Salt Spring Island Local Trust Committee regular meeting, December 8, 2022

[0:00:08] Good

[0:00:24] Trustee Luckham: morning Council and good morning members of the public, thank you for joining us today

[0:00:32] Trustee Luckham: day three of our December Council meeting orientation session.

[0:00:40] Trustee Luckham: I'm grateful to be here in Lgonkwin Territory the last few days at the southern tip of what

[0:00:50] Trustee Luckham: I think of as the Coast Salish Sea and of course Coast Salish Territory.

[0:00:56] Trustee Luckham: It's a pleasure to be here.

[0:00:59] Trustee Luckham: As I reflect on my opportunity to live here, I like to consider all of the aspects of the rich culture and history on this coast.

[0:01:13] Trustee Luckham: much of it enlightening and also a significant portion of it having a history that is difficult

[0:01:25] Trustee Luckham: to reconcile I think is probably the issue but just to

[0:01:33] Trustee Luckham: always want to be cognizant of

[0:01:34] Trustee Luckham: the people that have been here since time immemorial and it hasn't been an easy journey

[0:01:41] Trustee Luckham: journey the last 150 years. So thank you everybody for being here. I'm just going to quickly do a

[0:01:49] Trustee Luckham: roll call, give you a chance to wave and see who's here. I'm going to start with this new

[0:01:56] Trustee Luckham: alphabetical list that was suggested by Deb Morrison the other day. I think it's a great

[0:02:01] Trustee Luckham: idea. Bowen Island, Judith Getty, Sue Ellen Fast, Bowen Island also, thank you. Denman Island,

[0:02:11] Trustee Luckham: Sam Borthwick and David Graham saw David waving. We have Sam here. There he is. Thank you. A shout

[0:02:22] Trustee Luckham: out if you can, that saves me having to look up, although I enjoy seeing you. Toby Elliott and

[0:02:29] Trustee Luckham: Susan Yates. Hello. Yes. Hello.

[0:02:32] Voice 21: Toby here. Good

[0:02:33] Trustee Luckham: morning. Galeano Island, Lisa Gaborow and Ben

[0:02:37] Trustee Luckham: maverly here uh

[0:02:40] Voice 3: good morning trustees on

[0:02:42] Trustee Luckham: gambier island joe bernardo and kate louis stamford

[0:02:45] Trustee Luckham: good morning

[0:02:46] Voice 5: from the shell nation today thank

[0:02:51] Trustee Luckham: you for being in the shelf um that's great uh hornby

[0:02:56] Trustee Luckham: island alan and scott at the moment okay um the ski island michaela leroni and tim peterson

[0:03:08] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:11] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:13] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:14] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:15] Trustee Luckham: Main Island.

[0:03:15] Trustee Luckham: Jeanine Dodds and David Maag.

[0:03:17] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:18] Voice 20: I'm here.

[0:03:19] Voice 20: Beautiful day.

[0:03:20] Voice 20: The sun is shining.

[0:03:22] Trustee Luckham: Excellent.

[0:03:22] Trustee Luckham: Good news.

[0:03:23] Trustee Luckham: And I see David Maag.

[0:03:24] Trustee Luckham: Good morning from

[0:03:25] Voice 7: Main Island.

[0:03:26] Trustee Luckham: From North Pender Island, Erin Campbell and Deb Morrison.

[0:03:31] Voice 16: Present.

[0:03:32] Trustee Luckham: Hi.

[0:03:32] Trustee Luckham: Good morning from Staeus.

[0:03:34] Trustee Luckham: Good morning to both of you.

[0:03:37] Trustee Luckham: Salt Spring Island, Jamie Harris and Laura Patrick.

[0:03:40] Trustee Luckham: Good morning.

[0:03:41] Trustee Luckham: good morning good

[0:03:43] Trustee Patrick: morning it's laura and i'm on salt spring and the sun is not shining

[0:03:48] Trustee Luckham: uh all good things will come um so that's great thank you uh saturn island uh uh is

[0:03:56] Trustee Luckham: marie boland and lee middleton uh

[0:04:01] Voice 23: good morning it's not shining at east point on saturn either

[0:04:05] Voice 23: either. Okay.

[0:04:07] Trustee Luckham: Did I see Lee in there? Okay. I saw Pender, Dan Falk, and Christine Evans.

[0:04:21] Trustee Luckham: Good morning. Hi.

[0:04:23] Voice 22: It's really hot in Texas, so the sun is shining.

[0:04:28] Trustee Luckham: Okay. Long distance today.

[0:04:31] Trustee Luckham: Thank you for joining us.

[0:04:33] Trustee Luckham: This is Ken Hunter and, of course, myself.

[0:04:40] Trustee Luckham: I don't see Ken there.

[0:04:42] Trustee Luckham: Okay, so that's great.

[0:04:46] Trustee Luckham: We do have regrets from Grant Scott, who's not been able to join us the last few days,

[0:04:51] Trustee Luckham: and I'm hoping that the others will join us shortly.

[0:04:56] Trustee Luckham: So I'm not going to go over the rest of the agenda for today because I want to immediately

[0:05:00] Trustee Luckham: get to Ellie Mina, who is joining us today for the orientation session. And we will go over the

[0:05:07] Trustee Luckham: remainder of the agenda before we launch into this after his presentation. I am going to suggest that

[0:05:13] Trustee Luckham: you anticipate that we might run a bit longer, because there's a number of items remaining from

[0:05:18] Trustee Luckham: the last two days. And so just keep that in mind as you're making plans for the remainder of your

[0:05:23] Trustee Luckham: your day. So I want to, I'll turn it over to CEO Hopson-Piller, but I just want to welcome

[0:05:29] Trustee Luckham: Ellie Mina for joining us once again. Over the years, I've had the pleasure of sitting in on

[0:05:35] Trustee Luckham: these sessions. And I must say, Ellie, that your wisdom is used every day and has incredibly

[0:05:43] Trustee Luckham: valuable and made it a lot easier for me to negotiate the complexities of being a chair.

[0:05:49] Trustee Luckham: So thank you very much, sir, for joining us today. Over to Russ Hopson-Piller.

[0:05:52] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, Chair Luckom, and good morning

[0:05:54] Voice 7: to Trust Council.

[0:05:57] Voice 7: Indeed, this is the continuation of our orientation at the start of our term, and it's my pleasure

[0:06:03] Voice 7: to introduce our speaker for today, Elimina.

[0:06:06] Voice 7: I mean, arguably, you could call him perhaps the busiest man in the province right now,

[0:06:10] Voice 7: with all of the local governments coming together and establishing how they want to govern,

[0:06:17] Voice 7: how they want to have discussions, and just in our conversations.

[0:06:21] Voice 7: I know he's been all over the province, and we're lucky to have him join us.

[0:06:26] Voice 7: Elie Mina is a Vancouver-based board effectiveness consultant and registered parliamentarian.

[0:06:31] Voice 7: He specializes in board effectiveness, demystifying the rules of order, chairing tough meetings,

[0:06:36] Voice 7: preventing and dealing with disputes and boardroom problems, and minute-taking standards.

[0:06:42] Voice 7: Elie's been in this business since 1984.

[0:06:44] Voice 7: His clients come from local governments, school boards, regulatory bodies, First Nations

[0:06:49] Voice 7: communities credit unions and the nonprofit sector he is the author of five published books

[0:06:56] Voice 7: 101 board problems is sitting on our table right here just to my left and in his presentation today

[0:07:04] Voice 7: he's going to help us demystify the rules of order and use them in a way that achieves equal

[0:07:09] Voice 7: engagement of participants in debate effective time management and informed decision making

[0:07:15] Voice 7: This training is foundational to you and your local trust committee and trust committee work, and is something that we can build upon over the next two, three, and four years.

[0:07:29] Voice 7: I'll point you to your agenda package. There's 14 pages, pages 277 to 290, or item 8.6, which is Robert's Rules and Responsible Governance.

[0:07:41] Voice 7: And with that, I will welcome Mr. Mina.

[0:07:44] Voice 7: And it's good to see you, sir.

[0:07:46] Voice 7: And I'll turn the group over to you.

[0:07:47] Voice 30: And thank you very much, both, Chair and Ross.

[0:07:52] Voice 30: I really appreciate the warm and enthusiastic introduction.

[0:07:58] Voice 30: Sitting up front, we have a busy agenda.

[0:08:01] Voice 30: I usually do the session over a day, but we will contain as much as possible within the

[0:08:07] Voice 30: available time.

[0:08:08] Voice 30: It's wonderful to be with you.

[0:08:10] Voice 30: I had a bit of an anxious moment yesterday being stuck in the crime book airport trying

[0:08:15] Voice 30: to get out and the flight was delayed and I was supposed to make a quick connection

[0:08:19] Voice 30: in Calgary and I was wasn't sure I could make it back home to where I'm set up to be here

[0:08:25] Voice 30: on zoom but everything worked in the end so that's a good good news story pleased to be

[0:08:32] Voice 30: with you again it's been several times that I did have shared my observations about meetings

[0:08:39] Voice 30: about rules of order, about effective governance.

[0:08:42] Voice 30: This is a wonderful field to be in.

[0:08:45] Voice 30: It's so interesting.

[0:08:46] Voice 30: It keeps on evolving in as much as I've been doing it

[0:08:50] Voice 30: for now close to 40 years.

[0:08:53] Voice 30: I still am in a learner position.

[0:08:56] Voice 30: Every time I do something, every time I teach something,

[0:08:59] Voice 30: I learn a few more things.

[0:09:00] Voice 30: So, and I would think this should be your disposition

[0:09:04] Voice 30: for taking the role of a trustee,

[0:09:06] Voice 30: wanting to be learning as you make complex decisions on behalf of the communities that

[0:09:12] Voice 30: you serve. So again, nice to be with you. And just to tell you what my goal is, my goal is to share

[0:09:20] Voice 30: as many ideas and as many tools as possible that will enable you to participate effectively in

[0:09:27] Voice 30: meetings to make judicious, thoughtful, informed decisions for the communities that you serve. And

[0:09:34] Voice 30: there's quite a few of you quite a few of your communities so i think the idea is to make your

[0:09:40] Voice 30: next four years more productive and more effective producing good results good decisions for the

[0:09:47] Voice 30: for the communities in difficult times nowadays we have several challenges that society is facing

[0:09:56] Voice 30: several challenges that the world is facing including the biggest one

[0:10:00] Voice 30: and global warming the pandemic is also a little bit here maybe not as much as it was over the past

[0:10:08] Voice 30: few years some things that have have not been part of our lives and so they challenging us

[0:10:16] Voice 30: and they challenging your communities and it's safe to say that the level of anxiety today

[0:10:22] Voice 30: compared to what it was in 2018 in the previous election is quite a bit higher and people look

[0:10:29] Voice 30: to you their elected leaders to provide that to be that shining light that there is hope

[0:10:34] Voice 30: and that there is confidence that elected officials are going to look after the interest

[0:10:40] Voice 30: of the communities of today and the community of tomorrow i just start to think about the

[0:10:46] Voice 30: objective it's always good to remember the object of the trust and i just picked the

[0:10:52] Voice 30: from the file the islands trust act the legislation that governs you what it says it's always

[0:11:00] Voice 30: something we need to keep in mind for the citizens and the communities that we serve

[0:11:06] Voice 30: the object of the trust the islands trust is to preserve and to protect the trust area

[0:11:12] Voice 30: in its unique amenities environment the benefit of the residents of the trust area and of

[0:11:18] Voice 30: of British Columbia generally in cooperation

[0:11:21] Voice 30: with municipalities, regional district,

[0:11:23] Voice 30: improvement districts, other persons and organizations

[0:11:26] Voice 30: and the government of British Columbia.

[0:11:29] Voice 30: I'm noting as I'm looking at the language,

[0:11:32] Voice 30: it says for the benefit of the residents

[0:11:34] Voice 30: of the trust area in British Columbia,

[0:11:37] Voice 30: it does not say necessarily today's residents.

[0:11:41] Voice 30: So here it is from a governance perspective,

[0:11:44] Voice 30: we need to think not only of the citizens of today,

[0:11:46] Voice 30: day, but also the citizens of tomorrow, people who will be here years down the road and could

[0:11:53] Voice 30: be affected by the decisions that you make over the next four years.

[0:11:57] Voice 30: So I think that's the governance that we need to think of.

[0:12:00] Voice 30: For example, thinking about four years down the road, when you look in the rearview mirror

[0:12:05] Voice 30: and ask in 2022, what have been our accomplishments over this term of office?

[0:12:11] Voice 30: And you look at it with that lens today, and you say, well, here is what we need to do over the next four years to achieve that kind of impression that the citizens would have.

[0:12:22] Voice 30: And so that's just food for thought to consider what the governance needs to look like at an elevated level.

[0:12:30] Voice 30: Always think about the citizens and also the – here it is.

[0:12:35] Voice 30: It says the resident.

[0:12:38] Voice 30: I'm chuckling here because it does not say the human resident

[0:12:42] Voice 30: because you have, in addition to the human resident,

[0:12:45] Voice 30: we have the environment, we have the animal,

[0:12:47] Voice 30: we have the wildlife, we have the fish,

[0:12:50] Voice 30: we have the environment that is affected

[0:12:53] Voice 30: by the decision that you make.

[0:12:55] Voice 30: And they don't have voices, they don't have votes.

[0:12:58] Voice 30: And so, yet, they need to be there in front of you

[0:13:02] Voice 30: and your thoughts as you make those decisions.

[0:13:04] Voice 30: and you need to think not only about today but also years down the road the impact of the decisions

[0:13:09] Voice 30: that you make i know that um when i speak like that i'm thinking about one setting where they

[0:13:15] Voice 30: uh the elected officials decided just so that they constantly get reminded it is not only about the

[0:13:22] Voice 30: citizens who have voices and have votes it's also about those who and those entities didn't know so

[0:13:29] Voice 30: So what they sometimes, in one occasion, they said that they put empty chairs in chambers, and they would put a sign, this seat is reserved for future generations.

[0:13:41] Voice 30: This seat is reserved for the animals.

[0:13:44] Voice 30: This seat is reserved for the wildlife.

[0:13:46] Voice 30: And so just so we keep on thinking about them as we make decisions, today we also think about the people, the entities that don't have voices, that don't have votes.

[0:13:55] Voice 30: And in the absence of those reminders, we can forget it or cannot pay as much attention as we should.

[0:14:04] Voice 30: So anyway, that's a bit of an opening.

[0:14:07] Voice 30: The goal is by the end of the day, by the end of the presentation, and I'm giving until 11.45,

[0:14:13] Voice 30: to give you as much food for thought and as many tools and ideas so that you can work effectively as an individual trustee.

[0:14:22] Voice 30: And the word trustee is quite big.

[0:14:25] Voice 30: You need to be trusted, act in a manner that can be trusted by the citizens of today, the citizens of tomorrow, and everything that's affected by the decisions that you make.

[0:14:37] Voice 30: So just food for thought.

[0:14:39] Voice 30: Trustee is quite a profound word.

[0:14:41] Voice 30: So the goal is to give you the tools so you can have good meetings.

[0:14:46] Voice 30: That's my expertise.

[0:14:47] Voice 30: I specialize in parliamentary procedures, so we look at having good meetings, ones that engage you, engage you in the conversation,

[0:14:54] Voice 30: engage your input, the brainpower that exists in the room,

[0:14:59] Voice 30: that manages time effectively in meetings so that we spend it wisely,

[0:15:04] Voice 30: and that achieves informed decisions.

[0:15:08] Voice 30: Now, okay, so let me just go through the slides a bit.

[0:15:12] Voice 30: The title of the course, by the way, is Robert's Rules and Responsible Governance.

[0:15:16] Voice 30: I checked your procedure by law and actually did not find explicit reference to Robert's Rules of Order,

[0:15:21] Voice 30: But the extent to which we will use it is limited to the extent that it is pragmatic and applicable to your meetings.

[0:15:29] Voice 30: So it should be OK. And so let me just a brief introduction.

[0:15:34] Voice 30: I told you about my name. It's pronounced as Ellie. And if you call me Eli, I promise I will not get insulted.

[0:15:41] Voice 30: There's other variations that are less flattering. So let's ignore them.

[0:15:45] Voice 30: My occupation is, I'm a self-employed parliamentarian, means that I work with a book

[0:15:50] Voice 30: on Robert's Rules of Order and other books on parliamentary procedure to help my clients use

[0:15:57] Voice 30: them in a way that is pragmatic, effective, and enables them to achieve the decision that they

[0:16:04] Voice 30: need to make as a good, healthy democracy. So you have a big democracy here. It's a larger assembly

[0:16:11] Voice 30: than the one i was working with yesterday we only had uh 10 people yesterday in this case you have

[0:16:17] Voice 30: as many i believe as 26 and that's a large group and if you think about your council meeting and

[0:16:25] Voice 30: if you want to say we want to benefit from the wisdom that's available to us in the room and

[0:16:30] Voice 30: suppose all of you wanted to speak that will take time and so the question is how do we manage the

[0:16:38] Voice 30: meetings well so that we don't get so late in a meeting that we're tired that we are impatient

[0:16:45] Voice 30: so my challenge to you each of you over the next four years as you speak in debate

[0:16:51] Voice 30: seek to contain your comments within i would think normally two minutes you can say a lot in two

[0:16:57] Voice 30: minutes and yet in some settings when i observe council meetings or regional board meetings and

[0:17:03] Voice 30: and I give them feedback afterwards.

[0:17:05] Voice 30: I see a presentation or speeches made by elected officials

[0:17:09] Voice 30: and they sometimes go as high as five minutes,

[0:17:12] Voice 30: sometimes even seven, eight, nine, 10 minutes.

[0:17:15] Voice 30: And the math is very simple.

[0:17:17] Voice 30: The more people talk like that and take a lot of time,

[0:17:21] Voice 30: take 10 minutes to say something they could say in two,

[0:17:24] Voice 30: the less time there is to talk about the issues

[0:17:27] Voice 30: in a deep and effective way.

[0:17:29] Voice 30: and the less time the less capacity there is in the brains to listen and to learn

[0:17:36] Voice 30: late in the meeting because we are just tired we're just not listening anymore

[0:17:40] Voice 30: and so we need to look at time management as being very critical in how we conduct ourselves during

[0:17:46] Voice 30: meeting again my challenge even if you have something significant to say try to contain

[0:17:52] Voice 30: it in a limited time so you make enough time available for other trustees to share their input

[0:17:58] Voice 30: and their wisdom so you can learn from them as well occupation parliamentarian i sometimes chair

[0:18:04] Voice 30: meetings from my clients and my clients come from local governments board of education first nations

[0:18:11] Voice 30: unions non-profit organizations and other organizations that need help with their

[0:18:16] Voice 30: democracy making the democracy work better and to an extent robert's rules of order helps

[0:18:22] Voice 30: and as you will find out from my presentation there there is an extent to which robert's rules

[0:18:28] Voice 30: water is no help at all and it can in fact muddy the water and cause a meeting to

[0:18:34] Voice 30: reach almost a paralysis mode because they're not used effectively so effectiveness is not a

[0:18:39] Voice 30: word that is explicitly mentioned in robert's rule of order as a goal it just talks about

[0:18:45] Voice 30: the rights of individuals to speak to participate to vote that becomes mainly entitlement focused

[0:18:50] Voice 30: as opposed to what is the duties the duty to share the decision-making process and make

[0:18:57] Voice 30: good decisions brief introduction of me uh also introducing our own r12 is robert through the

[0:19:03] Voice 30: water and you revise the 12th edition this is what the book looks like if you can see this

[0:19:10] Voice 30: robert rules the 12th edition and the man robert his first name henry martin robert was born in

[0:19:17] Voice 30: 1837, died in 1923. The first edition of the book came up in 1876 and now it's 146 years later.

[0:19:30] Voice 30: The first edition of the book was 176 pages and today as a result of the authors keeping on

[0:19:38] Voice 30: adding and adding and adding, instead of being 176, switch the 7 and the 1, it becomes 716 or

[0:19:49] Voice 30: 17 pages. Huge in terms of volume. I can tell you frankly, in my work, if I use 1% of it in a

[0:19:57] Voice 30: meeting, that's a lot. And I would think that in your work too, you need to consider this book as

[0:20:02] Voice 30: a means to an end but not as an end in itself uh i've seen organizations in my own organization

[0:20:09] Voice 30: the parliamentarians organizations in our own meetings we sometimes get into total paralysis

[0:20:14] Voice 30: mode even though all of us are parliamentarians but because people introduce amendments amendments

[0:20:20] Voice 30: to the amendments it gets to be quite interesting from a parliamentary perspective but very very

[0:20:26] Voice 30: very, very slow. We get very little done in the amount of time that we have, and we meet

[0:20:31] Voice 30: for three days in conventions every two years. The authors of the book, Henry, Henry Martin

[0:20:38] Voice 30: Robert, Burke Boltz, Daniel Siebold, Daniel Honeman, and then Shmuel Gerber, and the organization

[0:20:46] Voice 30: that they all support them are NAP, the National Association of Parliamentarians, and the last

[0:20:51] Voice 30: thing on the list is the american institute of parliamentarians and a member i'm a member of

[0:20:55] Voice 30: both i had to write exam to become a registered member let me just see what's next am i greeted

[0:21:02] Voice 30: with enthusiasm and the answer is not always uh sometimes people treat my work with cynicism and

[0:21:09] Voice 30: contempt so here is council charlie and what he said at the beginning of a workshop he had his

[0:21:15] Voice 30: hand up and i said uh what would you like and he said um something you need to know and i have a

[0:21:23] Voice 30: hearing aid and i said shall i raise my voice shall i enunciate so you don't miss even one

[0:21:29] Voice 30: word he said no no no just give us a signal when you're about to tell us a joke so i can turn it

[0:21:35] Voice 30: on so i tried my best but i don't know if i pleased him or not uh let's skip magician interest

[0:21:42] Voice 30: of time. Let's skip to the third line. This is a good news. A participant approached me at the end

[0:21:49] Voice 30: of a training session for non-profit leaders, non-profit organizations leaders, and she said

[0:21:55] Voice 30: after that workshop, an evening workshop for three hours about meetings, rules, and good

[0:22:00] Voice 30: decision making, she said, I want to thank you. She said, what I learned in this workshop, and I'm

[0:22:06] Voice 30: thinking about my own board of directors, which consists of some very strong, animated, assertive

[0:22:12] Voice 30: individual, they have been begging me to run to be the chair of the board and I told them I cannot

[0:22:18] Voice 30: do that. To manage a group this animated and this assertive and this basically enthusiastic,

[0:22:25] Voice 30: we need someone with a loud voice and I have a very soft voice. And she said what I learned in

[0:22:31] Voice 30: this course is a loud voice is not a prerequisite. All I need is my best friend by my side,

[0:22:38] Voice 30: my best friend being the process you see at the fourth line you've got a friend

[0:22:44] Voice 30: the process is its name what do I mean by that process is how we conduct the

[0:22:50] Voice 30: business and we don't need to have 716 17 pages of rules we just need the

[0:22:56] Voice 30: essence of what the process is to support us during meetings and so this

[0:23:01] Voice 30: is a series of phrases that I use in terms of supporting the process and I'll

[0:23:07] Voice 30: explain how those words will become super significant when we think about your meetings

[0:23:12] Voice 30: especially when you have difficult conversations on complex and controversial issues how do you

[0:23:19] Voice 30: conduct those conversations without attacking each other make and producing the informed decision

[0:23:27] Voice 30: that you need to make so process is a big word and i would hope that by the end of the morning

[0:23:33] Voice 30: you will embrace that idea of the following five sentences.

[0:23:38] Voice 30: Here it is.

[0:23:39] Voice 30: The process is your best friend.

[0:23:42] Voice 30: Learn how it works.

[0:23:43] Voice 30: I'll teach you this morning at least the essence of it.

[0:23:47] Voice 30: Learn how the process is and follow it as a trustee.

[0:23:50] Voice 30: Follow it because you want to, not because someone has a gavel as a chair

[0:23:54] Voice 30: and taps the gavel and asks you to.

[0:23:58] Voice 30: C, ensure that other people understand how the process works

[0:24:02] Voice 30: and follow it because they want to.

