it was to add a definition of both of those yes

[3:02:49] Trustee Patrick: so then add

[3:02:50] Trustee Patrick: add a definition for those two items

[3:02:55] Voice 12: okay

[3:03:02] Trustee Patrick: policy objective this was to establish clear procedures

[3:03:08] Trustee Patrick: execution and standards for island stress bylaw compliance enforcement program very good all right

[3:03:28] Trustee Patrick: and then policy section two were we going to rename that section as well was

[3:03:43] Voice 5: that what we

[3:03:44] Voice 5: yes but actually once we split it into those driven by complaints and those driven by

[3:03:52] Voice 5: not complaints sorry i'm getting tired um it made more sense to leave it as it is in a way

[3:04:00] Voice 5: because i thought

[3:04:03] Voice 5: about it when i was drafting um the content that i proposed and i think the

[3:04:11] Voice 5: title began to make more sense but i i'm open to whatever anybody else thinks

[3:04:16] Trustee Patrick: everyone's beaten

[3:04:18] Trustee Patrick: they're not jumping up okay um so that brings us down to the next one of the

[3:04:25] Trustee Patrick: section two when a written complaint has not been received investigations may be initiated

[3:04:30] Trustee Patrick: so this was this was the one where we're splitting it into two yeah

[3:04:37] Voice 11: i think it was just that that

[3:04:39] Voice 11: it needs to be separated into two so that written complaints follow one tree and if it's not a

[3:04:46] Voice 11: written complaint it follows another correct add the wording investigations may be initiated by

[3:04:52] Voice 11: bylaw compliance and enforcement officers just provides clarity of who's doing the investigating

[3:04:59] Voice 11: Rob, did you get that?

[3:05:01] Voice 5: Yeah, I think

[3:05:01] Voice 5: the two lines at the bottom of the page we don't need because they're replaced.

[3:05:06] Voice 5: I think they're replaced by the top of the table on the next page.

[3:05:13] Voice 5: Am I right in saying that?

[3:05:15] Voice 5: They were written on the fly.

[3:05:17] Voice 5: And then this is the kind of final draft of responding to those two items.

[3:05:24] Voice 8: Yes, through the chair.

[3:05:25] Voice 5: That's correct.

[3:05:26] Voice 8: Trustee Boland followed up with an email.

[3:05:28] Voice 8: and so I've got the

[3:05:30] Voice 8: body of that in this section here.

[3:05:32] Trustee Patrick: All right.

[3:05:33] Trustee Patrick: So then you'll delete those above too?

[3:05:36] Voice 11: Sorry, before you do that,

[3:05:39] Voice 11: could you add the wording of the second box up

[3:05:45] Voice 11: when a written complaint has not been received?

[3:05:46] Voice 11: Yes, that wording should go down in the table below.

[3:05:54] Voice 11: It's there in the two-two.

[3:05:56] Voice 11: No, it's not because that's changes that I suggested.

[3:06:02] Voice 11: yeah by bylaw yeah okay okay just make

[3:06:07] Voice 11: sure who's initiating the investigation thanks good work

[3:06:11] Trustee Patrick: folks yeah yeah good

[3:06:13] Voice 5: point yeah

[3:06:13] Voice 11: well now you can

[3:06:14] Voice 5: take those two off okay and i i think the

[3:06:21] Voice 5: title makes sense um if anybody wants to um suggest an alternative i'm fine but with that

[3:06:35] Trustee Patrick: Okay. So let's scroll down past that big box. And the next one is section 3.6 is create that as a separate section, which there you have that reference.

[3:06:52] Trustee Patrick: So I think we can just leave that alone because it goes back there. So that's fine. To all. I like that capitalization. Respondent and plain it with view and standardize. That's fine.

[3:07:08] Trustee Patrick: section three bylaw enforcement teams are encouraged to proactively report problematic

[3:07:15] Trustee Patrick: inconsistent or contentious bylaws to local trust committees for review staff give direction

[3:07:22] Trustee Patrick: capture the notion of their words so i think that was fine uh and i think uh staff that's

[3:07:28] Trustee Patrick: make sure that you have that discretion to out um for one see section four two in place

[3:07:36] Trustee Patrick: place. Oh, okay. This is, yes. So this is just making that reference. That's understood

[3:07:55] Trustee Patrick: by everybody. And then this is the new 3.6, is that whole one we just went through. There's

[3:08:07] Trustee Patrick: some numbering errors in there, but that's fine. You'll see those. Section 5. This is

[3:08:19] Trustee Patrick: again just throughout the entire section cleaning up that title um you're just capturing um that's

[3:08:36] Trustee Patrick: fine we can leave number even though we didn't get to section 10 we'll just leave that for now

[3:08:40] Trustee Patrick: i think we all agreed on the screening officer one section six requires review with regard to

[3:08:46] Trustee Patrick: suggested investigative approach section did we talk about section six

[3:08:53] Voice 5: we've done that it was

[3:08:55] Voice 5: Did we ask for a definition?