[0:24:06] Voice 30: So those other people who need to know the process are you,

[0:24:10] Voice 30: all the 26 members of the council and others,

[0:24:14] Voice 30: as well as the general public who sometimes are present in a meeting

[0:24:18] Voice 30: when you invited input and they resort to behaviors

[0:24:21] Voice 30: that are completely unacceptable unless the process is explained

[0:24:25] Voice 30: at the beginning of a meeting.

[0:24:27] Voice 30: And, for example, if the chair at the start of a big meeting

[0:24:31] Voice 30: emotions are running high, anxiety about the issue that's being discussed.

[0:24:35] Voice 30: And it can become quite rocky and sometimes toxic because people are afraid to go to a microphone and speak.

[0:24:43] Voice 30: Let's set the process in place so the community understands why it is that they cannot heckle people who are at the microphone wanting to speak to you.

[0:24:53] Voice 30: They cannot boo anybody because that's completely prohibited

[0:24:58] Voice 30: because it will create a toxic meeting environment.

[0:25:01] Voice 30: Let's defend the process.

[0:25:02] Voice 30: That's D. Let's defend it.

[0:25:06] Voice 30: And if you defend the process, it will defend you.

[0:25:10] Voice 30: Example, from 7 to 14 trustees, I was observing a board of education.

[0:25:14] Voice 30: I will tell you stories and examples, by the way, as we go through the morning,

[0:25:17] Voice 30: and I will post from time to time to see if you have any questions.

[0:25:21] Voice 30: question. This one is a real example. I was sitting in a public gallery with a board of

[0:25:29] Voice 30: education, seven trustees sitting in front of me. And together with me in a public gallery,

[0:25:35] Voice 30: there were seven citizens, not trustee citizens. And there was a portion on the agenda,

[0:25:42] Voice 30: the rule said up to 15 minutes in total for members of the public to speak to us, members of

[0:25:48] Voice 30: of the board.

[0:25:49] Voice 30: And so during that segment, 15 minutes,

[0:25:53] Voice 30: they were allowed up to two minutes,

[0:25:54] Voice 30: citizens were allowed up to two minutes.

[0:25:56] Voice 30: And so the trustees invited that,

[0:25:58] Voice 30: this chair invited that input,

[0:26:00] Voice 30: and the seven people sitting next to me

[0:26:02] Voice 30: in the public gallery lined up and spoke,

[0:26:04] Voice 30: and it took no more than two minutes.

[0:26:06] Voice 30: So far, the process is being followed

[0:26:07] Voice 30: as defined in the policy of the school,

[0:26:11] Voice 30: in your case, the procedure by law.

[0:26:14] Voice 30: Then that segment on the agenda ends,

[0:26:17] Voice 30: and the board of trustees begins to function as a board essentially interacting with one another

[0:26:23] Voice 30: and with management and looking at making informed decisions.

[0:26:27] Voice 30: Fifteen minutes later, something happens.

[0:26:29] Voice 30: So here it is.

[0:26:30] Voice 30: An individual who is sitting in the public gallery together with me suddenly had his voice up and says,

[0:26:37] Voice 30: can I say something about the issue that you're discussing right now?

[0:26:41] Voice 30: And the chair says, okay, okay.

[0:26:46] Voice 30: Okay, in other words, we are nice people around you.

[0:26:48] Voice 30: We give permission.

[0:26:50] Voice 30: And so the individual spoke.

[0:26:53] Voice 30: And then he said what he had to say and stopped.

[0:26:58] Voice 30: Another 15 minutes go by, then another citizen has his hand up.

[0:27:02] Voice 30: Can I say something now?

[0:27:04] Voice 30: So in other words, we let him speak outside of the normal process,

[0:27:09] Voice 30: and you need to let me speak because I'm a citizen too.

[0:27:13] Voice 30: If he's entitled, I'm entitled.

[0:27:15] Voice 30: And before you know it, in 15 minutes, the meeting deteriorates into total chaos with everybody, all 14 people in the room, except for me, sometimes speaking at the same time.

[0:27:28] Voice 30: Someone from a public gallery overpowers someone else who is a trustee with their voice. The process is pretty well dead.

[0:27:36] Voice 30: So what do we need to do? Someone needs to protect the process.

[0:27:40] Voice 30: Number one, let's make sure everybody understands the process, and in that case, it was clearly defined in the bylaw.

[0:27:46] Voice 30: We need to make sure that the process is followed, so the explanation at the beginning in the public input period was fine,

[0:27:53] Voice 30: but then when the process was broken, someone needed to defend it. What does that mean?

[0:27:57] Voice 30: For the chair, it would have meant to say to the individual saying, can I speak now?

[0:28:02] Voice 30: No, the time to speak is at the public input segment. That segment is over.

[0:28:08] Voice 30: we need to now function as a board of trustees without public input.

[0:28:13] Voice 30: That would have been saying no to the individual, but saying yes to your best friend,

[0:28:17] Voice 30: saying yes to the process in the interest of preserving the integrity of the process.

[0:28:22] Voice 30: And if the chair didn't do that, if the chair did not stand up for the process

[0:28:26] Voice 30: and did not enforce the rule, guess what?

[0:28:30] Voice 30: Another trustee should have said, point of order, we have business to conduct

[0:28:35] Voice 30: and we need to maintain the integrity of the conversation occurring among the trustees,

[0:28:40] Voice 30: because otherwise we could have a messy meeting, and so that's my point of order.

[0:28:47] Voice 30: Protecting the process.

[0:28:47] Voice 30: It may sound silly, but I tell you, the more complex the conversation gets, the more contentious

[0:28:55] Voice 30: the issues are, the more critical it is that the process be explained to all participants,

[0:29:00] Voice 30: including the trustees, including the public.

[0:29:03] Voice 30: So we all read from the same song sheets as far as purchase is concerned.

[0:29:08] Voice 30: We understand why it's there.

[0:29:09] Voice 30: It's there to protect the integrity of what you do.

[0:29:13] Voice 30: So let's consider that.

[0:29:14] Voice 30: I'd like to give stories and examples and I will continue to do that because the agenda is so tight.

[0:29:20] Voice 30: We need to make sure that it stays with you.

[0:29:24] Voice 30: In terms of the topics that I cover, usually this is a full day.

[0:29:28] Voice 30: I will cover only topics that will be possible to cover within, but the topics typically are

[0:29:34] Voice 30: Robert's Rules and the Common Sense Factor. People don't always think about that in connection with

[0:29:40] Voice 30: Robert's Rules, but I'll explain it, give you some examples. Fundamental Rules for Debate will be the

[0:29:45] Voice 30: second most significant, probably one of the most significant segments, and I say we'll dedicate at

[0:29:50] Voice 30: least an hour to it, so that'll be about half of what we do. Depending on our time, we can talk

[0:29:55] Voice 30: about the technical technical aspects of motions, amendments and some parliamentary

[0:30:00] Voice 30: myths and shared decision-making goals and challenges which are in my book 101 boredom

[0:30:05] Voice 30: problems and how to solve them which i understand you have in the office that's the scope of it

[0:30:10] Voice 30: we will not cover all of it uh the more more of the emphasis will be on the first two because of

[0:30:15] Voice 30: the shortness of the time handout package so each of you have it the chair referred to it so you

[0:30:22] Voice 30: find it and refer to page numbers on an isolated basis the board and problem book is also a

[0:30:27] Voice 30: resource b our timing is we're going until 11 45 because you have an agenda that has not been

[0:30:33] Voice 30: still need to be concluded so the chair and i agreed that that would be a reasonable way to

[0:30:39] Voice 30: address it and questions i will pause from time to time and ask as many questions i would say

[0:30:45] Voice 30: i would probably pause at least twice three times and at times when it feels like there

[0:30:51] Voice 30: might be questions uh then i will pause and at that point i would ask that you push the raise

[0:30:57] Voice 30: hand button and recognize you then and you can ask your question i'm happy to to do that there

[0:31:04] Voice 30: is no such thing as a stupid question by the way i sometimes say to my client it's a stupid question

[0:31:10] Voice 30: maybe the one you keep to yourself uh in other words if something bothers you during a meeting

[0:31:15] Voice 30: a meeting of the council or a meeting of your um uh your own uh trust committee the smaller

[0:31:22] Voice 30: or meetings if something confuses you then to sit down and not raise that question and leaving

[0:31:28] Voice 30: things hanging you know what it could be that if you have that question everybody else has the same

[0:31:33] Voice 30: question but they're not um for some one reason or another they may not raise it so questions and

[0:31:39] Voice 30: never consider your question to be a stupid one at i told you about the timing uh your internal

[0:31:45] Voice 30: advisor on meeting procedures is your staff your internal staff it's not alimina and the question

[0:31:52] Voice 30: at the end of this is, is the agenda acceptable? I'll pause for a moment.

[0:31:56] Voice 30: Is there any objections to the agenda? There being none, oh I see a hand, thumbs up, thank you.

[0:32:05] Voice 30: I see no objection though, and therefore the agenda has been approved. And guess what? We just

[0:32:10] Voice 30: use the first tool in Robert's Rule of Order. It covers on page, let me just see, page three in the

[0:32:18] Voice 30: handle the package bottom of the page item 5 talks about unanimous consent so

[0:32:26] Voice 30: that can be an aid for the chair and for the meeting if there's a decision that

[0:32:31] Voice 30: needs to be made and it's not controversial such as a change to the

[0:32:35] Voice 30: agenda such as a friendly amendments an amendment that doesn't do very much to

[0:32:40] Voice 30: the intent of emotion then the chair can just say is there any objection to the

[0:32:45] Voice 30: amendment or is there any objection to the agenda? Pausing, there being no

[0:32:51] Voice 30: objection, the agenda has been approved. It's been approved by consent, by virtue

[0:32:55] Voice 30: of fact nobody objected. Please don't use unanimous consent for, for example, a

[0:33:01] Voice 30: bylaw. Approving a bylaw is a serious business. We want to make sure that there's

[0:33:05] Voice 30: opportunity for debate and there is an opportunity to vote explicitly and say

[0:33:10] Voice 30: I'm in favor or I'm against this bylaw. It's a substantive one. You never want to use unanimous

[0:33:16] Voice 30: consent for it. B, we talked about the agenda approval. That's what I just did. Time management

[0:33:23] Voice 30: in meetings. So here is an example. Suppose at 1145, you have three issues left and a grand

[0:33:31] Voice 30: total of one hour before people will need to leave and then we'll lose our quorum. What can

[0:33:36] Voice 30: the chair do members we have three issues left a grand total of one hour if there is no objection

[0:33:42] Voice 30: we will allocate 20 minutes per issue is there any objection there being none i will monitor the time

[0:33:50] Voice 30: and let you know when we approach the first 20 minute deadline and we'll do so for the next

[0:33:55] Voice 30: and the next the next two items so we manage time by unanimous consent not necessarily by taking a

[0:34:03] Voice 30: formal vote but just is there any objection to doing that and friendly amendment if let's say

[0:34:08] Voice 30: there was an expense that's being proposed and someone put down only the amount and forgot to

[0:34:14] Voice 30: put down including taxes and delivery costs and one of you said can we please add those words

[0:34:20] Voice 30: they seem friendly and non-controversial they don't change the intent of the motion

[0:34:24] Voice 30: so we say is there any objection to adding the words including including taxes and delivery

[0:34:30] Voice 30: costs. Pause. There being no objection, the amendment has been approved and the motion

[0:34:35] Voice 30: now reads to do XYZ including taxes and delivery costs. A method of simplifying

[0:34:42] Voice 30: the process. I want to share with you, given that you agree to the agenda, maybe

[0:34:49] Voice 30: I won't cover too much here, how my business was born. This was sometimes in

[0:34:53] Voice 30: the 80s. Rubbers through the water, very detailed exam under B. They asked us to

[0:34:58] Voice 30: find nine sentences in the 700 page book within half an hour that was quite a detailed exam

[0:35:05] Voice 30: NAP convention is an organization that I belong to and sometimes because so many procedures that

[0:35:12] Voice 30: are being used motions amendments amendments to the amendment points of order more probably in

[0:35:18] Voice 30: one three-day session that I got in five years of practice in terms of meeting procedures so

[0:35:26] Voice 30: So it's almost like this is an organization that's supposed to teach us how to conduct productive meetings.

[0:35:32] Voice 30: And their own meetings end up being sometimes three hours to deal with something that in most client settings will be done within less than 10 minutes.

[0:35:41] Voice 30: So, yes, we use the rules and we use them religiously.

[0:35:45] Voice 30: And in those meetings, I'm like a kid in a candy store.

[0:35:48] Voice 30: I just love it, all the procedures.

[0:35:51] Voice 30: But in reality, that's not the model for the world.

[0:35:54] Voice 30: And I say to my clients, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem will look like a nail.

[0:36:00] Voice 30: So if the only tool you have is Robert's Rules of Order, everything will look like something that needs a motion, an amendment, or a point of order, or any other procedural matter, when in reality, that's not the case.

[0:36:11] Voice 30: In reality, you need additional tools in order to run effective meetings.

[0:36:17] Voice 30: Let's look at two key phrases that I use from Robert's Rules of Order along the lines of common sense.

[0:36:22] Voice 30: This is one. This is one and it's straight from page 427.

[0:36:27] Voice 30: Any presiding officer will do well to bear in mind that no rules

[0:36:30] Voice 30: can take the place of tact and common sense, so we will talk about common sense

[0:36:34] Voice 30: first thing this morning. Common sense application of the rule.

[0:36:38] Voice 30: That's one. I love it. I was so pleased when they kept it for the 12th edition.

[0:36:43] Voice 30: They didn't take that sentence out. Common sense. Not always

[0:36:46] Voice 30: very common, but common sense. Important. This one has to do with

[0:36:50] Voice 30: is enforcement of rules and raising points of order.

[0:36:53] Voice 30: So maybe just before we go into this,

[0:36:55] Voice 30: when we say I have a point of order to raise,

[0:36:58] Voice 30: for example, let's say someone is speaking

[0:37:01] Voice 30: and they're completely off topic.

[0:37:03] Voice 30: And as a trustee, you're concerned about losing time

[0:37:06] Voice 30: on off topic comments, point of order.

[0:37:08] Voice 30: So interrupt the speaker.

[0:37:10] Voice 30: The chair recognizes you and says,

[0:37:12] Voice 30: what's your point of order?

[0:37:13] Voice 30: We're off topic.

[0:37:15] Voice 30: Can we please return to the agenda?

[0:37:17] Voice 30: And the chair will give directions to the trustee,

[0:37:19] Voice 30: trustee so and so please return to the topic the question is are we going to be to what extent are

[0:37:24] Voice 30: we going to use point of order this is an interesting sentence in ordinary meetings it

[0:37:29] Voice 30: is undesirable to raise points of order on minor irregularities of a purely technical character if

[0:37:36] Voice 30: it is clear that no one's rights are being infringed upon and no real harm is being done

[0:37:41] Voice 30: to the proper transaction of business quite profound because we say the rules are a means

[0:37:46] Voice 30: to an end they're not an end in themselves let's use them smartly let's use them effectively

[0:37:52] Voice 30: and let's not try to enforce rules when the damage is so minimal so examples under the purple

[0:38:01] Voice 30: minor digression from the agenda so someone is off topic yes but for after before but five seconds

[0:38:08] Voice 30: and they come back to being on topic do we want to raise a point of order on this one please do not

[0:38:14] Voice 30: That would be more time-consuming and would be more destructive than helpful.

[0:38:20] Voice 30: Second one, a quick interjection. Let's say someone noticed that there is a really important visitor.

[0:38:26] Voice 30: Let's say the Premier is at the door and we want to hear from the Premier.

[0:38:30] Voice 30: And the interjection is, Mr. Chair, the Premier is here and has only five minutes.

[0:38:34] Voice 30: Can we hear from him for five minutes?

[0:38:38] Voice 30: So we don't need to raise a point of order about that interjection,

[0:38:42] Voice 30: despite the fact that yes the individual might have interrupted someone who was speaking and

[0:38:47] Voice 30: might have needed another five minutes so we just need to be more careful about using rules

[0:38:53] Voice 30: when they're not really helpful when they cause more damage than they help as opposed to suppose

[0:38:59] Voice 30: we're in a meeting and one of the trustees is speaking passionately about something and another

[0:39:06] Voice 30: Another trustee is not liking it, and they begin to say, with respect, Mr. Chair, I don't think trustee so-and-so is positively motivated.

[0:39:17] Voice 30: I think they have a hidden agenda that they didn't tell us about, and I think I know what that is.

[0:39:22] Voice 30: and they begin to speculate on the motives of an individual,

[0:39:25] Voice 30: I would think in that case, the gavel.

[0:39:29] Voice 30: This is something that I rarely use.

[0:39:31] Voice 30: But on those occasions, it goes down.

[0:39:34] Voice 30: And I say, we need to speak about the issues,

[0:39:37] Voice 30: not the personality.

[0:39:39] Voice 30: We speak about the proposal,

[0:39:40] Voice 30: never speak about the proponent.

[0:39:43] Voice 30: That has to be a line that no one will cross in a meeting,

[0:39:46] Voice 30: despite the emotional nature of issues

[0:39:48] Voice 30: that you may face over the next four years.

[0:39:51] Voice 30: In this case, we need to protect the process and the point of order would be well advised.

[0:39:55] Voice 30: Personal attacks should never be the case.

[0:39:58] Voice 30: We can attack the proposal all we want, but never the proponent.

[0:40:02] Voice 30: Another place where I would say that for me is a line that must never be crossed is a toxic meeting environment.

[0:40:11] Voice 30: And this is something that's becoming more and more evident to me as I go with my practice.

[0:40:15] Voice 30: It's not something that I thought of in 1983, 84, a long time ago when I was beginning to get interested in this work.

[0:40:22] Voice 30: But it's very central to the work now.

[0:40:25] Voice 30: So, for example, if there is a member of the administration and they're presenting analysis, let's say legal analysis of something, which is essential to good decision making.

[0:40:36] Voice 30: And it's essential for you to learn from that, even if it flies in the face of an agenda that you have or preference that you have that emotion be adopted or defeated.

[0:40:48] Voice 30: So an individual is sharing information from a professional perspective. Russ or a member of his team might share that with you.

[0:40:56] Voice 30: And let's just say that one of the trustees doesn't like the message.

[0:40:59] Voice 30: And so they begin to, you know what they say, if you don't like the message, you sometimes shoot the messenger.

[0:41:06] Voice 30: And I've seen that happen. It is scary.

[0:41:09] Voice 30: It is very, very concerning because when trustees step over the line and begin to attack and question the integrity of a staff member,

[0:41:18] Voice 30: they begin to question the honesty or maybe speculate that they have some political motivation in their comment.

[0:41:24] Voice 30: and no one intervenes, you just potentially lost a very good staff member

[0:41:29] Voice 30: because you did not protect them and you did not insist on a safe meeting environment

[0:41:35] Voice 30: where someone can convey a message that may not necessarily be popular.

[0:41:40] Voice 30: But it is essential to good decision-making.

[0:41:43] Voice 30: It's like this.

[0:41:44] Voice 30: When you're working as a board or as a council,

[0:41:47] Voice 30: you want to make decisions that will affect the community.

[0:41:51] Voice 30: It's good to have your heads in the sky because you look long-term.

[0:41:54] Voice 30: you look at the needs of the communities that you serve and you want to make those decisions so

[0:41:59] Voice 30: at the same time besides the the maybe the preference that you have you need to have

[0:42:06] Voice 30: your feet on the ground and the feet on the ground would mean we need to know even if the

[0:42:10] Voice 30: idea sounds wonderful what is the league what are the legal ramifications of going this route

[0:42:15] Voice 30: and what are some of the impact on the finances what are some of the impact on

[0:42:19] Voice 30: human resources that we have that we can direct to do our work. So if someone gives you news about

[0:42:26] Voice 30: that from the position of knowing all of those things, being an expert on legalities, an expert

[0:42:32] Voice 30: on finances, and you start to question their integrity, guess what? You just potentially lose

[0:42:39] Voice 30: a good employee, potentially lose a relationship with an external consultant because nobody

[0:42:44] Voice 30: protected the process the process is we never attack an individual we the debate

[0:42:50] Voice 30: occurs among the trustees as to whether or not you want to follow legal advice

[0:42:54] Voice 30: or not and hopefully you do but if you choose not to collectively then that's a

[0:43:00] Voice 30: different story but we never attacked the presenter before to make sure we

[0:43:04] Voice 30: make it safe for them to present the message regardless of fact that it may

[0:43:08] Voice 30: get in the way of an agenda that someone may have in mind so food for thought

[0:43:13] Voice 30: This is me saying what are the lines that we must never cross? Personal attacks and something that

[0:43:18] Voice 30: creates a toxic meeting environment which stifles good conversation. Okay, so discussing the common

[0:43:24] Voice 30: sense factor. I'm going to, it might feel like I'm going like at the speed of light, but I think

[0:43:28] Voice 30: there's something that we need to address and important. So in a few, in just a few minutes,

[0:43:34] Voice 30: I'll give you some exercises to work on and I'll ask that you, maybe I will divide you into,

[0:43:44] Voice 30: the division will be into three groups because there'll be three scenarios that I'll give you,

[0:43:48] Voice 30: I'll explain to you when I get to it. Common sense factor, first of all. Common sense meeting

[0:43:55] Voice 30: goals, three. Really simple. Instead of giving you 700 pages, I'm just giving you

[0:44:01] Voice 30: three principles. Principle number one is when we have a democracy, we want to be able to engage

[0:44:07] Voice 30: engage the brain power that we have in the room.

[0:44:10] Voice 30: So the brain power might include the elected members.

[0:44:13] Voice 30: We want to engage the knowledge and the

[0:44:15] Voice 30: wisdom that they bring on a level playing field.

[0:44:18] Voice 30: And one of the principles very helpful in Robert's Rules of Order is if you want to

[0:44:22] Voice 30: speak on the motion for the second time, you go to the end of the line and wait

[0:44:28] Voice 30: until all first time speakers have spoken.

[0:44:30] Voice 30: And yet in some meetings we have some people with rebuttal back and forth and

[0:44:34] Voice 30: and they speak five, six, seven, eight times,

[0:44:37] Voice 30: and you have half the people in the room looking,

[0:44:38] Voice 30: and what am I?

[0:44:40] Voice 30: Am I a second-class trustee?

[0:44:42] Voice 30: Why am I being ignored?

[0:44:44] Voice 30: So in those settings, the chair will need to say,

[0:44:47] Voice 30: thank you, trustee A.

[0:44:48] Voice 30: We need to hear from members who have not spoken.

[0:44:51] Voice 30: Is there anyone who has not spoken who wishes to speak?

[0:44:54] Voice 30: We want to have that level playing field.

[0:44:56] Voice 30: Otherwise, you'll have good conversations,

[0:44:59] Voice 30: essential to good decision-making,

[0:45:00] Voice 30: informed decision-making, occurring in the parking lot

[0:45:04] Voice 30: after the meeting ended. Who suffers for that? Who pays for that? The citizens and the communities

[0:45:10] Voice 30: that you serve. So let's make sure that we have an equal level playing field engagement. And if

[0:45:16] Voice 30: you notice that someone has been back and forth dominating the meeting, excuse me, Mr. Chair,

[0:45:22] Voice 30: can we hear from people who have not spoken? We want to diversify the discussion, basically make

[0:45:27] Voice 30: it richer, more interesting. We want to avoid people having significant conversations about

[0:45:33] Voice 30: but issues that would have changed the outcome had they been stated

[0:45:36] Voice 30: simply because the process was weak.

[0:45:39] Voice 30: So level playing field.

[0:45:41] Voice 30: Sensible use of time.

[0:45:43] Voice 30: Sometimes the reality, if no one is watching the clock,

[0:45:46] Voice 30: an issue that is small ends up getting a life of its own

[0:45:50] Voice 30: and taking up a whole half hour.

[0:45:53] Voice 30: And people don't think that way at the beginning of the meeting.

[0:45:55] Voice 30: Here we go.

[0:45:56] Voice 30: Today you end up in a situation where,

[0:45:59] Voice 30: and I did not attend your previous two days,

[0:46:03] Voice 30: but the result of whatever it was is that now you have more things to do and your meeting would end

[0:46:07] Voice 30: up being a little bit longer i'm assuming but in some cases and i'm saying this to you this is a

[0:46:14] Voice 30: real example i won't tell you the municipality whether it occurred but this is what happened

[0:46:18] Voice 30: and i just remember when i heard it in the news meetings that began at four and ended at ten

[0:46:26] Voice 30: you'd think that's a long meeting until you knew something else 4 p.m 10 a.m the next morning

[0:46:35] Voice 30: not six hours 18 hours imagine people sitting like this imagine how much money you need to

[0:46:42] Voice 30: spend just keeping the staff in the room just all the resources that are being spent all because

[0:46:48] Voice 30: we're spinning our wheels taking 10 times 10 minutes to say something that we can say into

[0:46:54] Voice 30: to it's just interesting how time gets lost because nobody is looking at the clock so time

[0:47:01] Voice 30: per issue one of the realities we want to avoid is the lower the stake the higher the argument

[0:47:08] Voice 30: that sometimes is the reality lower the stakes small issues end up picking up so much time and

[0:47:15] Voice 30: then we get to bigger issues maybe late in a meeting where people are impatient and they're

[0:47:20] Voice 30: ready to go home so they get to come on come on let's vote already and they don't listen as well

[0:47:25] Voice 30: and they don't consider things with an open mind as well as they should and who pays the price for

[0:47:31] Voice 30: that because we didn't manage their agenda timing earlier in the meeting the community can end up

[0:47:38] Voice 30: the price with an inferior decision a decision that's not as strong because we did not not

[0:47:44] Voice 30: dedicate enough time for debate because we took too much time on one issue and did not allow

[0:47:49] Voice 30: enough time for another so chair and whoever is designing the agenda maybe good planning a good

[0:47:57] Voice 30: allocation of time before the meeting is even called and the other one on a per person basis

[0:48:02] Voice 30: sensible use of time that's the challenge i gave you i don't know if it's productive and i looked

[0:48:09] Voice 30: at your procedure by law just before we discussed it does say delegations are limited to 10 minutes

[0:48:16] Voice 30: It does not say how much time you limit it to.

[0:48:19] Voice 30: So my suggestion is self-regulation will be the best thing for the next four years.

[0:48:24] Voice 30: I want each of you to consider making a pledge to yourself that you will make your comments concise, to the point, well organized, and contain them within no more than about two minutes.

[0:48:35] Voice 30: So it might sound something like, I'm in favor of this proposal.

[0:48:39] Voice 30: I want to explain why.

[0:48:40] Voice 30: Reason number one is, and you should explain it in 30 seconds.

[0:48:44] Voice 30: Reason number two is, as you say, explain that in 30 seconds, and for those reasons, right now, I'm in favor of this, and I'm inclined to vote in favor of this proposal.

[0:48:54] Voice 30: A lot can be said in two minutes. Please consider that for the next four years in pulling your weight and ensuring there's good use of time, sensible use of time in your meeting.

[0:49:06] Voice 30: I can tell you in this regard, Robert's Rules of Order is not very useful because the time

[0:49:11] Voice 30: limit that it puts is, believe it or not, 10 minutes per person in debate.

[0:49:17] Voice 30: I think if you were to do that and all 26 of you wanted to speak in debate, you'll be

[0:49:22] Voice 30: here not for three days, you'll be here for 10 days before you finish the agenda and you'll

[0:49:27] Voice 30: be exhausted.

[0:49:27] Voice 30: And here is another significant consequence.

[0:49:30] Voice 30: You think about this.

[0:49:31] Voice 30: this you want to attract trustees to join let's say that at some point come 2022 you decide you

[0:49:38] Voice 30: don't want to run anymore and you want to invite someone to run and take over your place for the

[0:49:42] Voice 30: islands that you serve and you say the individual said well how much time do you take for the

[0:49:47] Voice 30: meetings and you tell them oh we take 10 days 10 times a year forget it i have family i have a job

[0:49:54] Voice 30: you know i expected i would quit everything and just dedicate myself to public life and not getting

[0:50:00] Voice 30: He paid for it, not to be able to support my children and family.

[0:50:03] Voice 30: So we have that consequence.

[0:50:05] Voice 30: You end up pushing away individuals who might be excellent in governance

[0:50:10] Voice 30: because you're not managing your time as effectively as you could.

[0:50:14] Voice 30: The last one on the list is critical.

[0:50:16] Voice 30: And that's very central in my book, in my approach to decision-making.

[0:50:19] Voice 30: And it's not something that's in Robert's rule of order.

[0:50:22] Voice 30: Informed decision-making.

[0:50:24] Voice 30: It means this.

[0:50:25] Voice 30: We want to, when we vote on something,

[0:50:27] Voice 30: especially when it's complex and controversial,

[0:50:29] Voice 30: we want to have had the necessary debate we want to have all the nuggets of wisdom all the knowledge

[0:50:36] Voice 30: that we need in order to cast an informed vote and that comes up a lot comes up a lot it's something

[0:50:43] Voice 30: that's missing it's something that's technical maybe information that is technical is communicated

[0:50:49] Voice 30: too quickly and maybe in some instances there is no advance notice some come someone comes up with

[0:50:55] Voice 30: the motion on the fly without advance notice to your colleagues then we are not really having

[0:51:03] Voice 30: we may have our heads in the sky but our feet are not on the ground so that really doesn't work for

[0:51:09] Voice 30: informed decision making informed decision making would look something like this let's say an issue

[0:51:14] Voice 30: is big and complex having the input of the trustees would certainly be important having

[0:51:19] Voice 30: Having the input of management, the management team, and the operational, legal, financial,

[0:51:25] Voice 30: and any other input that will be absolutely essential, otherwise you're dreaming big dreams.

[0:51:32] Voice 30: But your feet are not on the ground, so your management team is your feet on the ground.

[0:51:36] Voice 30: They need to be included.

[0:51:37] Voice 30: I found that in some instances, I don't know where it was, but I'm recalling on one occasion

[0:51:43] Voice 30: that someone said, we need to just somehow find a way to get our staff to not speak.

[0:51:49] Voice 30: We don't want their input to get in the way of what we want to do.

[0:51:53] Voice 30: So that doesn't work.

[0:51:54] Voice 30: So yes, you're entitled to vote how you want to vote,

[0:51:59] Voice 30: but I think the community is entitled to stronger leadership.

[0:52:02] Voice 30: So what I put down here, advanced notices of motion,

[0:52:05] Voice 30: that is minimizing motions that are made on the fly,

[0:52:09] Voice 30: making it only the exception rather than the norm,

[0:52:12] Voice 30: which means if someone wants to make a motion without advanced notice,

[0:52:15] Voice 30: there's got to be a good reason why we don't give that advance notice to our colleagues around the

[0:52:20] Voice 30: table. There'll be something so imperative, so significant that would waive that notice. And

[0:52:27] Voice 30: the material is, keep this in mind, your meetings are open to the public. So I'm thinking about

[0:52:34] Voice 30: those motions on the fly, not only from your perspective as voting members, trusted to make

[0:52:40] Voice 30: a judicious, thoughtful decision, not only from your perspective, but also from the perspective

[0:52:45] Voice 30: with the public. If a motion came on the fly, I, as a member of the public, who would have

[0:52:52] Voice 30: made a choice to be here and observe the meeting, who would have made a choice maybe, if I knew

[0:52:57] Voice 30: that motion was coming, to request to be added to the delegation list or the public input

[0:53:04] Voice 30: segment on the agenda, so I can speak to you before you make that decision, and I'm denied

[0:53:09] Voice 30: that opportunity before because it's made on the fly without advance notice.

[0:53:15] Voice 30: So I'm saying this, with the purpose of informed decision making both for you and for the purpose

[0:53:20] Voice 30: of transparency with the community, meaningful transparency, let's minimize motions on the

[0:53:28] Voice 30: fly, make them the exception rather than the norm.

[0:53:31] Voice 30: I mean, we know that there are emergencies, emergencies might mean we need to make that

[0:53:35] Voice 30: decision today and otherwise something horrible would happen but let's make those the exception

[0:53:40] Voice 30: rather than the norm that's my recommendation i don't have the ability to tell you what to do but

[0:53:46] Voice 30: i'm here to advise you that these are some of the problems that i have seen surprises coming up

[0:53:50] Voice 30: sometimes late in a meeting nobody knows what it is and nobody has the backbone to stand in

[0:53:57] Voice 30: the way of it so we end up being stuck and then that ends up leading to one of the most interesting

[0:54:03] Voice 30: thing which is motions that are revisited because they were made on the

[0:54:07] Voice 30: fly and without all the necessary material so someone is a subsequent

[0:54:11] Voice 30: meeting would say yeah we did it but it's really it's a bad idea can we

[0:54:15] Voice 30: please revisit that motion it does not come across as very credible and

[0:54:19] Voice 30: trustworthy and your word is trustworthy you are a trustee acting in a manner

[0:54:26] Voice 30: that would be trusted all the time for the next four years by an average

[0:54:31] Voice 30: rich citizens who expect good governance and when they see a motion on the fly I don't think they

[0:54:36] Voice 30: see it exception rather than the norm so meeting meeting goals this is a bit lengthy uh so I think

[0:54:43] Voice 30: rather than do that uh I'll do this I'll give you scenarios because I want to involve you I've been

[0:54:48] Voice 30: talking for a bit and I'm always concerned about my use of time this is a scenario and I would say

[0:54:56] Voice 30: Maybe we can divide it by, let's say, A, B, C, D, F, G.

[0:55:03] Voice 30: All those whose last name begins with A to I would be group one.

[0:55:10] Voice 30: Then J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, up until Q, J to Q would be group two.

[0:55:17] Voice 30: And then Q, R, R to Z would be group three.

[0:55:21] Voice 30: I don't know if we divide evenly, but just think about that.

[0:55:23] Voice 30: So for the first group, scenario one, so you have a board member or a member of your, a

[0:55:34] Voice 30: member of, a colleague trustee who says this, I hear you and I tend to concur with you,

[0:55:40] Voice 30: but my hands are tied.

[0:55:41] Voice 30: I was ordered by my council to vote no.

[0:55:44] Voice 30: So that would probably apply only to the Bowen Island municipality that has a council and

[0:55:52] Voice 30: they ordered to vote no.

[0:55:53] Voice 30: Is there something wrong with that statement?

[0:55:55] Voice 30: And if so, what do we do about it?

[0:55:58] Voice 30: What is the remedy we're looking for?

[0:56:01] Voice 30: The second one, a council member, let's say you are at Bowen

[0:56:05] Voice 30: or another municipality that's represented in a regional board,

[0:56:10] Voice 30: and someone calls you as an advisor,

[0:56:13] Voice 30: says, we went to the regional board meeting,

[0:56:16] Voice 30: and the question is, we sent a representative,

[0:56:19] Voice 30: what procedure do you wish to use to punish a colleague

[0:56:22] Voice 30: who voted differently than we ordered them to.

[0:56:25] Voice 30: We ordered them to vote no, they voted yes.

[0:56:28] Voice 30: How do we punish that individual?

[0:56:30] Voice 30: What's wrong with this premise?

[0:56:32] Voice 30: And what do we do about it?

[0:56:35] Voice 30: So last one, it's payback time.

[0:56:37] Voice 30: Someone who campaigned for you,

[0:56:39] Voice 30: campaigned really, really hard, comes to you one day.

[0:56:41] Voice 30: They know that there is a rezoning by-law pending,

[0:56:44] Voice 30: and they say something like this.

[0:56:46] Voice 30: Remember how hard we campaigned to get you elected?

[0:56:49] Voice 30: We count on you to vote against this by-law.

[0:56:52] Voice 30: please please don't let us down what's wrong with this and how do you respond okay so let's take

[0:56:59] Voice 30: about three four minutes we don't have a lot of time but uh and when we when we're done i'll ask

[0:57:04] Voice 30: you what's wrong with this and we'll get you to participate you raise your hand we'll have more of

[0:57:08] Voice 30: a conversation rather than elena lecturing at you all the time so let's wait for two minutes

[0:57:15] Voice 30: let's say and then i'll invite your comments all

[0:57:29] Trustee Luckham: right that would sound right yes

[0:57:30] Trustee Luckham: Yes,

[0:57:30] Voice 8: that's

[0:57:32] Trustee Luckham: the punishment section.

[0:57:33] Trustee Luckham: Well, are you good at that?

[0:57:35] Trustee Luckham: We've jumped, well, we've been challenged with that.

[0:57:38] Voice 30: The boardroom's on.

[0:57:40] Voice 30: Actually, here it is.

[0:57:41] Voice 30: If we have three groups talking at the same time,

[0:57:44] Voice 30: it probably wouldn't work.

[0:57:45] Voice 30: Do it individually, do it on your own.

[0:57:47] Voice 30: And then at the end of a couple of minutes,

[0:57:49] Voice 30: we'll invite comments on one at a time.

[0:57:51] Voice 30: I know that in some cases, people do breakout rooms.

[0:57:55] Voice 30: We just don't have enough time to go through all the logistics.

[0:57:58] Voice 30: So think about it within your group, think about the scenario and then we'll invite a few comments on each of them.

[0:58:05] Voice 30: It should be quite interesting.

[0:58:17] Voice 22: Sorry, I just have a quick question.

[0:58:19] Voice 11: Sure.

[0:58:20] Voice 22: Because we're all joining in via one Zoom meeting, how are we going to do this?

[0:58:26] Voice 30: Baby, just think about it on your own.

[0:58:29] Voice 30: Think about it on your own.

[0:58:30] Voice 30: And then when I invite comments, it will be, you'll share your comments with the entire group.

[0:58:34] Voice 30: group. So we'll stay in a plenary setting. We will not break into small breakout groups.

[0:58:41] Voice 30: Thank you, Trustee Evans. Thank you, Christina. Give us a couple minutes and then we'll have

[0:58:52] Voice 30: the conversation. One person will speak at a time. We can start the conversation informally

[0:59:51] Voice 30: in about a minute. I think it's fairly clear that there are some problems here, so let's

[0:59:56] Voice 30: just wait one more minute, give you more time to think about it.

[1:00:00] Voice 30: I'm being very careful with time, sorry.

[1:00:03] Voice 30: I know the time was very short, and I think the discussion will unfold as it does, and let's make it more spontaneous rather than needing to think about it for 10 minutes.

[1:00:59] Voice 30: Any comment on the first one?

[1:01:01] Voice 30: Why is it, in what way is it problematic and what needs to happen?

[1:01:06] Voice 30: Trustee Sue Allen, Sue Allen, go.

[1:01:09] Voice 30: Unmute and share your thoughts.

[1:01:11] Voice 5: Sure.

[1:01:12] Voice 5: I just think you need to have an open mind.

[1:01:15] Voice 5: otherwise why go to the meeting council could have sent a letter yeah

[1:01:20] Voice 30: yeah so if your council

[1:01:21] Voice 30: ordered you to vote yes or to vote no at this level uh then do you have an open mind that's

[1:01:28] Voice 30: a question so i hear you i tend to concur with you but my hands are tied i was already my

[1:01:33] Voice 30: colleagues did not open mind you're not listening you're not learning and you there's a duty here

[1:01:38] Voice 30: to learn in trustee Boland.

[1:01:48] Voice 23: Yeah it must depend upon the procedural policy rules your position

[1:01:55] Voice 23: you know I think in the Bone Island instance you're a member of the council but then you go

[1:02:00] Voice 23: to the trust and do you represent that council or do you represent yourself

[1:02:07] Voice 23: self and um i don't know the answer to be honest yeah

[1:02:12] Voice 30: yeah it it it's it's a challenge it's a

[1:02:15] Voice 30: struggle and i'll share with you what i call the two hats model in just a few minutes once we

[1:02:20] Voice 30: finish this discussion but this is the lead up to that discussion i thought we'd have that

[1:02:24] Voice 30: conversation because this is a situation that people face christina trustee trustee evans

[1:02:30] Voice 30: Your hand is up.

[1:02:33] Voice 30: Just unmute.

[1:02:34] Voice 30: Yes.

[1:02:36] Voice 22: Thank you.

[1:02:37] Voice 22: I was going to say, again, it depends on the situation leading up to this statement, but

[1:02:43] Voice 22: if you had a council that had considered the topic at hand and a council had decided that

[1:02:51] Voice 22: no was the correct vote, then you have to represent that vote if you're the one coming

[1:02:57] Voice 22: forward to represent the council.

[1:02:59] Voice 22: The other part is you shouldn't be saying this statement if that is the case as well, because regardless of your personal opinions, you are there to represent the council and you need to elicit trust in the process and the decision that was made and not give openings for dissension in the ranks.

[1:03:21] Voice 22: But I may have misunderstood the premise for this, but that's my thought. Thank you.

[1:03:28] Voice 30: it's thank you very much it's not an easy uh well i need to share with you once we're done

[1:03:33] Voice 30: uh once we hear people to share with you the model that i look for resolving these very difficult

[1:03:38] Voice 30: uh struggles that people might have trustee campbell uh

[1:03:46] Voice 16: i was just thinking that it's a very

[1:03:48] Voice 16: closed statement to make after somebody um makes a statement like that and you're so you're not

[1:03:56] Voice 16: really bringing anything forward to say you know i've been ordered not to um to vote yes for this

[1:04:10] Voice 16: but if it was amended this way you're not giving any reasons or directions to help out with the

[1:04:16] Voice 16: situation right yep

[1:04:19] Voice 30: yep that's good in other words we just say this is what i was ordered to do and

[1:04:23] Voice 30: and I'm not sharing anything, any of the reasons.

[1:04:25] Voice 30: No, it's not as transparent as the group deserves.

[1:04:28] Voice 30: Because let's just have one more person,

[1:04:31] Voice 30: Trustee Gaiter, you're from Bowen as well.

[1:04:34] Voice 30: So go for it.

[1:04:36] Voice 25: The problem is the council had just told me

[1:04:39] Voice 25: that my hands were tied.

[1:04:41] Voice 25: And I would have to say to them that, you know,

[1:04:43] Voice 25: depending on, I understand all your arguments

[1:04:46] Voice 25: and I understand the position.

[1:04:47] Voice 25: But if there's something else that comes up,

[1:04:49] Voice 25: then I need to be able to analyze it.

[1:04:52] Voice 25: and act with everybody's best interest.

[1:04:55] Voice 25: But I don't want to go into a meeting with my hands tied.

[1:04:58] Voice 30: Yeah, and that's the point.

[1:05:00] Voice 30: And so you stated it very well.

[1:05:02] Voice 30: So let's, in other words, what's needed here is my counsel made a mistake

[1:05:07] Voice 30: by giving me an order.

[1:05:08] Voice 30: So then what I say to them when, at the point that they attempt to do that,

[1:05:12] Voice 30: we say, excuse me, that's not how it's going to work.

[1:05:14] Voice 30: I cannot come to the meeting with my mind closed.

[1:05:17] Voice 30: There'd be some things shared at the meeting that affects the entire system,

[1:05:21] Voice 30: system, the entire island system, and I need to factor those into my decision-making, and

[1:05:26] Voice 30: with that in mind, please don't give me orders.

[1:05:29] Voice 30: It could be essentially we say no to our own council may sound like a brave, don't, something

[1:05:35] Voice 30: that you would not dream of doing, but that's exactly what's needed for the sake of informed

[1:05:40] Voice 30: decision-making.

[1:05:41] Voice 30: In other words, let's not come to a meeting with our minds closed.

[1:05:45] Voice 30: We might have some information to share, that's okay, but our minds have to be open.

[1:05:50] Voice 30: trustee campbell and more or you have you spoken okay i think i think that okay you put down your

[1:05:58] Voice 30: hand okay so that's one one of them i guess obviously i'm i was pleased to see that answer

[1:06:04] Voice 30: coming i will share with you the two-half model in just a moment but let's look at the second one

[1:06:08] Voice 30: second scenario is um you get the call from a municipality let's say and they ask for your

[1:06:15] Voice 30: advice you're a parliamentarian i'm putting don't think about it as a trustee for now you're a

[1:06:20] Voice 30: parliamentarian and they call you and they say we gave orders to our colleague to vote

[1:06:26] Voice 30: and they voted exactly the opposite we told them to vote no but they voted yes and we say how dare

[1:06:34] Voice 30: you we just want to punish them what procedure do we use to punish them any thoughts on this one

[1:06:40] Voice 30: group the second group punishments anyone i don't see any hands going up anyone have any thoughts

[1:06:51] Voice 30: us now as you listen to this trustee uh

[1:06:59] Voice 28: yes i think punishment is basically out of order

[1:07:05] Voice 28: you know it shouldn't that shouldn't be a conversation you know you can't bite on that

[1:07:10] Voice 28: yeah

[1:07:11] Voice 30: and so you you would say if suppose you're in my shoes as a parliamentarian you would say

[1:07:15] Voice 30: to that council that's not appropriate and the reason is the reason why it's not appropriate is

[1:07:21] Voice 30: why well

[1:07:24] Voice 28: because it's a personal attack punishment

[1:07:28] Voice 30: okay uh and yeah it's we should not maybe the

[1:07:33] Voice 30: message is you should not have ordered him to vote in the first place uh that's to be there

[1:07:38] Voice 30: to present that not in other words allowed him or her to go to the meeting with an open mind

[1:07:44] Voice 30: last one pressure by a campaigner so someone who campaigned for you on the island uh where you live

[1:07:51] Voice 30: and they campaigned really hard and then they come and say this to you.

[1:07:57] Voice 30: What did you come up with?

[1:07:58] Voice 30: What will you say to that very strong supporters at election time

[1:08:03] Voice 30: and then they come to you and say it's payback time?

[1:08:07] Voice 30: Susan, Trustee Yates.

[1:08:09] Voice 31: Thank you.

[1:08:10] Voice 31: Yes, I had this happen to me a number of times in previous terms

[1:08:16] Voice 31: and I made it very clear to the people who said,

[1:08:20] Voice 31: well, you said you were going to do this.

[1:08:23] Voice 31: or you implied that you were going to vote this way,

[1:08:27] Voice 31: that I had been listening to the public,

[1:08:30] Voice 31: either at meetings or at public hearings,

[1:08:34] Voice 31: and I have an open mind

[1:08:35] Voice 31: and I've learned a lot of new information,

[1:08:38] Voice 31: and now I feel I need to vote this way.

[1:08:42] Voice 30: Yeah, so it's just explaining.

[1:08:45] Voice 30: In a way, the way you said it was elegant, was gentle.

[1:08:49] Voice 30: You didn't say you were a bad person.

[1:08:50] Voice 30: is saying my job is to come to meetings with an open mind to listen and to learn and the fact

[1:08:58] Voice 30: that you campaigned for me maybe something i i appreciate that thank you for doing that

[1:09:02] Voice 30: and the how the process works is as follows so so i'm just making your comments a bit

[1:09:08] Voice 30: just a bit shorter trustee patrick i'm

[1:09:16] Trustee Patrick: sorry i couldn't get my mood off um this is where process

[1:09:20] Trustee Patrick: is your friend i love that statement um i know i make sure i consistently i say it verbally and i

[1:09:27] Trustee Patrick: also put it in my emails like when an applicant might invite you to go see your their property

[1:09:32] Trustee Patrick: say you'll think i'm happy to come see it but please bear in mind i will be maintaining an

[1:09:36] Trustee Patrick: open mind and uh you know and i just repeat that constantly that i must maintain an open mind

[1:09:43] Trustee Patrick: yeah

[1:09:43] Voice 30: yeah so in other words i'm not going to be it has no impact will have no impact on how it

[1:09:49] Voice 30: it will just be one maybe one piece of the puzzle but there are other pieces of the puzzle that will

[1:09:54] Voice 30: be there trustee peterson uh

[1:09:59] Voice 19: i i hearken back to the phrase i i learned in my very first term and

[1:10:04] Voice 19: i love the sound of it which is uh that i will not fetter my discretion which means the same

[1:10:12] Voice 19: thing i'm going to keep an open mind and ideally right up to the moment that that you're going to

[1:10:18] Voice 19: actually vote one way or the other you should be open to hearing information that may change your

[1:10:25] Voice 19: mind so i love not fettering my discretion yeah

[1:10:29] Voice 30: and you're defending the process by doing that

[1:10:31] Voice 30: in the process and thank you thank you everybody for sharing it's we've done that in a reasonable

[1:10:37] Voice 30: amount of time and well so thank you uh there'll be more of those uh at least on one one more uh

[1:10:44] Voice 30: segment of my presentation I will invite your comments on other things as well but here is

[1:10:49] Voice 30: what I say the two hats dilemma and and that's the model that I shared in my book and in the

[1:10:56] Voice 30: handout package you'll find reference to it on on page nine bringing constituency input to the table

[1:11:03] Voice 30: is fine so if you are with them for example if you if you're with Bowen and you come to the table

[1:11:10] Voice 30: to come to this table and there's some input that's useful to the conversation you bring it

[1:11:15] Voice 30: in and you share it that's okay that's part of the knowledge building you sharing for ed bowen

[1:11:19] Voice 30: this is what we see and as of now it looks like this is a good idea as of now it looks like a

[1:11:23] Voice 30: bad idea but i'm sitting here with an open mind and i want to listen and learn so sharing

[1:11:28] Voice 30: constituency input learn listening and learning is the next step in terms of what we change hats

[1:11:34] Voice 30: We put on the learner's hat and act in a judicious and thoughtful manner and with an appetite

[1:11:41] Voice 30: for learning.