[3:08:58] Voice 5: Discretion, yes.

[3:09:03] Trustee Patrick: Suggested.

[3:09:05] Trustee Patrick: Oh, there's discretion.

[3:09:08] Trustee Patrick: That's the last one, added definition of discretion.

[3:09:11] Trustee Patrick: But section six, what did we summarize on?

[3:09:23] Trustee Patrick: There's some

[3:09:25] Voice 11: review needed, but I think it should just be called priority of investigation.

[3:09:31] Voice 11: litigation um i think discretion is dealt with through that new section that's a

[3:09:40] Trustee Patrick: good idea yeah

[3:09:41] Voice 5: yeah

[3:09:42] Voice 2: i would agree with that yeah

[3:09:44] Trustee Patrick: well looking at other municipal bylaws that's how they deal

[3:09:49] Trustee Patrick: with it they don't have a section called discretion it's and if you look at the

[3:09:53] Trustee Patrick: checklist from best practices it applies throughout the entire document yeah and it's

[3:09:58] Trustee Patrick: It's a training. I think that's why I said it's a training to everyone to understand what discretion means and how it shows up.

[3:10:07] Voice 5: So it's a behavior almost that should imbue the entire process and how you deal with things.

[3:10:16] Voice 5: Well,

[3:10:19] Voice 11: it's also a balanced weighing out of options, which we've already said is, you know, is it in the public interest that's exercising discretion, a minor infraction.

[3:10:29] Voice 11: So those are all examples of discretion. I think it doesn't just fit this.

[3:10:35] Voice 11: Exactly.

[3:10:35] Voice 11: It

[3:10:36] Trustee Patrick: doesn't fit one section.

[3:10:39] Trustee Patrick: Okay, so we need an introductory motion. Is everyone generally agreeing? Are we okay with just a full motion here to deal with all of this?

[3:10:47] Trustee Patrick: So staff help us. We're going to we're on the fly wordsmithing here that this regional planning committee is requesting staff to make the following changes to the bylaw compliance and enforcement draft bylaw compliance and enforcement policy.

[3:11:13] Trustee Patrick: see yeah as documented january

[3:11:16] Voice 11: 20th notes yeah

[3:11:18] Trustee Patrick: yeah

[3:11:18] Voice 5: um can i just ask and it's just i don't want

[3:11:22] Voice 5: to make things more complicated but the version we were given did we have to adopt that version

[3:11:29] Voice 5: before we applied these amendments to it no because it's a

[3:11:33] Voice 5: draft we're working in draft

[3:11:37] Trustee Patrick: um and

[3:11:38] Voice 5: we're not done

[3:11:39] Trustee Patrick: so um this is um all right so rob did you capture a motion or the attempt of

[3:11:48] Trustee Patrick: introducing this let's all take a look at it before anyone moves in seconds to make sure

[3:11:57] Trustee Patrick: we're happy with the language my staff to make the following changes yep

[3:12:04] Voice 5: i will read it out if

[3:12:07] Voice 5: you want uh

[3:12:08] Trustee Patrick: well i think it looks like i think sam beat you to it okay

[3:12:12] Voice 5: i

[3:12:13] Voice 2: yeah i'm not not fast

[3:12:16] Voice 2: sure i'll uh uh i move that the regional planning committee request staff to make the following

[3:12:22] Voice 2: changes to the bylaw and compliance enforcement draft trust council policy 5.5.1 as documented

[3:12:28] Voice 2: in the notes of the january 20th 2025 regional planning committee meeting

[3:12:33] Trustee Patrick: seconded by david graham

[3:12:36] Trustee Patrick: trustee Graham sorry any discussion call the vote then all those in favor you can raise your digital

[3:12:47] Trustee Patrick: hand or your whole hand or your right looks like that's everybody so lower your hand I don't think

[3:12:56] Trustee Patrick: anyone was opposed when I was opposed so so that carries okay next steps we're not done so I'm

[3:13:06] Trustee Patrick: I'm going to look to Director Cermak for suggestions here

[3:13:08] Trustee Patrick: as to how we are going to finish.

[3:13:16] Voice 4: Okay.