[1:11:42] Voice 30: And then maybe some information shared that will cause us to change our mind and to vote

[1:11:47] Voice 30: differently.

[1:11:48] Voice 30: So let's make sure that we keep our minds open up until and including the moment of

[1:11:54] Voice 30: voting.

[1:11:54] Voice 30: So in other words, we cannot automatically dismiss something because we already made

[1:12:00] Voice 30: up our mind before the meeting how we will vote under pressure or constituents requests so we just

[1:12:06] Voice 30: need to be able to say no to them and say yes to the two hats model and maybe even explain it and

[1:12:14] Voice 30: if you want to take a picture of this and share it with citizens in your in your um in your island

[1:12:21] Voice 30: who may have that sense of they can pressure you to vote a certain way you can explain to them this

[1:12:26] Voice 30: is how the process works we bring constituency input i'm glad to hear your input and i will

[1:12:33] Voice 30: share it to the extent that it affects the discussion that it does not be shared by someone

[1:12:38] Voice 30: else so then i will share it but then my job is to listen to listen and to learn and there may be

[1:12:44] Voice 30: things that other colleagues might share it might be something that our administration will share

[1:12:49] Voice 30: My job is to listen and to learn and to make sure that everything is factored into my mind when I vote.

[1:12:57] Voice 30: So listening, learning, when you vote, the green hat is on.

[1:13:00] Voice 30: That is the overall island trust impact.

[1:13:05] Voice 30: And then we need to inform everybody, including the citizens, including colleagues.

[1:13:11] Voice 30: Everybody needs to know how the process works.

[1:13:14] Voice 30: So remember what I said.

[1:13:16] Voice 30: Make sure you know how the process works and follow it.

[1:13:19] Voice 30: make sure that other people know how the process works and when the process is broken you need to

[1:13:23] Voice 30: protect it but i think the idea the general idea is communication let's make sure everybody

[1:13:28] Voice 30: understands that coming to meetings with closed minds and with a predetermined disposition on

[1:13:35] Voice 30: voting yes or no and go for not listening and not learning it means potential damage to the

[1:13:41] Voice 30: organization because we were not paying attention to significant words of warning that will cause us

[1:13:47] Voice 30: should cause us to change our mind but we closed it and we're not listening anymore

[1:13:51] Voice 30: okay any quick follow-up two hats two hats model it basically means this that

[1:13:58] Voice 30: maybe when you campaign you are coming in as an advocate for some things but when you are

[1:14:05] Voice 30: in office it changed you change from an advocate into holding a judicial position you join a panel

[1:14:12] Voice 30: of judges. In this case, 26 judges. It's a panel, a big panel of judges, and it's a collective

[1:14:20] Voice 30: decision. And sometimes the collective decision will be made unanimously. If the decisions are

[1:14:25] Voice 30: non-controversial, sometimes it will be by a majority vote. The requirement is a majority vote.

[1:14:31] Voice 30: But to push it too quickly to a majority vote without enabling the conversation to occur

[1:14:36] Voice 30: would be problematic from a decision-making perspective. How are we doing? Any questions?

[1:14:42] Voice 30: a promised question period from time to time common sense this is not in robert's rules of

[1:14:48] Voice 30: order but it is in my book one of the problems that i put down was the two hats dilemma and the

[1:14:53] Voice 30: three scenarios connect to it in one way or another but the ultimate ultimate question is

[1:14:58] Voice 30: are you coming to a meeting with an open mind or have you shut your brain down completely to any

[1:15:03] Voice 30: input and you're going to vote how you promise someone ahead of time or how you were directed

[1:15:09] Voice 30: which shouldn't have been directed, but it's a fruitful thought.

[1:15:13] Voice 30: Are we okay to continue? I don't see any hands going up.

[1:15:18] Voice 30: Some, I'm asking you this common sense presence, some things to consider.

[1:15:22] Voice 30: Emotion on the fly. So that's, again, ties to the question of surprise

[1:15:27] Voice 30: and also staff impact. So this story was shared with me by a municipal clerk.

[1:15:34] Voice 30: And she said, it was a council meeting that I served at as a clerk, taking minutes with them.

[1:15:42] Voice 30: And in the course of that meeting, there was one part that was informal.

[1:15:47] Voice 30: And then somebody said, one of the councillors said, we got to do something about this.

[1:15:51] Voice 30: And someone else said, I'll move it. And someone else said, I'll second it.

[1:15:56] Voice 30: And the mayor wanted to move things quickly, said, OK, let's take a vote.

[1:16:00] Voice 30: Those in favor, those against motion carried, happily moving right along.

[1:16:03] Voice 30: It's just that I had no clue what it was.

[1:16:06] Voice 30: So I put down what I thought it was.

[1:16:08] Voice 30: And at the next meeting, I was shamed publicly

[1:16:11] Voice 30: by the individual saying,

[1:16:13] Voice 30: you didn't understand the motion was not this,

[1:16:16] Voice 30: the motion was that.

[1:16:18] Voice 30: If you want to get rid of a good staff member,

[1:16:20] Voice 30: that would be a good way to do it, shame them in public.

[1:16:23] Voice 30: So it's a fruitful thought.

[1:16:25] Voice 30: What is the impact on staff?

[1:16:27] Voice 30: Taking minutes, staff who have to implement a decision

[1:16:31] Voice 30: and don't have clarity as to what the decision is.

[1:16:34] Voice 30: So that's the recommendation I was making earlier.

[1:16:37] Voice 30: 90% of the time, it should be advanced notice

[1:16:40] Voice 30: rather than motions coming up on the fly.

[1:16:42] Voice 30: And if they have to, by chance,

[1:16:44] Voice 30: let's say it's an emergency, it needs immediate attention.

[1:16:48] Voice 30: Let's take a moment and write it down.

[1:16:50] Voice 30: And then let's have staff display it on the screen,

[1:16:53] Voice 30: especially if we run the meeting virtually,

[1:16:55] Voice 30: we want the public to see it, the trustees to see it.

[1:16:59] Voice 30: And then the process is more credible because you have not only a heads are in the sky,

[1:17:05] Voice 30: but our feet are on the ground. So I'd say engage the staff that here is a motion that I want to

[1:17:09] Voice 30: make. I have a sense of what it would look like. Can you please help me write it? And so that

[1:17:16] Voice 30: means that we act more, more responsible governance. People ask me about what's the

[1:17:22] Voice 30: process for reconsidering a motion. One of the things I will tell you, and I,

[1:17:28] Voice 30: It may sound surprising.

[1:17:30] Voice 30: It's this.

[1:17:30] Voice 30: My advice nowadays, I used to be different.

[1:17:33] Voice 30: I would go and do the research for you, look at your bylaw, look at the sections in Robert's Rules of Order on reconsideration, rescinding and renewing a motion.

[1:17:42] Voice 30: I say the best thing you can do in terms of the motion to reconsider is make the right decision in the first place.

[1:17:51] Voice 30: It may sound strange, but how often do I find that organizations just rush the process through?

[1:17:57] Voice 30: Sometimes a mayor or a chair will take advantage of the fact that people look half asleep and they just push through those in favor, those against, motion carried.

[1:18:06] Voice 30: Well, we're damaging the process. We're damaging the trust level when we're rusting through.

[1:18:12] Voice 30: Number one, people don't have enough time to think about it.

[1:18:15] Voice 30: And number two, they don't even know what they're voting on. And all of that, all of those are not good.

[1:18:20] Voice 30: So let's repeat the motion at the time the vote is taken.

[1:18:24] Voice 30: can let's make sure that we are giving the proper notice for it as well uh we have this story that

[1:18:30] Voice 30: was shared with me by a chief administrative officer of a municipality and this is what she

[1:18:35] Voice 30: said that's on the scene he said the mayor who came into office knew to the to the setting and

[1:18:43] Voice 30: he said to her for the next four years this is my order to you you must be quiet not speak to me

[1:18:51] Voice 30: not sit next to me during meetings don't tell us how to write motions just leave it to us we know

[1:18:58] Voice 30: what we're doing we will act as we are authorized to and she said I obeyed in the four years that

[1:19:05] Voice 30: this mayor was in office set a record for the number of motions that had to be revisited because

[1:19:11] Voice 30: it was so flawed heads in the sky feet not firmly on the ground there is a problem so we need to

[1:19:18] Voice 30: engage the management team to give us the foundational areas of expertise that they have

[1:19:24] Voice 30: legal financial planning issues that may come up and a lot of them will come in your on your

[1:19:31] Voice 30: respective islands some of them will come in a different way so let's find out from the

[1:19:37] Voice 30: administration whose job is to give you the professional expertise find out from them

[1:19:42] Voice 30: and then the likelihood of revisiting goes down when the public sees it sees revisiting emotion

[1:19:48] Voice 30: when a business that you want to deal with sees you revisiting a motion they

[1:19:52] Voice 30: don't want to deal with you anymore because you're not a credible client for

[1:19:57] Voice 30: them to have so let's make sure that we strengthen the process so another under

[1:20:03] Voice 30: D some something people think they just go and learn Roberts or the voice that

[1:20:07] Voice 30: can push their way through over their colleagues who may not not understand

[1:20:12] Voice 30: the rules as well I say that's a mistake if we say that by knowing the rules you

[1:20:18] Voice 30: can push through with your agenda it means we make the decisions on the basis of who knows the rules

[1:20:23] Voice 30: best as to as compared to what is the best decision that will endure for the next the

[1:20:30] Voice 30: immediate future and for the long-term future which we are looking after here so that should

[1:20:35] Voice 30: not be the main reason why a motion should pass it's sometimes it is uh let's just leave this

[1:20:42] Voice 30: Okay. So maybe just on the last one, open mind versus pre-meeting promises. This may sound weird. I know that when the individual shared that with me, he spoke to me at the end of a workshop and he said, I attended a council meeting, he said, municipal council meeting.

[1:20:59] Voice 30: and it went how it went and then the meeting was adjourned and then one individual stood up

[1:21:06] Voice 30: and in front of the public at the top of his voice yelled at his colleague across the room and said

[1:21:11] Voice 30: you promised you will vote with me and you didn't you should be ashamed of yourself

[1:21:17] Voice 30: public comment like we're not we're making deals and we're announcing to the world that that's what

[1:21:22] Voice 30: we do and our minds are not necessarily all that open so i don't think from a public perspective

[1:21:29] Voice 30: that conveys a very credible message.

[1:21:32] Voice 30: So is common sense present?

[1:21:34] Voice 30: And I'm trying to think, maybe let's just do this

[1:21:38] Voice 30: and then we'll pause and take a break

[1:21:40] Voice 30: because we are approaching the 1030,

[1:21:42] Voice 30: which is the time I thought we would do that.

[1:21:45] Voice 30: Do we need 50% plus one to adopt motion?

[1:21:48] Voice 30: I'm being a parliamentarian now, I'm giving you the numbers.

[1:21:51] Voice 30: 50% plus one is correct 50% of the time.

[1:21:56] Voice 30: But the correct statement is for motions,

[1:21:59] Voice 30: we need a majority. And a majority is just above the threshold. The threshold is 50%.

[1:22:05] Voice 30: So in the case of an odd number, for example, if we had 25 in the room, all of them voting,

[1:22:13] Voice 30: and so 25 divided by 2, the threshold is 12.5. The next number higher is 13, not 13 and a half.

[1:22:24] Voice 30: does that make sense majority is more than the threshold of 50 percent that's that's all it is

[1:22:30] Voice 30: so don't let the media confuse you when they talk about 50 percent plus one does a tie vote means

[1:22:36] Voice 30: we're stuck no a tie vote is exactly the threshold it's not above the threshold means that a motion

[1:22:42] Voice 30: is defeated it's not carried when there is a tie vote can the chair only vote if there is a tie

[1:22:48] Voice 30: guess what? Just like under D, the question connected to that is, can I abstain if I don't

[1:22:55] Voice 30: know enough about an issue? The situation in your case is, especially for those of you who are new,

[1:23:01] Voice 30: who may not know that, is in local government in BC, and you are part of the local government

[1:23:07] Voice 30: system in British Columbia. And so there's a piece of legislation called the community charter that

[1:23:14] Voice 30: applies to you so staff please correct if i'm saying something wrong here please tell me but

[1:23:19] Voice 30: this is what i know uh so um abstention under the community charter is counted as a vote in favor

[1:23:28] Voice 30: please remember that for the next four years counted as a vote in favor um russ correct me

[1:23:34] Voice 30: if i'm wrong i'm pretty sure that's the that it applies the same provision applies to to the um

[1:23:40] Voice 30: to the islands trust which means this if you are not paying attention let's say you are texting

[1:23:48] Voice 30: during a meeting and it's easy to get distracted especially in a virtual meeting as we're having

[1:23:53] Voice 30: today and then the mayor or the chair takes a vote those in favor of the motion raise your hand

[1:23:58] Voice 30: and it does it quickly and you didn't pay attention and then you realize later oh my

[1:24:04] Voice 30: oh my God, I voted in favor of something that I opposed.

[1:24:06] Voice 30: So please, no falling asleep when a vote is taken.

[1:24:10] Voice 30: Stay awake, stay alert, and mayors or chairs,

[1:24:13] Voice 30: do not push things through quickly.

[1:24:17] Voice 30: I found, just give you this example,

[1:24:19] Voice 30: very troubling from my perspective.

[1:24:22] Voice 30: I was observing a council meeting,

[1:24:24] Voice 30: mayor and council in deliberations,

[1:24:27] Voice 30: and then it comes to the vote,

[1:24:29] Voice 30: and the mayor looks at the paper and says,

[1:24:32] Voice 30: those opposed, none opposed, motion carried.

[1:24:35] Voice 30: Didn't even ask those who are in favor to raise their hand,

[1:24:38] Voice 30: only looked at the motion that was written down in a report

[1:24:42] Voice 30: and then said, anyone opposed, none opposed, motion carried.

[1:24:47] Voice 30: So from a community charter perspective,

[1:24:50] Voice 30: it means that everybody voted in favor

[1:24:52] Voice 30: and it was carried unanimously.

[1:24:53] Voice 30: But how many people are not paying attention?

[1:24:56] Voice 30: So I say the moment of voting is a sacred moment.

[1:24:59] Voice 30: Let's treat it as such.

[1:25:01] Voice 30: And so when you put a motion to a vote, let's repeat it.

[1:25:04] Voice 30: Let's display it on the screen so that everybody knows exactly what it is that they're being asked to vote on.

[1:25:11] Voice 30: So that just means that it's more transparent, it's stronger, more robust, and it's clearer for the public.

[1:25:19] Voice 30: So here it is.

[1:25:20] Voice 30: If I was a member of the public watching that meeting, transparency would be anything but,

[1:25:25] Voice 30: That would not be in evidence because they're taking votes without even showing me as a citizen what they're voting on.

[1:25:33] Voice 30: So let's not rest the vote, Chair Blackham.

[1:25:38] Voice 30: I know that you wouldn't ever do that, but just make sure that the moment of voting is not taken lightly.

[1:25:45] Voice 30: We invest the time in making sure that it's stated.

[1:25:48] Voice 30: We're now voting on this and this and this.

[1:25:51] Voice 30: Those in favor, raise your hands.

[1:25:53] Voice 30: instead of just sitting on your hands

[1:25:55] Voice 30: and being counted in favor.

[1:25:56] Voice 30: I find that that provision in the charter

[1:25:58] Voice 30: to be very problematic.

[1:25:59] Voice 30: It is there, but it's not very,

[1:26:03] Voice 30: it's not conducive to informed voting.

[1:26:06] Voice 30: So that's that one.

[1:26:08] Voice 30: And so the same thing, by the way,

[1:26:09] Voice 30: I skipped the chair,

[1:26:11] Voice 30: may the chair vote only if there is a tie.

[1:26:13] Voice 30: It's the same thing.

[1:26:14] Voice 30: If the chair does not vote,

[1:26:16] Voice 30: it counts as a vote in favor

[1:26:17] Voice 30: in this municipal setting.

[1:26:20] Voice 30: Unique, this is unique to British Columbia.

[1:26:22] Voice 30: I work in a different jurisdiction in Nova Scotia, it's exactly the opposite, abstentions

[1:26:28] Voice 30: count as negative votes unless there is a policy contrary to that, so let's make sure

[1:26:33] Voice 30: that everybody knows how the process works.

[1:26:37] Voice 30: Is it okay to rush a vote?

[1:26:39] Voice 30: Obviously not.

[1:26:40] Voice 30: Let's leave the last one, how are we doing?

[1:26:43] Voice 30: Any questions?

[1:26:45] Voice 30: I told you we'll take a break at about 10.30, it's about 10.26.

[1:26:52] Voice 30: Hi,

[1:26:54] Voice 23: it was something that came up during a recent meeting. Normally, I think we count

[1:27:02] Voice 23: those in favour and those against and in the virtual meeting setting that's deemed to therefore

[1:27:11] Voice 23: give rise to the number that have abstained. So my question was, in this situation where

[1:27:19] Voice 23: people switch off their cameras and may or may not be still present unless they've informed

[1:27:25] Voice 23: the minute taker or the chair, would it be appropriate to actually count the abstentions?

[1:27:34] Voice 30: Okay, so here it is.

[1:27:37] Voice 30: In this setting, abstentions are a misnomer.

[1:27:41] Voice 30: Abstention under Robert's Rule of Order means I'm not taking a position.

[1:27:44] Voice 30: I'm not taking a yes position, I'm not taking a no position.

[1:27:47] Voice 30: under the standard parliamentary procedure,

[1:27:49] Voice 30: abstention would not be counted as yes,

[1:27:51] Voice 30: would not be counted as no.

[1:27:53] Voice 30: It just means like, just like when a citizen

[1:27:55] Voice 30: is making a choice on whether or not to vote in an election,

[1:27:59] Voice 30: if they choose to not vote,

[1:28:01] Voice 30: they're not counted as having voted for a candidate,

[1:28:03] Voice 30: they're just counted, they just abstained,

[1:28:06] Voice 30: they just didn't vote.

[1:28:07] Voice 30: It's just that in this setting,

[1:28:09] Voice 30: and in municipal settings in British Columbia,

[1:28:11] Voice 30: you lost that ability, you lost the right

[1:28:13] Voice 30: because the legislation forces your hand

[1:28:15] Voice 30: And when you don't raise your hand, it counts as a positive vote.

[1:28:19] Voice 30: It's not something that I agree with.

[1:28:21] Voice 30: And if I were to write the legislation, I would take it out.

[1:28:24] Voice 30: I don't think it's fair.

[1:28:26] Voice 30: I think it lends itself to people voting on something,

[1:28:28] Voice 30: and they don't even understand what it is.

[1:28:30] Voice 30: It lends itself to people rushing votes, and it declares emotions carried,

[1:28:34] Voice 30: and people don't even know what they voted on.

[1:28:37] Voice 30: So it really isn't compatible, I think, that provision in legislation

[1:28:42] Voice 30: compatible with responsible governance.

[1:28:44] Voice 30: I'd rather, and I think citizens would rather, people raise their hand, I'm in favor, and you see it, as opposed to, what's going on here?

[1:28:54] Voice 30: I think citizens would be justifiable in saying, this is not a credible process, this is not a trustworthy process, because people are sitting on their hands, and they all count as in favor.

[1:29:03] Voice 30: But that's the reality.

[1:29:05] Voice 30: The way to remedy that is if the chair asks people to raise your hand in favor, and count the hands, and then it becomes more robust.

[1:29:19] Voice 28: Yes, thank you very much for explaining that so clearly, because I'm not familiar from my other board work and that sort of thing with it being counted as a negative vote.

[1:29:32] Voice 28: I'm sorry, being counted as a positive vote.

[1:29:36] Voice 28: So I'm just trying to wrap my head around how to behave around that.

[1:29:40] Voice 28: So, you know, not to make that a risk, you know, to manage that in the best way.

[1:29:48] Voice 28: And I'm thinking that, obviously, like I'm thinking about the scenario where the motion isn't clear to me as an individual, perhaps.

[1:30:00] Voice 28: And I'm not certain how to vote because it's not clear.

[1:30:02] Voice 28: And I have already made the point.

[1:30:05] Voice 28: I have said, I've raised my hand and I've spoken

[1:30:07] Voice 28: and I've said the motion isn't clear.

[1:30:10] Voice 28: Could it please be clarified?

[1:30:12] Voice 28: And it, you know, a whole number of discussions happen after that.

[1:30:16] Voice 28: And it remains unclear.

[1:30:20] Voice 28: And I'm inclined to abstain from voting

[1:30:24] Voice 28: because I'm sort of demonstrating that it's unclear.

[1:30:27] Voice 28: I can't vote on this.

[1:30:29] Voice 28: But what are my options then?

[1:30:31] Voice 28: And I'm not sure if I should be voting yes,

[1:30:34] Voice 28: or I'm not sure if I should be voting no,

[1:30:36] Voice 28: depending on what the meaning was.

[1:30:38] Voice 28: And I'm kind of stuck there.

[1:30:40] Voice 30: Well, I tell you what,

[1:30:42] Voice 30: there's some things that individuals can do

[1:30:44] Voice 30: and there's some things that systemically need to happen

[1:30:47] Voice 30: to avoid that situation.

[1:30:49] Voice 30: So to prevent that situation,

[1:30:51] Voice 30: given that everybody is, I think,

[1:30:53] Voice 30: most members of the body,

[1:30:55] Voice 30: plus the leadership are here,

[1:30:57] Voice 30: you're hearing that concern.

[1:30:59] Voice 30: and that concern is legitimate and valid,

[1:31:01] Voice 30: and there must be things within the system

[1:31:03] Voice 30: such that this thing will never happen.

[1:31:06] Voice 30: It's not only you, it's the system.

[1:31:08] Voice 30: So I would say you're justifiable in complaining

[1:31:10] Voice 30: if you don't understand the motion,

[1:31:12] Voice 30: you don't understand the impact of the motion.

[1:31:14] Voice 30: As a trustee, your duty is to cast an informed vote,

[1:31:18] Voice 30: and if you deny that opportunity, just say that.

[1:31:20] Voice 30: And I would think that system owes it to you

[1:31:24] Voice 30: to address that concern because it's a valid concern.

[1:31:28] Voice 30: If the system didn't do that, then the system need to be changed to do that.

[1:31:32] Voice 30: And that's why it's good that we're having this conversation here with trustees being

[1:31:37] Voice 30: present with the management being present in order to prevent a common situation and

[1:31:42] Voice 30: ever potentially very damaging situation from occurring and leaving you not knowing what

[1:31:46] Voice 30: to do.

[1:31:47] Voice 30: Thank you.

[1:31:48] Voice 30: Trustee Christina, Trustee Evans.

[1:31:53] Voice 22: Thank you.

[1:31:54] Voice 22: Thank you. I just wanted to follow up on what Mareed was asking, which I thought was a rather valid point.

[1:32:00] Voice 22: For example, my buttons got stuck a little bit earlier today.

[1:32:05] Voice 22: So if a vote is being cast and my buttons aren't working, then my vote is going to be yes, even if I intended to vote no.

[1:32:14] Voice 22: Is that correct? How are these things remedied?

[1:32:17] Voice 22: Or, for example, if the internet was not solid and I missed the call for the vote, you know, there are those types of things that are going on.

[1:32:33] Voice 22: Yeah, is there a redress for those types of things and her and and my reads

[1:32:40] Voice 22: question?

[1:32:41] Voice 22: Some people have had to leave meetings and may not have informed staff that they left

[1:32:47] Voice 22: for five minutes and then returned and may have missed the vote.

[1:32:50] Voice 22: So then their votes are also counted as yes under the system.

[1:32:54] Voice 22: So I think the question is, can those be addressed?

[1:32:56] Voice 22: Yeah.

[1:32:58] Voice 30: And I'm pretty sure virtual meetings have introduced this very, very, these very,

[1:33:04] Voice 30: very challenging issues. And they arise not only here, they arise anywhere over the pandemic.

[1:33:10] Voice 30: It arose a lot. I guess what I've found is the best way to address this is in the organization

[1:33:16] Voice 30: level. And I think I'd like to ask Russ, your CAO, if he can make a comment, because it's,

[1:33:25] Voice 30: I think both comments relate to virtual meetings and the challenges that they present, and they're very valid comments.

[1:33:32] Voice 30: I mean, if you say we're in a room physically, but we're not able to cast a vote because of a technical problem that we have, and we end up being counted as a voting favor, it's awful.

[1:33:40] Voice 30: It really is not something that's acceptable.

[1:33:43] Voice 30: Is there a way that they can let management know, hey, I'm stuck here.

[1:33:48] Voice 30: Can we please not proceed to the vote?

[1:33:49] Voice 30: but maybe the other thought is this the the thing will become more critical when this when when

[1:33:55] Voice 30: there is a a vote that is uh not of uh for example if the vote is overwhelmingly positive and um only

[1:34:03] Voice 30: two or three people have a having some difficulty uh then it the impact is not that significant in

[1:34:10] Voice 30: terms of the total result the total result would still be a majority in favor then in that case it

[1:34:15] Voice 30: This may not be as much of an impactful problem.

[1:34:18] Voice 30: Russ, your comment.

[1:34:20] Voice 7: Well, thank you, and I'll get David to help me out.

[1:34:23] Voice 7: The move to the electronic meetings has allowed more discretion for a participant to remove themselves than would normally be the case when we were sitting in a live setting.

[1:34:36] Voice 7: When a trustee leaves a live setting meeting, they get up, the minute taker notes it, and that becomes obvious.

[1:34:44] Voice 7: However, the electronic meetings, sometimes we get that feedback, but quite often it's just a quick three minutes and the screen goes dark and there could be an important question coming up.

[1:35:01] Voice 7: So in that case, it is very challenging for the chair, unless you did a roll call of all people who are in attendance before all votes.

[1:35:13] Voice 7: I think that would be, it would add to the length of the meetings, but that's the only

[1:35:19] Voice 7: discreet way I can see to address the electronic meeting challenges with voting.

[1:35:25] Voice 7: So I'll pass it to David, who's our parliamentarian.

[1:35:28] Voice 27: Thank you, Russ.

[1:35:30] Voice 27: Yeah, at the beginning of the meeting, Ali, we advised trustees that if they're going

[1:35:36] Voice 27: to leave the meeting, even just for a few minutes, just to send a quick note to Laurie

[1:35:40] Voice 27: Laurie Foster, who's the minute taker here, or myself, so that staff know who's in and who's out,

[1:35:46] Voice 27: because we use that to determine the quorum, as well as the numbers that we need to count for

[1:35:53] Voice 27: whether the vote passes or not. So if we know there's 25 trustees, for example, in the room,

[1:36:00] Voice 27: that was the morning roll call, and then two people have told Laurie that they're not going

[1:36:05] Voice 27: to be here uh for a few minutes and then the letters know when to come back we can adjust

[1:36:11] Voice 27: the count on the basis of those people that here the other thing that we do is when the chair calls

[1:36:17] Voice 27: for the vote calls the vote for those in favor and both myself and the chair are watching the

[1:36:24] Voice 27: participants hands and we'll confirm that we both have the same number and then um the chair will

[1:36:30] Voice 27: then ask for the votes against and then we do the same thing we'll confirm the number

[1:36:37] Voice 27: and then by adding those up if there's a difference those are the abstains based on how

[1:36:42] Voice 27: many people we believe in the room so at that point if the abstains are going to carry the vote

[1:36:49] Voice 27: in the past the chair has then decided to take a roll call in other words we go through every

[1:36:55] Voice 27: trustee and ask in favor or against and then that's how we determine it but if it's clear

[1:37:01] Voice 27: that um it's a pass or a fail and the abstains haven't made that decision then we just let the

[1:37:10] Voice 27: vote go and continue with the business we do not revisit

[1:37:14] Voice 7: the vote my last point is we have we

[1:37:17] Voice 7: haven't got a practice of um of someone indicating oh i missed that vote and then revisiting the vote

[1:37:24] Voice 7: to recounting a vote that has not occurred

[1:37:26] Voice 30: it's it's um a key question to will it make a difference

[1:37:32] Voice 30: uh in the results but but i think the idea of setting it up so there is a communication line

[1:37:40] Voice 30: for anyone is having a technical difficulty to be able to communicate to someone and that can be

[1:37:45] Voice 30: made should be made available to all trustees in advance of a meeting so that they they would know

[1:37:52] Voice 30: if there's something wrong with the connection there's something wrong they didn't have somebody

[1:37:57] Voice 30: to connect to and then if needed a follow-up is initiated so uh and trustee peterson yeah

[1:38:07] Voice 19: related topic um and this is about uh vote counting and i'm just wondering um

[1:38:14] Voice 19: when the recording is of the electronic meeting is being made uh is the computer that has

[1:38:22] Voice 19: that is taking the recording doesn't have the participants list up so that the public can see

[1:38:29] Voice 19: how the trustees are voting and this is actually sorry ali this is actually more for staff um

[1:38:35] Voice 19: that's just something that uh came up in the last day or so and i was just curious of

[1:38:40] Voice 19: whether that we can do that in a way that's okay

[1:38:46] Voice 27: yeah if i made sure i'll just answer that

[1:38:49] Voice 27: the answer is no the participants the public cannot see the participants list

[1:38:57] Voice 27: they can only see the trustees on the screen so they'll see the hands go up

[1:39:02] Voice 27: yeah so we do verbally indicate the number but we don't indicate who okay

[1:39:12] Voice 19: and I just if I can just to follow up is there do you think that that would be

[1:39:18] Voice 19: problematic in terms of that you know when we're meeting in public uh someone sitting in the room

[1:39:24] Voice 19: can see who raises their hands in favor or or against or doesn't raise their hands i'm just

[1:39:30] Voice 19: wondering if we could further that transparency a little bit for the electronic and we don't have

[1:39:35] Voice 19: to sort it out today it just occurred to me right now and you

[1:39:38] Voice 30: know what you they all the concerns

[1:39:40] Voice 30: raised are very legitimate and valid and so it i mean there's two things one of them is is my

[1:39:47] Voice 30: personal vote being it's evidence of the community how I personally voted compared

[1:39:53] Voice 30: to is the collective outcome clear so from a Robert Schultz perspective the

[1:40:00] Voice 30: most important one is to make sure that it's clear that when we say a motion was

[1:40:04] Voice 30: adopted that we had the requisite number or the requisite percentage in favor of

[1:40:09] Voice 30: passing that motion that's critical that must must be beyond any any

[1:40:13] Voice 30: any imperfection, but as far as individuals,

[1:40:19] Voice 30: that still remains a challenge.

[1:40:21] Voice 30: And I guess there'll be a time,

[1:40:23] Voice 30: I'm thinking some organizations are moving back

[1:40:25] Voice 30: to be in in-person meeting,

[1:40:27] Voice 30: but it's not changed the fact that

[1:40:29] Voice 30: as long as this system is used

[1:40:31] Voice 30: and you never know whether it will come back in the future,

[1:40:33] Voice 30: even if you return to in-person meeting,

[1:40:38] Voice 30: it's best to have the confidence

[1:40:39] Voice 30: in the full technical capacity.

[1:40:41] Voice 30: And it sounds like you have a fair amount of it

[1:40:43] Voice 30: and maybe staff can consider the conversation that occurred just now

[1:40:48] Voice 30: in terms of strengthening that electronic part of things.

[1:40:52] Voice 30: Trustee Bernardo, and then we can take a break when it's finished.

[1:40:58] Voice 18: Hi, thanks for the opportunity to ask a question here.

[1:41:05] Voice 18: I'd like to get a comment on something that may or may not be real.

[1:41:10] Voice 18: It's really about my perception of how these meetings are going,

[1:41:14] Voice 18: which is uh our meetings here aren't um just about making decisions um there seem to be our

[1:41:24] Voice 18: only opportunity for trustees to collectively deliberate often on a subject of a decision

[1:41:31] Voice 18: otherwise they're kind of out there on their own and you know they come to the meeting with

[1:41:35] Voice 18: thoughts but they haven't had a chance to work them out or deliberate uh with each other and

[1:41:41] Voice 18: And it seems to me there's a tension there between the decision making and the deliberation part of our job, which is it's obvious you need to have rules of order in order to have transparent and orderly decision making.

[1:41:55] Voice 18: and we certainly are doing that.

[1:42:00] Voice 18: But that emphasis on doing the decision making

[1:42:04] Voice 18: in that fashion seems to create a tension

[1:42:07] Voice 18: in limiting the room we have to deliberate.

[1:42:12] Voice 18: I mean, and I guess I'm asking you to comment more

[1:42:18] Voice 18: on how we can use the rules,

[1:42:22] Voice 18: maybe a little informally or in some other fashion

[1:42:25] Voice 18: and to manage meetings in order to keep the liberation analysis going when that's where

[1:42:31] Voice 18: we're at, when that's the stage of the meeting or the stage of an issue. Sometimes we seem to get

[1:42:39] Voice 18: into a business of motions and amendments to motions when somebody's registered a firm opinion

[1:42:45] Voice 18: as opposed to just saying, well, okay, we've got your opinion. You don't have to have a motion now.

[1:42:51] Voice 18: let's just keep talking about it. I hope that's clear. Anyhow, I'm talking about this tension

[1:42:57] Voice 18: between decision-making and deliberation. Please, perhaps you could comment on that. Thanks.

[1:43:01] Voice 18: Yeah. So

[1:43:01] Voice 30: maybe I'll share a couple of things and we'll take a break after that. One of them is

[1:43:07] Voice 30: this. When we say introducing emotions, emotion is a solution to a problem. And I find that in

[1:43:14] Voice 30: some settings, I end up recommending this. Before we try to solve a really complex problem,

[1:43:20] Voice 30: Let's discuss first what the problem is, because we've come up with a solution with emotion prematurely.

[1:43:27] Voice 30: It ends up not solving the problem and maybe creating other problems.

[1:43:31] Voice 30: This is not a Robert Shrulls issue. Robert likes to have emotions first.

[1:43:35] Voice 30: And then you say debate the motion. He doesn't like frowns upon informal discussion without the formality of emotion.

[1:43:42] Voice 30: And yet I beg to differ. My sense is that there are times when issues are just emerging.

[1:43:48] Voice 30: judging, they're at the preliminary stage of trustees beginning to understand the complexity

[1:43:54] Voice 30: of the problem and to come up with a solution and the motion prematurely will mean that

[1:43:59] Voice 30: we are being pushed to making a decision before we are ready to do that and the process in

[1:44:03] Voice 30: that case, although correct under Robert's rule of order, doesn't have that credibility

[1:44:09] Voice 30: of first fully understanding what the problem is, especially when it is big and complex

[1:44:14] Voice 30: and has wide ranging, not simple ramifications.

[1:44:20] Voice 30: So then we need that informal discussion first.

[1:44:23] Voice 30: So they may be used for to schedule some time

[1:44:26] Voice 30: over the next four years,

[1:44:28] Voice 30: thinking about strategic issues that need to be done

[1:44:31] Voice 30: and then having the informal conversations ahead of

[1:44:35] Voice 30: and then sending it to staff to come up with some options,

[1:44:38] Voice 30: which are then subsequently presented

[1:44:40] Voice 30: for consideration of the council.

[1:44:43] Voice 30: is that

[1:44:44] Voice 18: something that is that something that should be put on the agenda like specifically

[1:44:48] Voice 18: identified a discussion item for a particular topic like based for discussion it

[1:44:56] Voice 30: makes sense

[1:44:57] Voice 30: to me that that before we discuss a solution we need to discuss what are observations as to what

[1:45:04] Voice 30: the problem is and what are the root causes of that problem and the more complex the issues are

[1:45:10] Voice 30: the more significant it is to say before we put the motion on the floor let's have that discussion

[1:45:15] Voice 30: and once we finish the discussion let's say staff has listened to the discussion we instruct them to

[1:45:21] Voice 30: then we instruct them to come back at the next meeting and maybe come up with one option or if

[1:45:27] Voice 30: appropriate two options or maybe even more and thinking about issues that are increasingly

[1:45:32] Voice 30: complex with society nowadays then i think that approach may need to be brought in more often

[1:45:39] Voice 18: Is it open for a chair to say, if somebody's making a motion, is it open for a chair to say, thank you, we hear you? No, I'm not going to recognize that motion. No, we're going to defer that to later. We're just going to entertain it.

[1:45:50] Voice 30: Okay, so I'll put it this way. From a pure parliamentary perspective, the Chair doesn't have that right, but I'm thinking from a cultural perspective, we want to have the norms set for the Council and for decision-making in general that we – I mentioned that earlier, that motions on the fly and without advance notice and without the staff being able to explain to you what are some of the legal, financial, and other operational ramifications that need to be considered.

[1:46:20] Voice 30: in other words, the motion needs to be worded before the meeting rather than on the fly at

[1:46:24] Voice 30: the meeting itself. That would be my suggestion, with the exception being something that needs to

[1:46:29] Voice 30: be done on an urgent basis, and the motion in that case has to be done today, and there needs

[1:46:34] Voice 30: to be a good explanation as to why it is that we, in this case, rushed this thing through.

[1:46:44] Voice 30: So, we just need to give the board the ability to determine. So, for example, even if that's

[1:46:49] Voice 30: such a motion came and it's on the floor and it's being debated and some people think well look this

[1:46:55] Voice 30: is not as urgent as it may seem i move that we postpone that decision until the next meeting

[1:47:00] Voice 30: so you propose a delay that's okay too okay i see that uh okay so we'll take one more question

[1:47:08] Voice 30: and then we'll move on to the we'll take the break uh to see beverly yeah

[1:47:13] Voice 3: thanks yeah just a little

[1:47:14] Voice 3: bit of follow-up on on joe's comment there i mean i i experienced that frustration yesterday the

[1:47:19] Voice 3: the motion was on the table and I you know you want to talk about the bigger issue but you

[1:47:24] Voice 3: you would then be not talking about the motion and um so you hold off right and that um you know

[1:47:31] Voice 3: becomes frustrating um the other thing is just on a technical thing I pressed a button to raise my

[1:47:38] Voice 3: hand is it possible just to have another icon on the on the screen that you could raise for

[1:47:43] Voice 3: attendance you touch it for attendance and then you you would take it off I mean if we got one

[1:47:47] Voice 3: icon i'm sure we're able to add two yeah

[1:47:50] Voice 30: and and um i think with none i don't think i know that

[1:47:54] Voice 30: for example in my own organization the parliamentarians would ask sometimes we'll

[1:47:58] Voice 30: take a vote by using the raise hand feature and other times they'd use a zoom poll uh the

[1:48:04] Voice 30: different options for um for online voting uh so used for different purposes different plans so

[1:48:11] Voice 30: there are options certainly that the best party to give you that advice are your

[1:48:15] Voice 30: or tech experts, internal tech technology experts.

[1:48:21] Voice 30: Okay, so Trustee Falk, and then we can take a break.

[1:48:26] Voice 30: Yeah.

[1:48:27] Voice 28: Yeah, thank you.

[1:48:28] Voice 28: Just a suggestion for what I feel would really help

[1:48:32] Voice 28: smooth out some of the attendance before a vote

[1:48:35] Voice 28: kind of issues is, I know we're told to contact

[1:48:41] Voice 28: Laurie Foster if we're moving away,

[1:48:44] Voice 28: but you know that means I would have to get my cell phone out and text or figure out some way

[1:48:49] Voice 28: of doing that if we had the chat of function working and we established some rules around

[1:48:57] Voice 28: how to use the chat I think it could be a valuable tool so that if I had to go to the bathroom I

[1:49:04] Voice 28: could go in the chat and say I'm going to be gone for three minutes and then say I'm back now and it

[1:49:10] Voice 28: wouldn't distract i don't think too much and then but and the rules would maybe be no lengthy

[1:49:16] Voice 28: diatribe about the topic that's being discussed you know on the chat because then that would be

[1:49:22] Voice 28: distracting so that's just my suggestion good

[1:49:26] Voice 30: options okay um and uh so thank you and thank

[1:49:32] Voice 30: you for sitting for an hour and 48 minutes i appreciate that and uh we discussed things

[1:49:39] Voice 30: things went a little bit beyond my expertise on those that I've referred to the staff.

[1:49:44] Voice 30: How about if we took any, is there any objection to a 10-minute, unless you want it to five.

[1:49:50] Voice 30: That's it.

[1:49:51] Voice 30: That's it.

[1:49:51] Voice 30: That's a 10-minute.

[1:49:52] Voice 30: I think you need a break.

[1:49:53] Voice 30: 10-minute break.

[1:49:55] Voice 30: 10-minute recess.

[1:49:56] Voice 30: No objections?

[1:49:59] Voice 30: We'll resume at 11 o'clock, and at that point, we'll talk about the OFEEDs.

[1:50:04] Voice 30: That should be an interesting discussion.

[1:50:06] Voice 30: discussion. See you in 10 minutes. And thank you for a good discussion this morning. I appreciate

[1:50:12] Voice 30: all the questions. We're two minutes away.

[2:00:09] Voice 30: Okay, so welcome back.

[2:00:13] Voice 30: What we'll have for the second part, we only have 45 minutes for it, so bear with me if I'm moving with it in a quicker way.

[2:00:22] Voice 30: I just thought before proceeding with it, there's a bit of a loose end for me that needs to be closed, and it is this.

[2:00:29] Voice 30: this the subject of virtual meeting is is very challenging and very difficult and has been so

[2:00:36] Voice 30: for the past several years both for you and for me in my consulting practice it's i find myself

[2:00:42] Voice 30: constantly on a learning mode so my suggestion is based on the fact that concerns have been raised

[2:00:49] Voice 30: by you legitimate concerns about the process and understanding how it works and making it work for

[2:00:55] Voice 30: you so you can come as close to matching the standard that can be used in an in-person meeting

[2:01:03] Voice 30: and until that time there still needs to be maybe analysis more analysis done by this

[2:01:09] Voice 30: by the administration as to in the leadership as to the discussions just just occurred I did not

[2:01:15] Voice 30: expect it to be as the frustration that I heard I think are legitimate they need to be addressed

[2:01:22] Voice 30: rest, but I don't have the expertise. I'm not a Zoom expert, so I won't be able to conclude that

[2:01:28] Voice 30: within the time that I have. So if that's okay, and I'm happy to, I'm saying this to the members

[2:01:35] Voice 30: of the leadership and the administration, I'm happy to have a separate conversation within next

[2:01:40] Voice 30: week to address some of the things that have come up in this discussion. So if that's an okay way,

[2:01:47] Voice 30: then we can proceed to the next part which is the OFIDS acronym. So what am I talking about

[2:01:53] Voice 30: in this discussion? It's about how to have tough conversations, how to discuss difficult issues

[2:02:00] Voice 30: without it deteriorating in something that into something that's really uncomfortable.

[2:02:05] Voice 30: Maybe in ways how do we turn a problem into an opportunity? How do we learn from something bad

[2:02:11] Voice 30: and move forward to something positive as a result of it? How do we deal with difficult issues?

[2:02:16] Voice 30: And organizations I find often don't do it well enough, and this segment should provide some of the foundational components that you need.

[2:02:25] Voice 30: Okay, so what am I looking at? The story begins with something like this.

[2:02:30] Voice 30: The question that was asked back in the 80s, I think it was 1985 that I did my first parliamentary procedure workshop.

[2:02:38] Voice 30: Someone contacted me from University of BC and said, would you teach an evening class on rules of order?

[2:02:43] Voice 30: And I said, fine, I did it.

[2:02:46] Voice 30: And halfway through that discussion, a question came up that kind of threw me off.

[2:02:52] Voice 30: The question was this.

[2:02:53] Voice 30: It said, what to do about and the name of the individual that they were talking about?

[2:02:56] Voice 30: Let's say, for the sake of our conversation, Johnny Boy.

[2:03:00] Voice 30: So the question was this.

[2:03:02] Voice 30: It said, we have this person on our board of directors who wreaks havoc and he talks over other people.

[2:03:11] Voice 30: He interrupts conversations.

[2:03:13] Voice 30: he often is off-topic, he tends to be quite abusive and confrontational when he doesn't get what he wants.

[2:03:20] Voice 30: And so the question is, what procedure from Robert Southerwater do we use to get rid of him, get rid of him?

[2:03:29] Voice 30: And so I was taken aback by that question. I did not quite expect to delve into the sections on disciplinary procedure in Robert Southerwater.

[2:03:38] Voice 30: I did not think that would be appropriate.

[2:03:40] Voice 30: So there's two things that bothered me about the question.

[2:03:44] Voice 30: The question leads to the situation that often occurs,

[2:03:48] Voice 30: and that is when people talk about people instead of talking to people.

[2:03:52] Voice 30: And this is not a procedural issue,

[2:03:54] Voice 30: but it gets in the way of organizations moving forward

[2:03:56] Voice 30: and achieving good governance because too many conversations

[2:03:59] Voice 30: about frustrations that you have with so-and-so and so-and-so,

[2:04:02] Voice 30: how come he or she is doing this,

[2:04:04] Voice 30: how come he or she is being so unreasonable,

[2:04:07] Voice 30: reasonable then we why don't we instead talk to the individual and give the feedback it's something

[2:04:12] Voice 30: like uh so and so two things number one is we appreciate your participation on the board you

[2:04:18] Voice 30: consistent in attendance you were there for the full meeting beginning to end and we have a few

[2:04:23] Voice 30: requests of you it would help us a lot for example if you did not interrupt people when they speak

[2:04:29] Voice 30: you waited more patiently before you came in with an answer it would help us a lot if you keep your

[2:04:35] Voice 30: comment more concisely to the point so we're saying everybody is reasonable and if communicated

[2:04:42] Voice 30: to in a reasonable way will change their behavior the other thing that bothered me but the question

[2:04:47] Voice 30: is this are we talking about a bad person or a weak system if it's a weak system there is a

[2:04:55] Voice 30: problem if we end up removing the individual so let's say you're successful in going through the

[2:05:01] Voice 30: very complicated Robert Sewell's process in removing someone from office, which, by the way,

[2:05:05] Voice 30: is not a process that's available to you. You need to get along with the trustees who are your

[2:05:10] Voice 30: colleagues for the next four years. You need to maybe build a sense of a team or as close to a

[2:05:15] Voice 30: team as possible. So I don't think removal is an option. But here it is. Suppose they were successful

[2:05:21] Voice 30: in removing him, and then two years down the road, someone came in and joined their board

[2:05:29] Voice 30: with exactly the same habits so they're just as vulnerable because you never fix the system the

[2:05:35] Voice 30: process that they needed to to use when they have difficult conversation so um have you witnessed

[2:05:42] Voice 30: important rules being broken in meetings is a question that i asked for example i do the

[2:05:47] Voice 30: training sessions i'm thinking four years ago 2018 after the election i did uh presentations

[2:05:54] Voice 30: across the province to newly elected mayors and councillors that were asking the same questions

[2:05:58] Voice 30: that i'm asking now of you have you seen mid-sentence interruptions people interrupt

[2:06:05] Voice 30: in the middle of a sentence or maybe three people talking at the same time a big mess and you have

[2:06:11] Voice 30: a few people few people who are dominating and everybody else is looking and saying when will

[2:06:16] Voice 30: my turn come to speak have you seen off-topic remarks in other words people speak about a

[2:06:23] Voice 30: non-related issue and they consume a lot of time and we're completely off topic and you get them

[2:06:28] Voice 30: with it where are we on the agenda have you seen on the sea rambling people taking 20 minutes to

[2:06:36] Voice 30: say something they could say in two maybe in your case more like 10 minutes instead of two minutes

[2:06:41] Voice 30: or too much time being spent on an item uh it is some people put it this way they said the lower

[2:06:48] Voice 30: the stake sometimes the lower the stake the higher the argument we end up losing

[2:06:54] Voice 30: an hour on something that's so insignificant anyway then we come to a

[2:06:58] Voice 30: big issue and we end up dealing with it and concluding the vote in just five

[2:07:04] Voice 30: minutes it doesn't make any sense but time management too much time spent too

[2:07:09] Voice 30: little time spent on an item so that's another one and the fourth one

[2:07:14] Voice 30: Domination, someone having rebuttals, end up dominating the discussion, speaking 10 times, other people have not even spoken once, happens in meetings.