[3:13:17] Voice 4: So you have a meeting coming up February, what is it, February 7th.

[3:13:22] Voice 4: The deadline for the agenda is January 31st.

[3:13:25] Voice 4: That's 11 days from now with a very busy schedule in between now and then.

[3:13:29] Voice 4: I think we'll do our best to capture those changes

[3:13:32] Voice 4: that you recommended today into that.

[3:13:34] Voice 4: but at bare minimum we'll just put this back on your agenda and you can pick up right from where

[3:13:39] Voice 4: you left off and we can go from there if we're not able to get to the if we don't prioritize

[3:13:43] Voice 4: making these amendments on the fly if you know what i mean in between now and then this will

[3:13:48] Voice 4: come back on your agenda for sure you have a interesting agenda coming before you in february

[3:13:54] Voice 4: chair patrick you and i haven't had a chance to talk about what's coming up

[3:13:57] Voice 4: but for the benefit of the group i'll say what i see so far you may have a couple business cases

[3:14:02] Voice 4: just small things to keep things the lights on type thing and as recognizing that this program

[3:14:08] Voice 4: is going longer than expected we may need money for legal review we may need some software for

[3:14:13] Voice 4: fresh water this project of course is front and center to a lot of work that's going on and it's

[3:14:18] Voice 4: a trust council priority you have a couple updates and the housing action plan for example we have a

[3:14:24] Voice 4: housing needs report update i'm not sure what we're going to say about the tiny homes and wheels

[3:14:28] Voice 4: I was going to turn to trustee Elliot about that. And that's it.

[3:14:32] Voice 4: So it's kind of a bunch of light updates, a few housekeeping issues and this.

[3:14:38] Voice 4: So it's we'll make the changes if we can,

[3:14:41] Voice 4: but otherwise we'll just pick up at section six, as you said,

[3:14:43] Voice 4: and we'll go from there. You'll have a, how many hours do we have there?

[3:14:47] Voice 4: It's 10 till three. So you have more time, doesn't, but you know,

[3:14:52] Voice 4: you have more work to do. Right. So, but I think you get into the bulk of it.

[3:14:56] Voice 4: I think this is the critical work is 551.

[3:14:58] Voice 4: So that's what I propose, Chair Patrick.

[3:15:01] Voice 4: I'm happy to take any guidance if you'd like to do it elsewhere.

[3:15:06] Trustee Patrick: Oh, that's good.

[3:15:06] Trustee Patrick: And I just encourage trustees to have their notes written up as best they can for the

[3:15:11] Trustee Patrick: next meeting so we can be as succinct as possible for finishing this.

[3:15:17] Trustee Patrick: And I see Trustee Elliott's hand raised.

[3:15:19] Voice 11: Yeah, on that note, Rob, could you circulate the table?

[3:15:25] Voice 11: because what i think could happen is those of us who are more inclined to wordsmith we could now

[3:15:32] Voice 11: look at the um the manual and say okay what needs to be changed according to the draft policy that

[3:15:39] Voice 11: we've just done so we could do some of that work in advance so we're not just painfully going

[3:15:44] Voice 11: through what is that that thing is 20 pages long this manual so let's do some pre-work uh bring

[3:15:51] Voice 11: suggested changes um and we can easily align like the roles and responsibilities and stuff like that

[3:15:59] Voice 11: so um that'd be great if we could have that work thanks right

[3:16:06] Trustee Patrick: just in case you thought you had

[3:16:07] Trustee Patrick: nothing to do on these cold winter nights okay uh then i think we are well out of time i'll go

[3:16:14] Trustee Patrick: ahead director sir mac sir

[3:16:15] Voice 4: one more thing um just want to let you know that the on the project

[3:16:19] Voice 4: library online is up to date thank you uh to rob i appreciate mr croker and including the uh the

[3:16:27] Voice 4: bylaw uh the ombudsperson's report that you were circulating so you should be able to should be

[3:16:32] Voice 4: one-stop shopping for you there good

[3:16:33] Trustee Patrick: thank you very much because i was hunting for that online

[3:16:36] Trustee Patrick: last week and couldn't find it so other than back in the agenda package so good

[3:16:41] Trustee Patrick: okay then we are at the end of our time so um i assume there's a move to adjourned and i'll take

[3:16:48] Trustee Patrick: David's hand waving as that motion to adjourn and by consent we will adjourn the meeting and

[3:16:55] Trustee Patrick: we'll see you on February 7th so thank you everyone thanks

[3:17:00] Voice 5: everyone bye thank you thanks