[2:07:24] Voice 30: Personal attacks, we attack the individual instead of attacking the proposal. Does that happen?

[2:07:30] Voice 30: And then toxic meeting environment, it's so poisonous that it's difficult to speak at that meeting.

[2:07:36] Voice 30: So when I do that, everybody has their hand up, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[2:07:40] Voice 30: and a group of, let's say, 70, 80, 100 people,

[2:07:44] Voice 30: yeah, they recognize that there's some problem.

[2:07:47] Voice 30: The question is, what can be done about these problems

[2:07:50] Voice 30: and by whom?

[2:07:52] Voice 30: Critically, that's the answer to the question, by whom?

[2:07:56] Voice 30: So other than accepting those problems,

[2:07:58] Voice 30: so this is a statement that I read to them

[2:08:00] Voice 30: and I say, do you agree with that statement?

[2:08:03] Voice 30: If things go badly in a meeting,

[2:08:05] Voice 30: we have no option but to suffer

[2:08:07] Voice 30: and then we can blame thee, and there's a blank there,

[2:08:10] Voice 30: for not enforcing the rules so in that setting when we have a mix of mayors and counselors

[2:08:16] Voice 30: what do you think the answer is in terms of filling the blank we blame thee someone unmute

[2:08:24] Voice 30: and say the word lame process

[2:08:28] Voice 5: uh

[2:08:29] Voice 30: it will be good that's here the answer that they give newly

[2:08:33] Voice 30: elected municipal officials it's the chair it's the mayor the mayor is the one to blame for all

[2:08:38] Voice 30: the problems we have in our meetings um yeah and and we have no option but to suffer is this

[2:08:45] Voice 30: correct and this is not correct a little bit correct but not correct completely this is what

[2:08:50] Voice 30: i say to you suffering is optional so certainly for this next four years please do not suffer

[2:08:57] Voice 30: uh you did beautifully just before the break just explaining some of the legitimate concerns that

[2:09:03] Voice 30: you have about meetings so we need to share rather than suffer explain what the problem is and

[2:09:08] Voice 30: request that something be done. Second one, whenever you point the finger at someone else,

[2:09:13] Voice 30: and in their case I said to them, can you please pretend like I'm your mayor and point the finger

[2:09:19] Voice 30: at whoever is in my direction, is guilty of not managing the meeting and allowing all these

[2:09:26] Voice 30: behaviors to occur. And so they point the finger in my direction. How many fingers are pointing,

[2:09:32] Voice 30: if you do that, how many fingers are pointing in your direction, is the question that I'm asking.

[2:09:37] Voice 30: one finger three fingers am i partly guilty or am i partly to blame for not defending my best

[2:09:45] Voice 30: friend the process that's the question question i'm asking you the question that i would like to

[2:09:50] Voice 30: address in the time that we have until um quarter to 12 which is my my end time so bottom line is

[2:10:00] Voice 30: suffering is optional we point fingers at someone else three fingers point right back at us and

[2:10:05] Voice 30: And the reality we need is everybody defends the process.

[2:10:09] Voice 30: Reminding you of the sentences I shared before.

[2:10:12] Voice 30: The process is your best friend.

[2:10:14] Voice 30: Learn how it works and follow it because you want to.

[2:10:17] Voice 30: Ensure that other people understand how it works and follow it willingly.

[2:10:21] Voice 30: When the process is broken, defend it.

[2:10:24] Voice 30: And if you defend the process, it will defend you and the council

[2:10:27] Voice 30: and the integrity of the decision-making process.

[2:10:31] Voice 30: So just understanding it and following it

[2:10:34] Voice 30: and protecting it when needed.

[2:10:37] Voice 30: So the question is, how can a chair or a member defend the process?

[2:10:41] Voice 30: The tool that's available is raising a point of order,

[2:10:45] Voice 30: and I will explain a little bit later what is the procedure

[2:10:48] Voice 30: for dealing with a point of order,

[2:10:50] Voice 30: and also give you a bit of a caution of being too quick

[2:10:54] Voice 30: to raise point of order on small issues that don't make a difference,

[2:10:59] Voice 30: that are not really all that significant, that will be coming.

[2:11:02] Voice 30: in. So what is the process to debate issues? The one that we want to protect, okay? To debate issues

[2:11:08] Voice 30: and have tough conversations, that's the OFIDS acronym. OFIDS, page two in the handout package.

[2:11:16] Voice 30: I want to explain each of the components. It may look like it's a no-brainer, but reality is

[2:11:24] Voice 30: that these things happen, and they happen a lot, and they sometimes happen with bodies that

[2:11:29] Voice 30: meet regularly, are experienced, have people who are sometimes mayors and

[2:11:35] Voice 30: councillors and they don't even think about employing the process to prevent

[2:11:40] Voice 30: something bad and to achieve something good. So this is what I'm saying again,

[2:11:45] Voice 30: the process is best friend. Let's look at the components. So at the bottom of page

[2:11:50] Voice 30: two, just six lines and I'll give you some tools to enforce the process. First

[2:11:56] Voice 30: first one is order, and order would mean one person speaks at a time. That's, in this case,

[2:12:01] Voice 30: Robert's rule is quite helpful. In order to speak in a meeting, you need to indicate that you wish

[2:12:07] Voice 30: to speak. There'll be one individual who will be, recognizes people to speak, and then you speak

[2:12:14] Voice 30: when your turn comes, which means this. It's not in order to have three people speaking at the same

[2:12:19] Voice 30: time. That rule is being broken. Who should address that? The chair could by saying, excuse me, can

[2:12:25] Voice 30: can we please have one person speaking at a time?

[2:12:27] Voice 30: I have three people on my list.

[2:12:30] Voice 30: In New York, it should be trustee A, trustee B, trustee C,

[2:12:33] Voice 30: trustee A, go ahead.

[2:12:35] Voice 30: So that's orderly discussion.

[2:12:38] Voice 30: This is what I sometimes say.

[2:12:39] Voice 30: It's unlike what I'm thinking.

[2:12:42] Voice 30: People, where the bad habits come from

[2:12:44] Voice 30: is what I call the dining room conversation.

[2:12:48] Voice 30: So happens in my own apartment and our own apartment.

[2:12:52] Voice 30: So for example, when we invite guests over,

[2:12:55] Voice 30: Then we have, let's say, brother-in-law and his wife and other people coming in.

[2:12:59] Voice 30: We have something like 10 people sitting around the dining room table.

[2:13:03] Voice 30: And we usually end up having at least three simultaneous conversations happening.

[2:13:08] Voice 30: Three, sometimes even four.

[2:13:10] Voice 30: And in that setting, will I dream of saying,

[2:13:13] Voice 30: excuse me, can we have one person speaking at a time?

[2:13:17] Voice 30: I'm trying to concentrate.

[2:13:19] Voice 30: That setting, the stakes are not high.

[2:13:21] Voice 30: It's not a big deal.

[2:13:22] Voice 30: So we just let it go because it's that's almost human nature thrives on chaos in unstructured conversation.

[2:13:30] Voice 30: But in your case, with something like 26 trustees competing for airtime,

[2:13:37] Voice 30: if you allow that to occur with people jump in and speak whenever they want to,

[2:13:42] Voice 30: you'll have several people complaining after the meeting saying something like I have several things to share.

[2:13:49] Voice 30: I even had my hands up and I was ignored because some people were too assertive and end up dominating the conversation.

[2:13:56] Voice 30: So if and when whenever you switch back to having an in-person meeting, you need to watch for that one.

[2:14:02] Voice 30: In the case of Zoom meeting, it's easier to watch because you watch the raise hand feature.

[2:14:09] Voice 30: OK, so order is one. Second one, focus.

[2:14:13] Voice 30: And by the way, the mayor or the chair is not the only one who would need to do that.

[2:14:18] Voice 30: it could be a member who is a point of order and the chair would recognize you

[2:14:22] Voice 30: and say can we please have one person speaking at a time I'm having difficulty

[2:14:25] Voice 30: following. So that would be the intervention. Focus is interesting in

[2:14:31] Voice 30: that we are supposed to focus on the current agenda item and on the core

[2:14:35] Voice 30: mandate of the group. Current agenda item under rule of order enables that by

[2:14:40] Voice 30: saying discussion is germane to a motion. So if a motion is made and seconded and

[2:14:46] Voice 30: debate is occurring usually we say recommendation to stay focused and make sure that

[2:14:51] Voice 30: the public and your colleagues around the table understand what you're saying it's good to have

[2:14:57] Voice 30: a structured way of communicating and focusing on the item at hand so for example um thank you

[2:15:05] Voice 30: mr chair i just like to share with my colleagues i have a very positive view of this motion and

[2:15:12] Voice 30: And I'm inclined to vote in favor of it for the following reasons.

[2:15:16] Voice 30: Reason number one is from a financial perspective, it's a no-brainer.

[2:15:20] Voice 30: It's clearly a very winning proposal.

[2:15:22] Voice 30: It's the most affordable one that I saw.

[2:15:25] Voice 30: Secondly, from a legal perspective, we've received advice from legal.

[2:15:30] Voice 30: We just listened to it.

[2:15:31] Voice 30: It seems like it's the most defensible from a legal perspective.

[2:15:35] Voice 30: And another reason, so we said another one maybe.

[2:15:38] Voice 30: And for those reasons, I'm in favor of this motion.

[2:15:42] Voice 30: And as of now, I'm inclined to vote in favor of it.

[2:15:45] Voice 30: We're saying as of now because we're saying that if I hear something that persuades me to go in a different direction, that's what I would consider doing at the time.

[2:15:52] Voice 30: So focusing, with that kind of focus, you also address the issue of efficiency in terms of structured communications enables you to cover more in less time, concisely to the point, point one, point two, point three.

[2:16:06] Voice 30: and therefore this is what i what i think uh and then focusing on the core mandate uh so here it is

[2:16:14] Voice 30: as a trustee your role is you're a member of the governance team so you need to be at what i call

[2:16:21] Voice 30: the balcony level not at the ground level and yet this is some of the things that i've seen

[2:16:28] Voice 30: over the years that i've been in this work one was this a municipal council and i was at the

[2:16:33] Voice 30: meeting observing and subsequently doing a workshop so i had to comment on this

[2:16:38] Voice 30: they were talking about a project a construction undertaking that they were pursuing and they had

[2:16:45] Voice 30: a report presented interestingly by two people one of them was an architect who was hired to

[2:16:51] Voice 30: present his professional expertise and prepared drawings done professionally and the other one was

[2:16:56] Voice 30: one of the counselors who also happened to be an architect so he decided on his own to go on site

[2:17:03] Voice 30: to study the situation and come back with his own drawings so he was off he was outside his lane

[2:17:10] Voice 30: his lane was and that's what i kind of established when we got back together is that

[2:17:17] Voice 30: the the the duty of a council member in that case had to be i'm here as a policymaker i'm here at

[2:17:24] Voice 30: this level the balcony level uh and i'm not here to be functioning in my expertise as an architect

[2:17:31] Voice 30: I'm here to serve in that capacity, making room for that external professional to provide their expertise in their analysis.

[2:17:40] Voice 30: Found a lawyer who put that very nicely on one occasion in a class that I was teaching.

[2:17:44] Voice 30: He said, when I sit on a board, my job is not to give legal advice.

[2:17:50] Voice 30: When I sit on the board, my job is to, for example, if I notice that there is a potential legal problem here,

[2:17:56] Voice 30: is to say that I think on this issue we need an external legal opinion.

[2:18:00] Voice 30: in. So it means I'm staying at that level and we don't lose time doing what end up frustrating

[2:18:05] Voice 30: staff in some instances. That's what I hear in some many settings that trustees end up doing some

[2:18:16] Voice 30: micromanagement. We've had that occur also in I'm thinking about another setting which was a

[2:18:21] Voice 30: regional board and one of the board members was very interested in a certain rezoning proposal

[2:18:27] Voice 30: proposal being proceeded in a certain way and she would approach a staff member and say you know

[2:18:31] Voice 30: what I can help you write the rezoning analysis it was the planner who had that expertise and he

[2:18:40] Voice 30: told me he didn't know what to do he said this this elected official comes and talks to him

[2:18:45] Voice 30: it's difficult to say no it's almost like a career it can be a career limit limiting

[2:18:52] Voice 30: move, so how do I deal with a situation like that?

[2:18:56] Voice 30: The message is, stay in your lane. People tell me

[2:19:00] Voice 30: that when I'm a parliamentarian. They say, stay in your lane. Give us the

[2:19:04] Voice 30: procedural advice. Don't start arguing with us whether this

[2:19:08] Voice 30: proposal is a good idea or not a good idea, because then you lose your impartiality.

[2:19:13] Voice 30: For trustees, impartiality would be quite significant.

[2:19:18] Voice 30: That's the focus issue. Efficiency

[2:19:21] Voice 30: see i mentioned that so the question is how do we manage that how do we make sure that the right

[2:19:26] Voice 30: amount of time is allocated to issues and members don't take forever to make a point 10 minutes to

[2:19:33] Voice 30: say something they could say into so a couple of things uh first one is the planning of the agenda

[2:19:39] Voice 30: so i mentioned that earlier so let's make sure that we look at how much time is available to us

[2:19:46] Voice 30: how much intellectual capacity is available to us in other words after eight hours what i find

[2:19:51] Voice 30: is people are not listening anymore so we cannot really be effective in the ninth or tenth hour of

[2:19:59] Voice 30: a long one day meeting because we're not listening anymore we're not as patient as we need to be

[2:20:04] Voice 30: and where how we got there could be that an issue early in a meeting took up way more time than it

[2:20:11] Voice 30: deserved no one stood up for the process and said excuse me why are we spending so much time on the

[2:20:17] Voice 30: issue when it's so small and by doing that we are losing precious time for issues later on

[2:20:22] Voice 30: on the agenda which actually need a lot more attention so can someone complain can someone

[2:20:27] Voice 30: say that can one of you say that in a meeting and help the chair with the timing so it's difficult

[2:20:34] Voice 30: i find that that is one of the most precious commodities in a meeting and yet one of the

[2:20:39] Voice 30: most difficult one to manage especially when sometimes i get elected officials who thinks

[2:20:45] Voice 30: they're kind of god and um actors or their god and speak forever take 10 minutes and nobody

[2:20:52] Voice 30: dares interrupt them because oh you're an elected official i cannot tell you to uh speak less than

[2:20:58] Voice 30: you're speaking now so it becomes awkward and difficult that's why i said earlier the the

[2:21:04] Voice 30: the self-regulation for each of you trustees,

[2:21:08] Voice 30: saying that I'm going to make a pledge today

[2:21:11] Voice 30: that my comments will be focused, will be to the point,

[2:21:14] Voice 30: and it will be short, to make room for other trustees

[2:21:18] Voice 30: to contribute their input and for me to learn

[2:21:21] Voice 30: from the 26 very talented individuals

[2:21:24] Voice 30: who happen to be having as my colleagues.

[2:21:27] Voice 30: So I'll make my comments because they need to be made.

[2:21:30] Voice 30: If my comment was made by someone else,

[2:21:32] Voice 30: i will not repeat it just for the sake of repeating it we had one situation when

[2:21:38] Voice 30: a counselor said i said that actually during a session and he said if someone else spoke

[2:21:43] Voice 30: for seven minutes i must speak for at least that much time otherwise the community does

[2:21:50] Voice 30: not think that i'm involved so what did i say to him i said well you can say i speak in favor

[2:21:57] Voice 30: something like i speak in favor of the motion as my colleague did and i concur with him

[2:22:01] Voice 30: And in the interest of saving time, I will say no more and move on.

[2:22:07] Voice 30: How much time did it take to say that?

[2:22:10] Voice 30: Less than 30 seconds.

[2:22:12] Voice 30: I made it clear to the public.

[2:22:14] Voice 30: They want to know where I stand on the issue.

[2:22:16] Voice 30: They get the message.

[2:22:17] Voice 30: I concur with my colleague, and I'm not going to take any more than 10 seconds to say that.

[2:22:22] Voice 30: So food for thought.

[2:22:23] Voice 30: It takes a lot of self-discipline.

[2:22:25] Voice 30: Some organizations actually do have time limits and do have timers, and it's important to do that in the case of a delegation.

[2:22:31] Voice 30: You have a 10-minute time limit, so I find 10-minute to be quite generous, quite frankly.

[2:22:38] Voice 30: I'm thinking five minutes might be reasonable, too, in making an exception on an as-needed basis

[2:22:43] Voice 30: and then giving maybe 10 minutes to a delegation that has a lot more to share

[2:22:48] Voice 30: and making that decision on an as-needed basis that may be more practical.

[2:22:54] Voice 30: So time management.

[2:22:57] Voice 30: Let me see.

[2:22:59] Voice 30: Fourth one, equality.

[2:23:00] Voice 30: So equality would mean, under Robert's rules of order, a really simple rule, no one speaks a second time on the same motion when someone else is waiting to speak for the first time.

[2:23:12] Voice 30: And yet what ended up happening, rebuttal.

[2:23:15] Voice 30: Individual was speaking, then someone else spoke and said something that annoyed them.

[2:23:20] Voice 30: I stand up, oh, you're misinterpreting what I said, and I end up giving another 10-minute speech.

[2:23:27] Voice 30: speech. And nobody monitors it, nobody intervenes. When the chair in this case should say, council

[2:23:33] Voice 30: so-and-so or trustee so-and-so, we have five people waiting ahead of you to speak for the

[2:23:37] Voice 30: first time, you've spoken the first time, you need to go to the end of the lineup. So

[2:23:42] Voice 30: we say no to the individual, we say yes to the principle of a level playing field democracy.

[2:23:48] Voice 30: So that one's quite significant. Equality for the sake of fairness, for the sake of

[2:23:53] Voice 30: informed voting and for managing difficult discussions. I'm going to give you two examples.

[2:23:59] Voice 30: We are okay for time, by the way, just in case you wondered. One example, the issue of fairness.

[2:24:05] Voice 30: I was asked on one occasion to chair a very difficult meeting for a nonprofit organization.

[2:24:09] Voice 30: They said at the previous annual meeting, there was one individual who was leading a group and

[2:24:15] Voice 30: they were asking us some very hostile, angry questions and sometimes attacking our credibility

[2:24:20] Voice 30: and our integrity as they were doing it.

[2:24:24] Voice 30: We want to have a different meeting this year.

[2:24:26] Voice 30: We want you to be the external chair for the meeting.

[2:24:30] Voice 30: So I said, fine.

[2:24:32] Voice 30: And I organized my standing rules for the meeting,

[2:24:36] Voice 30: putting the OFEEDs, order, focus, efficiency, equality, decorum,

[2:24:40] Voice 30: and safe meeting environment,

[2:24:41] Voice 30: stated them at the beginning of the discussion,

[2:24:44] Voice 30: right after I was introduced.

[2:24:46] Voice 30: And I said, please help me.

[2:24:48] Voice 30: I need your assistance in managing the process, and I explained what I needed from them.

[2:24:54] Voice 30: To line up at the microphone, wait for permission to speak, to focus on the topic at hand, to be as, we give them a time limit of two minutes.

[2:25:04] Voice 30: Equality, if you want to speak a second time, go to the end of the lineup, wait for your second turn.

[2:25:10] Voice 30: And then keep your comments respectful and help us maintain a safe meeting environment.

[2:25:14] Voice 30: I met. They pointed to one particular individual and they said, last year, she gave us hell.

[2:25:22] Voice 30: She is one of the biggest offenders that we saw at that meeting. And I said, I don't deal

[2:25:27] Voice 30: with individuals. I deal with process. The process is my best friend. I'll state it.

[2:25:32] Voice 30: And so I stated it. And lo and behold, she was right there at the microphone. She was

[2:25:36] Voice 30: the first speaker. She spoke. She spoke within the time limit, respectful because the rule

[2:25:42] Voice 30: was stated and the answer the question she asked was answered and then she said i have a follow-up

[2:25:48] Voice 30: question i said ma'am you see five people behind you you need to go to the end of the queue

[2:25:54] Voice 30: no hesitation the rule was stated it was followed she went to the end of the queue so bottom line

[2:25:59] Voice 30: is for fairness that's an important rule let's make sure that we don't have rebuttals back and

[2:26:04] Voice 30: forth and the majority of the people and their knowledge and their wisdom end up being left

[2:26:10] Voice 30: But equality also for informed voting, here is an example.

[2:26:15] Voice 30: In this case, I was just doing a workshop for First Nation chief and council, seven of them all together, day one and then day two.

[2:26:26] Voice 30: Day one, in the morning, I noticed that six of them were very active, very engaged in the discussion, and one of them was kind of quiet, not saying anything.

[2:26:37] Voice 30: thing but his facial expression told me all kinds of stories so I hesitated to bring him into the

[2:26:44] Voice 30: conversation because he wasn't raising his hand but at some point I couldn't help it and I said

[2:26:49] Voice 30: Phil what do you think about this issue and he said something and he said a little bit more

[2:26:54] Voice 30: and you could see the faces around him the eyebrows raising and when he finished people said

[2:27:01] Voice 30: Phil that was so smart we needed to talk more often in our meetings so he said well you never

[2:27:09] Voice 30: asked me he did so it's food for thought so how do we make sure that we bring in nuggets of wisdom

[2:27:16] Voice 30: that happens to reside in the heads of individuals who are naturally quieter and less assertive how

[2:27:22] Voice 30: do we do that so can we say from time to time is there anybody who has not spoken who wishes to

[2:27:27] Voice 30: to speak, or we've been hearing from the affirmative.

[2:27:31] Voice 30: Is there anyone who wishes to speak in a negative?

[2:27:34] Voice 30: We'll give you a priority.

[2:27:35] Voice 30: So how do we structure the discussion?

[2:27:37] Voice 30: We protect the process, equality,

[2:27:39] Voice 30: but also diversity of the discussion,

[2:27:42] Voice 30: fairness, informed voting.

[2:27:43] Voice 30: We need to be on top of it

[2:27:45] Voice 30: instead of just letting it get away from us

[2:27:47] Voice 30: and become a free for all.

[2:27:48] Voice 30: And everybody's wondering when we would get some,

[2:27:52] Voice 30: something done at the meeting.

[2:27:53] Voice 30: The fifth one, the decorum piece, I mentioned that earlier.

[2:27:58] Voice 30: People ask me, when I think about rules of order,

[2:28:02] Voice 30: I remember one clerk who said,

[2:28:04] Voice 30: I have Robert's Rules of Order, 700-some pages.

[2:28:07] Voice 30: I have a procedure bylaw.

[2:28:09] Voice 30: And in their case, she had something like 50 pages procedure bylaw.

[2:28:13] Voice 30: Yours is not quite that long, thankfully.

[2:28:15] Voice 30: And she said, I want to know which hell shall I die on

[2:28:20] Voice 30: because my elected officials often break rules.

[2:28:22] Voice 30: they don't follow it exactly into the letter and so i said to her well you know we're not looking

[2:28:28] Voice 30: for perfection just know when uh when in when a small violation occurs and it's not doing any

[2:28:35] Voice 30: damage let's ignore it let's not worry about it let's not sweat the small stuff uh but let's

[2:28:40] Voice 30: worry about the thing that makes more of a difference but decorum is certainly one place

[2:28:44] Voice 30: that my gavel will go down quite decisively i recall one time when a contested election was

[2:28:51] Voice 30: being held, nonprofit organization, three people on this side, no, sorry, no, seven people on this

[2:28:57] Voice 30: side, seven people on the other side, both of them wanted that, to control that word. I was running

[2:29:04] Voice 30: the meeting, I told them the, I gave them the rules of order, one of them was under the quorum,

[2:29:10] Voice 30: you speak about issues, not personality, keep the language clean, and then the discussion began,

[2:29:17] Voice 30: Again, so individual number one, candidate number one goes to the microphone right from the get-go.

[2:29:22] Voice 30: She says, the seven people on this side, on the other side, are a bunch of fringe lunatics.

[2:29:29] Voice 30: That's what she said.

[2:29:31] Voice 30: Gavel weighed down quite decisively.

[2:29:34] Voice 30: Ma'am, we cannot use this language.

[2:29:37] Voice 30: Remember, I talked about the quorum.

[2:29:39] Voice 30: Zero tolerance for breaches of process in these cases.

[2:29:42] Voice 30: You want to protect that process because otherwise it poisons the air.

[2:29:46] Voice 30: It makes it uncomfortable for other people to participate in the discussion.

[2:29:50] Voice 30: Let's establish the process and let's protect it.

[2:29:53] Voice 30: It's our best friend, the quorum.

[2:29:55] Voice 30: The issue of safe environment comes up more and more often.

[2:30:00] Voice 30: referred to it earlier when I talk about personal attacks against staff members which should never

[2:30:06] Voice 30: be tolerated and yet sometimes people don't like the message so they end up demeaning the staff

[2:30:12] Voice 30: member or the individual or even an outside consultant who may be presenting an unpopular

[2:30:17] Voice 30: message they try to minimize the significance of it by saying oh on one occasion it was me who was

[2:30:24] Voice 30: a professional making a presentation and the comment from one of the counselor was um this

[2:30:29] Voice 30: is all draconian this is 17th century we don't need any of this and essentially questioning my

[2:30:37] Voice 30: my credibility and my professionalism and i can tell you when i left to go home that from

[2:30:44] Voice 30: from that i felt sweats i felt like i was ready for a shower so i don't think you want to do that

[2:30:51] Voice 30: to internal or external professionals or to anyone to make the environment so poisonous that they

[2:30:57] Voice 30: would be afraid to speak now that one is a bit bigger too i want to share this example and i

[2:31:03] Voice 30: some of you who heard me speak before will be familiar with that story big meetings let's assume

[2:31:07] Voice 30: that this meeting is an in-person meeting so the story comes from sometime probably five or six

[2:31:15] Voice 30: secured before the pandemic even broke. So imagine this, 200 people in the room.

[2:31:21] Voice 30: They're to give feedback to their elected trustees, a board of trustees, not yours,

[2:31:28] Voice 30: but a different kind of a board of trustees. And so the issue at hand was really, really

[2:31:34] Voice 30: complex and controversial. And the composition of the room, you could say that about 80% of them

[2:31:41] Voice 30: were on one side, they wanted a trustee to do A, and 20% minority was on the other side.

[2:31:48] Voice 30: So that's not unusual, the idea is just make sure that we hear them one at a time.

[2:31:53] Voice 30: But what happened at that meeting was some things went sideways.

[2:31:57] Voice 30: And so the question is in terms of the defense of the process, did the trustees establish

[2:32:02] Voice 30: the process sufficiently, did they do what they needed to do?

[2:32:06] Voice 30: What happened?

[2:32:08] Voice 30: when someone on the small group

[2:32:10] Voice 30: side was speaking, they would often be

[2:32:14] Voice 30: confronted

[2:32:14] Voice 30: by, sit down, we don't

[2:32:16] Voice 30: want to hear you yell from the other

[2:32:18] Voice 30: side. People shouting

[2:32:20] Voice 30: them down from the

[2:32:22] Voice 30: other side. If someone on the other side was

[2:32:24] Voice 30: speaking, we would be

[2:32:26] Voice 30: greeted with, yeah, yeah, yeah, we like

[2:32:28] Voice 30: what you have to say, applause and cheering

[2:32:30] Voice 30: and sometimes the comments

[2:32:32] Voice 30: from the majority side towards the

[2:32:34] Voice 30: other side was quite

[2:32:37] Voice 30: insulting demeaning comment and there was not sufficient intervention to deal

[2:32:42] Voice 30: with that. What happened? The result of that meeting is the board was stuck with

[2:32:46] Voice 30: something that they did not expect. It was the minority group. They thought the

[2:32:52] Voice 30: meeting environment was so poisonous that they didn't stand a chance to

[2:32:56] Voice 30: present a perspective and so what did they do? They hired a lawyer and the

[2:33:01] Voice 30: intent was to say we want to prove in front of a decision-maker like a judge

[2:33:06] Voice 30: We want to prove that there was no intention to set up a good process that would enable

[2:33:13] Voice 30: us to be heard.

[2:33:14] Voice 30: We were essentially stifled.

[2:33:16] Voice 30: It was a job of the board to manage the process that was negligent in doing that.

[2:33:21] Voice 30: The result of that is our group was suffering the damage of that very poisonous environment.

[2:33:27] Voice 30: So we couldn't present our views in a good way.

[2:33:31] Voice 30: So here it is.

[2:33:32] Voice 30: you end up being stuck in front of

[2:33:35] Voice 30: either a tribunal or

[2:33:37] Voice 30: a judge defending the

[2:33:39] Voice 30: fact that you never defended

[2:33:41] Voice 30: your best friend, the process

[2:33:43] Voice 30: there was not a sufficient

[2:33:45] Voice 30: effort to protect the integrity of

[2:33:47] Voice 30: the process and in that case

[2:33:49] Voice 30: you end up suffering the consequences

[2:33:50] Voice 30: so I say for the next four years

[2:33:53] Voice 30: think about your best friend

[2:33:54] Voice 30: this is one

[2:33:56] Voice 30: an important element of it

[2:34:00] Voice 30: the office, order, focus, efficiency

[2:34:01] Voice 30: to equality, decorum, safe meeting environment.

[2:34:04] Voice 30: None of these are second nature to people.

[2:34:07] Voice 30: If you think about conversations that occur on the street

[2:34:09] Voice 30: and in casual conversations,

[2:34:14] Voice 30: they're not things that people think about.

[2:34:16] Voice 30: They get mad and they get to lose their temper

[2:34:18] Voice 30: and call someone, use all kinds of nasty, abusive language.

[2:34:23] Voice 30: So that happens.

[2:34:25] Voice 30: But around this table, we need that civility,

[2:34:29] Voice 30: we need that respect, we need that order,

[2:34:31] Voice 30: we need that focus, we need that efficiency, because the issues for the next four years

[2:34:35] Voice 30: are not going to be, don't promise to be easy. Society is facing all kinds of calamities. I mean,

[2:34:43] Voice 30: I've never heard about a drought in D.C., unthinkable, a drought in the Sunshine Coast,

[2:34:48] Voice 30: just happened. Never heard about atmospheric rivers and the floods and the wildfire,

[2:34:56] Voice 30: the heat and heat waves and wildfire that has been here but just food for thought we need to

[2:35:02] Voice 30: deal with those issues in a in a in a manner that trustworthy in a manner that's respectful

[2:35:08] Voice 30: and so the off-eats is a is um one way of or it's one of the components that you need to think about

[2:35:15] Voice 30: procedurally i want to share with you some of the tools and then we'll take some questions and then

[2:35:19] Voice 30: i know that my 10 minutes are about to run out in about my time is about to run out in 10

[2:35:25] Voice 30: minutes so page six in the handout package if you don't mind turning to page six implementing the

[2:35:33] Voice 30: office and that can be done both by the script that i've written here can be used both by the

[2:35:39] Voice 30: chairs or any of you and if you can come up with others by all means do there's no this is no one

[2:35:45] Voice 30: right way to do it as

[2:35:46] Voice 1: long as you

[2:35:47] Voice 30: do it as long as you commit to protecting your best friend

[2:35:50] Voice 30: And on an individual level and a collective level,

[2:35:54] Voice 30: the chair is one chief protector of the process

[2:35:57] Voice 30: and you are also a protector of the process

[2:35:59] Voice 30: if the chair misses something.

[2:36:01] Voice 30: So digression from the agenda, number one.

[2:36:04] Voice 30: Can we please get back on topic?

[2:36:06] Voice 30: Remember, I'm not saying anybody is a bad person,

[2:36:09] Voice 30: but people do digress from the agenda.

[2:36:11] Voice 30: And when they do, it takes up precious meeting time.

[2:36:15] Voice 30: So let's stand for the process

[2:36:16] Voice 30: and say something as in a sentence as one.

[2:36:19] Voice 30: Can we please get back on topic?

[2:36:20] Voice 30: I've even had one occasion when a staff member did that.

[2:36:24] Voice 30: And sometimes you don't think a staff member will intervene, but she did.

[2:36:28] Voice 30: She was trying to take minutes of the meeting.

[2:36:30] Voice 30: And she said, anytime, she shared that in a class on minute taking.

[2:36:34] Voice 30: She said, anytime my elected officials stray off topic, I just am patient for a little bit.

[2:36:41] Voice 30: But 30 seconds, my hand goes, excuse me, I'm just taking minutes for you.

[2:36:46] Voice 30: Where are we on the agenda?

[2:36:49] Voice 30: cute and powerful because she said every time i say that oh and they get back on topic so

[2:36:56] Voice 30: suffering is optional let not suffer the second sample uh interruptions or point of order can we

[2:37:04] Voice 30: have one person speaking at a time or can we wait to be recognized by the chair before we speak or

[2:37:09] Voice 30: can we hear people out before without interruption uh personal attacks we should be focusing on

[2:37:14] Voice 30: issues not people so we stand for something we stand for the for the process and it helps us

[2:37:21] Voice 30: um so that's that's the intent with it uh cue cards is something that i sometimes use when i'm

[2:37:28] Voice 30: a parliamentarian and just to show you in other words i don't say a word

[2:37:33] Voice 30: all i do is i take these cue cards and say are we on topic or how are we doing for time

[2:37:44] Voice 30: So, if I sit next to the chair, I don't have to say a lot, I just use the cue card.

[2:37:49] Voice 30: And if I need something else, then I might have to say, let's pause for a moment, we need to have a conversation.

[2:37:56] Voice 30: So, tools to implement the OFEADS.

[2:38:00] Voice 30: I think I might just pause for a moment because some of you might have questions.

[2:38:05] Voice 30: Probably the story that I want to share with you, you know what, I'll just do that.

[2:38:09] Voice 30: I'll share with you the story about the E, the value of public education, because that one I think was in a setting where it was one of your islands that might have been there.

[2:38:21] Voice 30: So I'll just do that and then we'll take any questions.

[2:38:25] Voice 30: Value of public education, this is what I say.

[2:38:30] Voice 30: You need to know the process, but you also need to be sure in the case of a public setting,

[2:38:34] Voice 30: When the public is, let's say, a big public meeting, once you go back to in-person meetings, that's what I'm discussing, then we need to educate the public as to what the process is, especially when the issue is controversial.

[2:38:44] Voice 30: So here's your story.

[2:38:46] Voice 30: I was asked to chair a meeting, a public hearing.

[2:38:49] Voice 30: And in this instance, about 200 people came to comment on a specific rezoning bylaw, and obviously there's people who didn't like the rezoning bylaw one bit.

[2:38:58] Voice 30: So, we set the stage for a good discussion by stating the OFIDs and emphasizing, for example, the subject of discussion at this meeting is the proposed rezoning by-law.

[2:39:13] Voice 30: The subject of discussion, by the way, I said, is not the elected officials who are on my left-hand side.

[2:39:20] Voice 30: It's the by-law and nothing else. We said that at the very beginning.

[2:39:24] Voice 30: We established the principles of decorum, respect, give them two minutes to speak, and we said if you want to speak a second time, you go to the end of the lineup and wait for your turn to speak once all first-time speakers have spoken.

[2:39:38] Voice 30: At that point, at the beginning of that meeting, it felt like maybe 50% of the people will naturally follow it because they understand the value of the process.

[2:39:48] Voice 30: but maybe some will test it and sure enough within 15 minutes one of them was recognized to speak and

[2:39:54] Voice 30: beginning to say oh elected a counselor so and so and talking about him being missing being having

[2:40:03] Voice 30: a hidden agenda and the gavel goes down and say sir if you remember 15 minutes ago i said no

[2:40:09] Voice 30: personal attacks and the subject is the bylaw not individual sitting next to me is that clear

[2:40:15] Voice 30: So he heeds that, he follows that, and at that point it feels like we grew from 50% to 65% understand the process and follow it because they want to.

[2:40:29] Voice 30: And after two more incidents like these, where we intervene in exactly the same way, it does not require a loud voice, just a clear understanding of what the process is, something strange happened that I did not expect.

[2:40:42] Voice 30: It was this. Members of the community were policing their own colleagues.

[2:40:47] Voice 30: And they would say something like, if someone was digressing

[2:40:50] Voice 30: and doing something they clearly should not have had,

[2:40:53] Voice 30: can we please follow the rules? Can we please stay on topic?

[2:40:58] Voice 30: They would say that. So here we go. We have support,

[2:41:01] Voice 30: because more of the community understands how the process works

[2:41:04] Voice 30: and values it, can understand that or appreciate that.

[2:41:08] Voice 30: We can have a tough conversation and learn from one another without leaving victims behind.

[2:41:15] Voice 30: So let's understand the process, make sure the public understands the process too in those settings,

[2:41:20] Voice 30: and let's follow the process and defend it when needed, and defending it does not require a loud voice.

[2:41:27] Voice 30: Just a clear understanding of what the process looks like.

[2:41:30] Voice 30: Raising point of order I mentioned earlier. That's a process for doing it.

[2:41:35] Voice 30: two things at the bottom why is it hard to raise needed points of order and my best answer is one

[2:41:42] Voice 30: that the mayor gave me when i asked her when she complained about what counselor so-and-so

[2:41:47] Voice 30: is doing all kinds of things described everything that are under the ofeeds and i said is there a

[2:41:52] Voice 30: reason why you do not intervene and she said it's not a nice thing to do and i don't want to hurt

[2:41:58] Voice 30: their feelings and this is serious business for the next four years you will hesitate to raise

[2:42:05] Voice 30: points of order because you don't want to hurt someone's feelings and the victim of that could

[2:42:08] Voice 30: be the integrity of the decision-making process i've seen it happen i've had it happen to me on

[2:42:15] Voice 30: even very recently when i was in a meeting and i had something sitting on me a dissenting view

[2:42:20] Voice 30: that ended up changing the outcome but i wasn't quite brave enough to share it until

[2:42:26] Voice 30: someone was poking me and saying is there something wrong here and you know why don't

[2:42:32] Voice 30: to speak up he didn't quite say it loudly but he hears this message so i said can we have some

[2:42:38] Voice 30: debate and i spoke up and that motion that was positioned to be adopted ended up being defeated

[2:42:43] Voice 30: because of what i said so what you can say makes can make a difference uh especially when you

[2:42:49] Voice 30: protect the process so uh and and your point also can can any point that you make can be helpful

[2:42:56] Voice 30: the second question there is the quest for perfection in demanding that the process be

[2:43:01] Voice 30: exactly perfect, as to the

[2:43:03] Voice 30: Ophid, remember that

[2:43:05] Voice 30: phrase I mentioned earlier.

[2:43:07] Voice 30: A caution about raising points of order.

[2:43:09] Voice 30: In ordinary meetings, it is undesirable

[2:43:11] Voice 30: to raise points of order on minor irregularities

[2:43:14] Voice 30: of a purely technical character

[2:43:15] Voice 30: if it is clear that no one's rights are being

[2:43:18] Voice 30: infringed upon and no harm is being done

[2:43:19] Voice 30: to the transaction of business.

[2:43:21] Voice 30: So a minor digression from the agenda,

[2:43:24] Voice 30: no big deal. Let's not

[2:43:25] Voice 30: sweat the small stuff. We end up consuming

[2:43:27] Voice 30: more time by insisting

[2:43:30] Voice 30: on absolute perfection in a meeting.

[2:43:32] Voice 30: as opposed to, in decorum, personal attacks.

[2:43:36] Voice 30: A toxic meeting environment makes it scary for people to share a dissenting view

[2:43:41] Voice 30: that is essential for good decision-making.

[2:43:44] Voice 30: That is serious.

[2:43:45] Voice 30: So let's intervene in favor of a good environment.

[2:43:49] Voice 30: For example, if you suspect that some people are sitting on some nugget of wisdom

[2:43:53] Voice 30: that others might object to and so they feel afraid,

[2:43:57] Voice 30: you might say something like this.

[2:43:59] Voice 30: members we've been hearing from the affirmative is there anybody who wishes

[2:44:03] Voice 30: to speak in the negative we want to hear from you we want to hear your dissenting

[2:44:08] Voice 30: view so chair trustee I come keep that sentence in mind is because as you hit

[2:44:15] Voice 30: controversial difficult issues over the next four years it will become difficult

[2:44:19] Voice 30: to share dissenting views let's make sure that the environment is safe so I

[2:44:24] Voice 30: I thought that will end, getting close to quarter to 12.

[2:44:28] Voice 30: Are there any questions?

[2:44:31] Voice 30: Any questions on the OFIDS, your toolbox for the next,

[2:44:36] Voice 30: part of your toolbox for the next four years?

[2:44:40] Voice 30: Make sure you know the process.

[2:44:43] Voice 30: This is a significant part of it.

[2:44:45] Voice 30: Follow it because you want to.

[2:44:47] Voice 30: If it's not followed and it's a significant breach,

[2:44:50] Voice 30: let it intervene in defense of the process.

[2:44:52] Voice 30: And if you defend the process,

[2:44:53] Voice 30: it defends you and your meetings.

[2:44:56] Voice 30: any questions are we okay you have um trustee allen uh

[2:45:03] Voice 29: yes thanks i just in terms of points

[2:45:04] Voice 29: of order i just want to clarify um do you have to put your hand up or can you interrupt

[2:45:09] Voice 30: yeah absolutely thank you a point of order is one of the only procedure that's allowed to interrupt

[2:45:14] Voice 30: the speaker so and we want to put this in whether or not you choose to interrupt or just wait until

[2:45:21] Voice 30: until they finish, it's up to you.

[2:45:24] Voice 30: This is my suggestion, if the breach is significant,

[2:45:27] Voice 30: so for example, it's just someone who is clearly off topic

[2:45:31] Voice 30: and the chair doesn't say anything

[2:45:33] Voice 30: and everybody seems to be, when are we going to get back?

[2:45:37] Voice 30: You seem to see that, then do intervene and do interrupt.

[2:45:41] Voice 30: But if it can wait for another five seconds

[2:45:43] Voice 30: and then they can bring it up,

[2:45:44] Voice 30: that sometimes works out better.

[2:45:47] Voice 30: Okay, any more?

[2:45:50] Trustee Luckham: well parliamentarian um i don't know if this is a test but your time is happening

[2:45:57] Voice 30: it's true and that's uh okay so with that in my absolutely correct is exactly the time and so

[2:46:04] Voice 30: unless they unless i'm allowed to i think i would say that there was one individual would it be

[2:46:09] Voice 30: would it be a question to address um morrison she's the only one let's

[2:46:14] Trustee Luckham: have deb morrison as

[2:46:15] Trustee Luckham: One last, she did get her hand up

[2:46:17] Trustee Luckham: before the clock ticked over

[2:46:19] Trustee Luckham: and let's make it brief.

[2:46:21] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[2:46:21] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[2:46:22] Voice 30: I'm conscientious of the time.

[2:46:24] Voice 30: Thank you.

[2:46:25] Voice 26: Not a question, just a big thank you.

[2:46:28] Voice 26: This is the second time I've heard your talk about this

[2:46:32] Voice 26: and I really appreciate this.

[2:46:33] Voice 26: It's important for us.

[2:46:34] Voice 26: Thank you.

[2:46:35] Voice 30: Good.

[2:46:35] Voice 30: Protect the process.

[2:46:36] Voice 30: Thank you.

[2:46:37] Voice 30: So that concludes,

[2:46:40] Voice 30: I'll pass it on to the chair to end my portion

[2:46:43] Voice 30: and then I can let you get on with your meeting.

[2:46:46] Voice 30: You're busy.

[2:46:46] Voice 30: You have things to address.

[2:46:48] Voice 30: I try to do that in a way that's timely,

[2:46:51] Voice 30: but also try to cover it in as complete a manner as possible.

[2:46:57] Voice 30: Thank you very much,

[2:46:58] Trustee Luckham: Elliot, for joining us here once again.

[2:47:02] Trustee Luckham: Indeed, I see applause across the Salish Sea here from my colleagues.

[2:47:08] Trustee Luckham: And I thank you very much for the nuggets of wisdom that you provided us.

[2:47:13] Trustee Luckham: and so uh i'm going to lead off with um uh looking at the remainder of our agenda here which we have

[2:47:20] Trustee Luckham: uh originally allocated 15 minutes for and i'm going to suggest that we have 10 items on our

[2:47:27] Trustee Luckham: agenda which if we spend five minutes each on each one of those agenda items um we could easily

[2:47:33] Trustee Luckham: consume an hour these and i'm going to list these in a moment but i would like to proceed

[2:47:39] Voice 30: so i'm

[2:47:40] Voice 30: to say goodbye now so it sounds like you're on a good track i'll just uh i'm following your lead

[2:47:46] Voice 9: thank you sir

[2:47:47] Voice 9: thank

[2:47:49] Voice 30: you very much have have a great term of office next four years and remember

[2:47:53] Voice 30: four years down the road you want to look back and be proud of what you've done this is one great to

[2:47:58] Voice 30: work with you thank you it's an

[2:48:00] Voice 30: honor to have you with us thank

[2:48:01] Trustee Luckham: you um i'm just going to uh

[2:48:05] Trustee Luckham: proceed here. I'm just going to list the 10 items, and if there's anything I've missed,

[2:48:10] Trustee Luckham: then please let me know. I think these are items that we need to address today.

[2:48:14] Trustee Luckham: On page 38 is the reconciliation item that we deferred at 4.21. On page 41 is trust council

[2:48:22] Trustee Luckham: schedule, which was a motion that was not tabled yet at 4.2.2.2. On page 44 is the trust schedule

[2:48:31] Trustee Luckham: schedule for the 2023. That's at item 4.3, and there's two items there. The other one,

[2:48:39] Trustee Luckham: page 47, is Trust Council Provincial Review, and that's at 4.4. On page 53 is a NAPTEP

[2:48:48] Trustee Luckham: covenant at 5.2. Page 55 is a DFO appointment at 5.3. On page 203 is the special tax requisition.

[2:48:58] Trustee Luckham: that's a 6.411 um we have disposition of delegations there's a couple there we have

[2:49:04] Trustee Luckham: correspondence one piece to receive and then our next meeting um which will be determined um on the

[2:49:11] Trustee Luckham: third item i listed at item 44 but those are the items i would like to uh address uh

[2:49:19] Voice 31: one rfd page

[2:49:20] Voice 31: Page 41, the second half of my...

[2:49:24] Trustee Luckham: I did mention that.

[2:49:25] Trustee Luckham: Oh, thank you.

[2:49:25] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, trust council schedule at 4.2.2.2.

[2:49:29] Trustee Luckham: And so I would like to proceed with those.

[2:49:33] Trustee Luckham: And I'm going to ask you to try and keep this

[2:49:35] Trustee Luckham: to within a manageable timeframe of five minutes a topic,

[2:49:39] Trustee Luckham: which would take us into an additional hour,

[2:49:41] Trustee Luckham: which would be one o'clock for conclusion.

[2:49:44] Trustee Luckham: I'm not inclined to take a lunch break at this time.

[2:49:47] Trustee Luckham: I apologize for that.

[2:49:48] Trustee Luckham: However, I think it would be more effective for us to finish the meeting on a timely fashion.

[2:49:54] Trustee Luckham: So are there any concerns or any items that I've missed that are on our agenda?

[2:50:00] Trustee Luckham: And I'll just recognise Trustee Boland.

[2:50:06] Voice 23: Just quickly, trying to learn.

[2:50:09] Voice 23: Is there provision to have a very short online meeting to address some of these issues

[2:50:17] Voice 23: before the next Trust Council meeting,

[2:50:19] Voice 23: but not rush them through today?

[2:50:22] Voice 23: And is there provision to address some of them by email?

[2:50:26] Voice 23: Thank you.

[2:50:27] Trustee Luckham: I don't believe so.

[2:50:29] Trustee Luckham: I think we need to press on and address these.

[2:50:32] Trustee Luckham: The items that have been deferred

[2:50:34] Trustee Luckham: were a couple of the sessions, and they have been.

[2:50:37] Trustee Luckham: I might suggest that there is some discretion

[2:50:40] Trustee Luckham: around item 47 of 4.4, Trust Council Provincial Review.

[2:50:45] Trustee Luckham: view. I think the part of that was here because we were anticipating to meet with the minister.

[2:50:50] Trustee Luckham: And of course, as many of you know, there's been a ministerial shuffle and that meeting may or may

[2:50:56] Trustee Luckham: not be proceeding and certainly if it does proceed, would be proceeding in a different fashion.

[2:51:02] Trustee Luckham: So perhaps some discretion on that single item, but others we do need to address today.

[2:51:07] Trustee Luckham: Tim Peterson on my proposed schedule of events.

[2:51:12] Voice 19: Yeah, Chair, and I apologize if I missed it,

[2:51:16] Voice 19: but uh did you mention 5.3 the dfo aquaculture and uh okay sorry that's all right

[2:51:25] Trustee Luckham: it was uh

[2:51:26] Trustee Luckham: rather quick and i had a chance to review it uh this morning and last night and so a little bit

[2:51:31] Trustee Luckham: further ahead so um that said i'm going to proceed um so the first item which was a great deal of

[2:51:37] Trustee Luckham: discussion, whenever that was, regarding the reconciliation committee at 4.21 on page 38 of

[2:51:46] Trustee Luckham: your agenda, and that is a motion that's on the table. We had quite a bit of discussion, and maybe

[2:51:54] Trustee Luckham: we'll get that up on the screen. Lori, thank you, and I want to provide the opportunity to

[2:51:59] Trustee Luckham: to trustee Elliott just to very briefly summarize the intent.

[2:52:05] Trustee Luckham: And then I would like to go to a vote

[2:52:09] Trustee Luckham: unless there's more discussion.

[2:52:12] Trustee Luckham: There's your motion that was moved.

[2:52:14] Voice 13: I really have nothing further to add chair.

[2:52:17] Voice 13: I'm still supportive after all the discussion

[2:52:19] Voice 13: of this original motion and yeah,

[2:52:22] Voice 13: would welcome a vote on it.

[2:52:23] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[2:52:25] Trustee Luckham: So trust counsel, I'm going to ask very simply

[2:52:28] Trustee Luckham: trying to follow all the wisdom that we've received just this morning that if

[2:52:33] Trustee Luckham: there's no concerns I would like to call for the vote are there any concerns I

[2:52:40] Trustee Luckham: see one hand up Joe Bernardo

[2:52:43] Voice 18: sorry Peter I know you want to sort of zip through

[2:52:46] Voice 18: all this efficiently but I am going to avail myself of the rights mr. Mina said

[2:52:53] Voice 18: said we have here uh oh please speak to it yes the timing of this uh given the

[2:53:00] Voice 18: energy that focus we put into discussing the budget yesterday and given that we're headed

[2:53:05] Voice 18: towards a financial planning meeting in january where we're trying to um come up with a firmer

[2:53:16] Voice 18: budget um i'm wondering about the timing of this uh it might not be feasible but

[2:53:23] Voice 18: the topic here is about resourcing uh so this report is it at all possible that we could have

[2:53:34] Voice 18: that uh in our hands before the january fpc meeting i'm sorry what report the report that's

[2:53:45] Voice 18: contemplated by this motion it says prepare report by march 2020 in by march for the trust council

[2:53:53] Voice 18: meeting but what that is doing is setting up a resourcing motion or a resourcing decision

[2:54:01] Voice 18: for the same meeting at which the budget is to be approved without uh the reasoning and analysis

[2:54:08] Voice 18: that goes into the budget uh being able to include the report i

[2:54:13] Trustee Luckham: understand i understand your question

[2:54:15] Trustee Luckham: now the CAO would be able to answer that.

[2:54:17] Voice 7: I think that this should be referred to FPC

[2:54:21] Voice 7: and if we couldn't complete the full report we would report on key elements

[2:54:29] Voice 7: to the best of our ability for your first FPC meeting and then as this report matures

[2:54:35] Voice 7: maybe we would focus on the financial elements initially and bring that to FPC so they can start

[2:54:41] Voice 7: to build a budget and then maybe the other part of the report which maybe some of the content

[2:54:48] Voice 7: elements would be the focus of so you would get the whole thing but let's say focus on financial

[2:54:53] Voice 7: details we'll bring as many of those as possible and then you have a subsequent FPC meeting which

[2:54:58] Voice 7: we could refine and then ultimately the full report to trust council without specifically

[2:55:04] Voice 7: saying we can get you the whole report in a week and a half yeah

[2:55:08] Trustee Luckham: so I think ultimately the full

[2:55:09] Trustee Luckham: report would be available in the normal process of a week to 10 days before council so is it

[2:55:17] Voice 18: feasible to does it make sense to make a propose a friendly amendment to the motion that says to

[2:55:24] Voice 18: prepare a port um uh by the you know and to file it with the fpc uh before the fpc's next meeting

[2:55:36] Voice 18: Well,

[2:55:37] Voice 7: I was trying to delicately say I don't want to do all of that because that would be a challenge, but that we would provide reporting to you on this topic on the financial elements associated with it, as opposed to the whole report for your first FPC meeting.

[2:55:54] Voice 18: Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's good enough. I mean, that commitment, I don't need to have a resolution or anything for that.

[2:56:00] Voice 18: I mean that if you're making that commitment that you can make that information available to the FPC in time for a meeting

[2:56:05] Voice 18: That's all we need. Thank you

[2:56:07] Trustee Luckham: Okay, super. Thank you

[2:56:09] Trustee Luckham: Deb Morrison on the

[2:56:12] Trustee Luckham: On this topic before I call for the vote if that's desirable

[2:56:19] Voice 26: Yeah, so my my only concern about this motion

[2:56:22] Voice 26: I agree completely with the idea of trustee work and a subgroup around the select committee or sorry around

[2:56:29] Voice 26: around reconciliation.

[2:56:30] Voice 26: My concern is that the report framing is too narrow,

[2:56:36] Voice 26: that there may be alternative options around

[2:56:40] Voice 26: like not a select committee, but a coordinating group,

[2:56:42] Voice 26: things that are more informal around this.

[2:56:44] Voice 26: And so I'm concerned that we spend staff resources and time

[2:56:49] Voice 26: that we may then decide to like have a different tact on it.

[2:56:52] Voice 26: And so just a question for the CAO, I think,

[2:56:57] Voice 26: if it was adjusted to say something about trustee committee work on reconciliation would that open

[2:57:04] Voice 26: it up a little bit more for the alternative options that were discussed I'm

[2:57:10] Voice 7: going to ask

[2:57:11] Voice 7: my colleague to help me out a little bit at

[2:57:13] Voice 21: this time I would suggest certainly we can prepare

[2:57:16] Voice 21: prepare options around the committee and other options but the coordinating group would be

[2:57:21] Voice 21: substantially more work than a trust committee at this stage right trying to coordinate all those

[2:57:26] Voice 21: external parties and um do that so at this time this is actually the more efficient method

[2:57:33] Voice 7: but keeping in mind that you might have a different horizon um we wouldn't duplicate that

[2:57:39] Voice 7: work if you said no we don't want to quite go this way we want to go to a coordinating group

[2:57:45] Voice 7: you i don't think you'd be wasting this effort in finding out this information but we probably

[2:57:51] Voice 7: would be able to go across the span all of the different options available to you we would

[2:57:55] Voice 7: initially come back with this one, which is where you've got sort of

[2:58:00] Trustee Luckham: more initial control.

[2:58:01] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, CEO. So are we clear on the motion, what the potentially implications are? And are

[2:58:09] Trustee Luckham: you ready for a vote? All right, I'm

[2:58:12] Voice 12: going to call the vote. All those in favor?

[2:58:24] Voice 8: 20 hands up.

[2:58:26] Voice 8: We have 20 hands up. Thank you. Please lower your hands.

[2:58:32] Trustee Luckham: Please lower your hands. One more

[2:58:37] Trustee Luckham: hand still up there.

[2:58:38] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Evans.

[2:58:39] Trustee Luckham: Just the Evans perhaps

[2:58:40] Voice 8: you're having difficulty lowering your hand. I

[2:58:43] Voice 5: think she just raised it.

[2:58:47] Voice 8: I

[2:58:47] Voice 12: call the next vote. Just

[2:58:49] Voice 7: move on to the next.

[2:58:50] Voice 12: I'm going to move on to any opposed.

[2:58:53] Voice 12: All right. Just

[2:58:57] Trustee Luckham: there we go one opposed. And so that carries, and I think Trust Council for support for this activity.

[2:59:05] Trustee Luckham: Thank you to everyone.

[2:59:07] Trustee Luckham: So the next item here is 41,

[2:59:10] Trustee Luckham: Trust Council Scheduling at 4.2.2.

[2:59:15] Trustee Luckham: This was a second motion of the two motions

[2:59:18] Trustee Luckham: from Trustee Yates.

[2:59:21] Trustee Luckham: And perhaps you want to speak to it.

[2:59:26] Trustee Luckham: And perhaps there might need to be some deliberation.

[2:59:30] Trustee Luckham: However, I think we also maybe want to move to a vote

[2:59:34] Trustee Luckham: as well but anyway

[2:59:35] Voice 31: yes thank you chair let come

[2:59:36] Voice 31: so the second motion was that trust council

[2:59:39] Voice 31: schedule at least two of the in-person council meetings to take place on the islands our mandate

[2:59:45] Voice 31: pertains to and there is background information on that second motion um i i don't need to read

[2:59:53] Voice 31: it out to you it's all in your package perfect

[2:59:56] Trustee Luckham: thank you trustee yates um

[3:00:00] Trustee Luckham: therefore are there any concerns or questions or are you ready to vote on

[3:00:05] Trustee Luckham: this motion? I'm not seeing any hands up so I'm going to call you to make the

[3:00:13] Trustee Luckham: motion. It hasn't

[3:00:16] Voice 27: been moved or seconded yet.

[3:00:18] Trustee Luckham: Yeah yeah I just asked

[3:00:19] Voice 27: Trustee Yates to move it. Okay thank you. Who's the second? We

[3:00:26] Voice 31: don't have it

[3:00:29] Trustee Luckham: second then i didn't hear the motion being moved actually okay

[3:00:32] Voice 31: i move that trust council schedule

[3:00:35] Voice 31: at least two of the in-person council meetings to take place on the islands our mandate pertains to

[3:00:40] Voice 31: thank

[3:00:41] Trustee Luckham: you do i have a seconder for the motion

[3:00:42] Voice 31: christina evans seconds

[3:00:44] Voice 22: that thank you christina

[3:00:47] Trustee Luckham: um so that's moved and seconded um any discussion deb morrison tim peterson so

[3:00:54] Voice 26: the one thing that

[3:00:55] Voice 26: I don't think I heard the other day was just about the staff effort to schedule meetings

[3:01:01] Voice 26: in different locations and so I just wanted to name that as something that has been raised before

[3:01:07] Voice 26: as this was discussed as new trustees may not be aware of that that there is a certain logistical

[3:01:12] Voice 26: effort that goes behind staff when it moves from location to location as opposed to being

[3:01:17] Voice 26: consistently in Victoria and Nanaimo as an alternative absolutely

[3:01:22] Trustee Luckham: thank you for raising that

[3:01:26] Trustee Luckham: trustee, I thought trustee Peterson's hand was

[3:01:29] Voice 12: up there, but trustee Allen,

[3:01:30] Voice 12: trustee Patrick. I just want to confirm that my

[3:01:36] Voice 29: mute

[3:01:37] Voice 29: thing is right in front of my ear. Is this two in-person

[3:01:42] Voice 29: council meetings a year? Is that correct, or is this in the term? I just want to confirm.

[3:01:45] Voice 8: I think this is for the first year. The first year. Okay, thank you.

[3:01:50] Voice 8: Although it doesn't say that.

[3:01:52] Voice 31: This is the second part of

[3:01:55] Voice 31: a two-part motion. We voted on the first part on Thursday.

[3:01:59] Voice 31: day. This is the second part that for the budget year of 2023-24, the first part was we allow for

[3:02:08] Voice 31: four in-person council meetings. This second part of the motion or the second motion is to schedule

[3:02:15] Voice 31: at least two of those in-person meetings on the islands our mandate pertains to. So Hornby,

[3:02:23] Voice 31: gabriela salt spring whatever

[3:02:25] Trustee Luckham: whatever okay thank you ceo did you have a remark exactly

[3:02:28] Trustee Luckham: okay thank you so are we clear and i'm going to trustee patrick i

[3:02:35] Trustee Patrick: i understand the intent of this

[3:02:37] Trustee Patrick: and i and but we also had very severe fiscal conversations yesterday i wonder if we could

[3:02:43] Trustee Patrick: refer this to to the executive committee but to also take a broader consideration of other ways

[3:02:49] Trustee Patrick: that we could as trust counsel visit islands to not only benefit the island but benefit the

[3:02:55] Trustee Patrick: trustees to get to know you know the trust area in different different ways you know sit in a

[3:02:59] Trustee Patrick: meeting for three days how much of the island do you see versus an intentional educational or tour

[3:03:06] Trustee Patrick: or other ways of visiting the island so i won't make the referral motion unless it that's something

[3:03:14] Trustee Patrick: something to consider right

[3:03:15] Trustee Luckham: so and in terms of focus on the intent here is very specific and

[3:03:20] Trustee Luckham: um that's a great topic for us to discuss but um this is the motion that is now moved and seconded

[3:03:27] Trustee Luckham: and Janine Dodds yeah

[3:03:29] Voice 20: I just want to say that I think what Laura mentioned um is is important

[3:03:34] Voice 20: that to yeah but part of the concept of meeting on the islands and having and me having had the

[3:03:42] Voice 20: the most attendance at those kind of meetings, there's absolutely no opportunity for trustees

[3:03:46] Voice 20: to actually get to know the island they're on. That's one point. Number two is travel to some

[3:03:52] Voice 20: of these destinations is quite complex for some of us, depending which island we happen to live on.

[3:03:58] Voice 20: Thirdly, I want to mention that all of these two motions, one of which has passed, and this is a

[3:04:03] Voice 20: backup to the first motion, part of this rationale for these in-person motions is that somehow

[3:04:09] Voice 20: how magically this is going to make Press Council more cohesive because we're going to be able to

[3:04:14] Voice 20: meet in person, get to know each other, and have social chats. I just want to remind trustees that

[3:04:20] Voice 20: we're not here last term, that in our previous term, we actually met in person five or six times.

[3:04:27] Voice 20: We met through all of 2019. We met in March of 2020. The governance committee was

[3:04:35] Voice 20: was narrowly passed back in 2019 when we were on Bowen.

[3:04:40] Voice 20: So the tensions that were with that particular trust council of that time

[3:04:46] Voice 20: were there prior to anything to do with COVID

[3:04:49] Voice 20: and shutting down of in-person meetings.

[3:04:51] Voice 20: So I do not personally believe in-person or not in-person

[3:04:55] Voice 20: is what impacts how

[3:04:57] Voice 19: our session is happening.

[3:04:58] Voice 20: Oh, sorry.

[3:04:59] Voice 20: I'm not speaking for motion.

[3:05:01] Voice 20: Sorry.

[3:05:02] Voice 20: Point of order.

[3:05:03] Voice 20: Go ahead.

[3:05:04] Voice 20: Okay.

[3:05:05] Voice 19: Yeah, exactly. The in-person part's done. We're talking about the islands part. Relevance.

[3:05:12] Voice 20: Okay, so going back, you're right. Going back to the on the islands, if the goal of being on the islands is that we actually get to see the islands, then we should be doing that, as Laura suggested, in a different format. Thank you.

[3:05:26] Trustee Luckham: Thank you. Sam Borthwick on the question.

[3:05:32] Trustee Luckham: question uh

[3:05:33] Voice 15: yeah it just occurs to me a lot of this discussion and and I think quite rightly

[3:05:37] Voice 15: there's concern about uh accessibility and resources and and facilities that are available

[3:05:42] Voice 15: on on some islands not all islands are alike strangely enough um it occurs to me that this

[3:05:50] Voice 15: this motion doesn't necessarily mean that we would have to take in-person meetings to every island

[3:05:56] Voice 15: If there are islands that we deem as a council that are not suitable or we don't want to take this to, it seems to me that it's still preferable to, say, go to Salt Spring and to reinvest that money into the trust area as opposed to having these held in Victoria, which is quite remote from where we actually are responsible for.

[3:06:23] Voice 15: for that's I just we don't necessarily need to go to every island we could pick islands that are

[3:06:28] Voice 15: well suited to the purpose so

[3:06:30] Trustee Luckham: thank you Sam we are actually only talking about two islands and I

[3:06:34] Trustee Luckham: think the staff will certainly be making that selection based upon accessibility and travel

[3:06:39] Trustee Luckham: and technology and accommodation accordingly so with that said trustee Dodds you could lower your

[3:06:48] Trustee Luckham: hand and trustee do you need to speak any further yes

[3:06:51] Voice 31: i do want to make one quick comment um about

[3:06:54] Voice 31: whether or not we get to see those islands that we visit i made that quite clear at the top of page

[3:07:00] Voice 31: 42 for the last 35 years sometimes at council meetings sometimes as a reporter i have been

[3:07:09] Voice 31: seeing those islands because on day

[3:07:11] Voice 31: two of council there's usually a special field trip and in fact

[3:07:15] Voice 31: That's where I saw the brand-new library and the lighthouse renovations on Main Island, and I thought that was really special.

[3:07:22] Trustee Luckham: Okay. Thank you. David Graham, and then I would really like to call the vote. David Graham.

[3:07:29] Voice 6: Thank you, Chair. Fairly quickly, the motion doesn't preclude us choosing one island for those two meetings, such as Salt Spring. Thank you.

[3:07:37] Voice 6: Good

[3:07:39] Trustee Luckham: point, David. And that's fine. So no further remarks or questions, then I will call the vote.

[3:07:47] Trustee Luckham: So the motion is on your screen. All those in favor? What do we got here, David?

[3:08:06] Trustee Luckham: I've got 12.

[3:08:07] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, 12 hands up. Okay, so please lower your hands, trustees. And now lower your hands,

[3:08:20] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Yates. And now those opposed, please raise your hands.

[3:08:31] Trustee Luckham: and so that's eight eight opposed okay agreed and so then that motion carries so thank you very much

[3:08:39] Trustee Luckham: council i'm going to move along here now uh and i'll get um ready to put the next motions up on

[3:08:46] Trustee Luckham: the screen here we have two items here at 4.3 on page 44 which is the trust council schedule for

[3:08:56] Trustee Luckham: 2023 item

[3:09:04] Voice 8: 4.3 there we go thanks to you no oh

[3:09:17] Trustee Luckham: i see that's just a partly reconstructed motion

[3:09:20] Trustee Luckham: right so there's uh 4.3 one is um uh the meeting dates that are being proposed by staff um are

[3:09:28] Trustee Luckham: there any concerns with respect to the meeting dates and i'll recognize uh uh trustee hunter

[3:09:34] Trustee Luckham: and I'll look for somebody to move the motion if that's all right Trustee Hunter my

[3:09:41] Voice 25: apologies I

[3:09:42] Voice 25: forgot to take my hand down oh

[3:09:44] Trustee Luckham: there we go Deb Morrison um

[3:09:47] Voice 26: I was curious about the December 5th

[3:09:50] Voice 26: to 7th date why it's so late instead of um in November because I thought that meeting was

[3:09:56] Voice 26: usually in November um and that is landing immediately on top of the UN cop meeting next

[3:10:02] Voice 26: year for me right

[3:10:04] Voice 27: thank you david marlin yeah trust council policy has the meetings established

[3:10:10] Voice 27: in the months that you see there so it is december november is only for the first meeting after the

[3:10:16] Voice 27: election

[3:10:16] Voice 12: right

[3:10:17] Voice 27: um

[3:10:18] Trustee Luckham: i'm sorry about that conflict trustee morrison but that's actually just the

[3:10:24] Trustee Luckham: beginning of december has traditionally been the winter meeting um any further discussion

[3:10:29] Trustee Luckham: Then I'm going to call for somebody to move the motion, please, and please read it out.

[3:10:39] Trustee Patrick: I will also move that Trust Council adopt the following meeting dates for its 2023 schedule,

[3:10:46] Trustee Patrick: March 7th to 9th, June 27th to 29th, September 26th to 28th, and December 5th to 7th.

[3:10:54] Trustee Luckham: Thank you very much.

[3:10:57] Trustee Luckham: to have a seconder,

[3:10:58] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Sue Ellen Fast.

[3:11:00] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[3:11:00] Trustee Luckham: Any further discussion?

[3:11:03] Trustee Luckham: Is your hand up for discussion, Susan Yates?

[3:11:05] Trustee Luckham: Oh, no, I'm sorry.

[3:11:06] Trustee Luckham: I just can't get it going now.

[3:11:09] Trustee Luckham: Such is technology.

[3:11:10] Trustee Luckham: I'm just going to go to the vote then

[3:11:12] Trustee Luckham: because I don't see anybody else

[3:11:13] Trustee Luckham: and you can leave your hand up then.

[3:11:15] Trustee Luckham: So all those in favor or not,

[3:11:17] Trustee Luckham: depending on your preference.

[3:11:23] Trustee Luckham: All right.

[3:11:23] Trustee Luckham: I'll ask trustees to lower your hands.

[3:11:27] Trustee Luckham: that look like 22 i'm not sure what our quorum is but it's pretty close we have 24 trustees all

[3:11:33] Trustee Luckham: right thank you um so any opposed any opposed none opposed that carries and uh thank you very much

[3:11:43] Trustee Luckham: council so the next motion now is uh the locations obviously we've now made a slight alteration to

[3:11:52] Trustee Luckham: have those in person and that that motion would have to be altered accordingly uh ceo hudson

[3:11:59] Trustee Luckham: yeah

[3:11:59] Voice 7: so thanks very much um indeed so there's two ways you can go um or you could go march

[3:12:05] Voice 7: in person in imo june brackets pending september back brackets pending uh december um brackets

[3:12:14] Voice 7: victoria as has normally been the case and then in march we'll bring you back a couple of options for

[3:12:20] Voice 7: for the island versions,

[3:12:23] Voice 7: or if you want to get creative right now,

[3:12:25] Voice 7: you could start to plug in those June and September meetings.

[3:12:29] Voice 7: I'd recommend the first one.

[3:12:31] Voice 7: I would suggest we

[3:12:32] Trustee Luckham: go with pending

[3:12:32] Trustee Luckham: as so staff can sort out availability

[3:12:35] Trustee Luckham: and transportation, et cetera.

[3:12:37] Trustee Luckham: Is there somebody prepared to not make a motion on the fly,

[3:12:41] Trustee Luckham: but make a motion with the wording recommended?

[3:12:44] Trustee Luckham: Sue Ellenfest.

[3:12:45] Voice 5: Yes, I move that trust council adopt

[3:12:47] Voice 5: adopt the following meeting locations for its 2023 schedule March in-person Nanaimo June pending

[3:12:54] Voice 5: September pending December in-person Victoria and

[3:13:00] Trustee Luckham: that can always be revised can I

[3:13:01] Voice 27: just come in

[3:13:02] Voice 27: yeah so the requirement is that you have to post a notice under your bylaw of the uh the date the

[3:13:10] Voice 27: time and the location of your meetings you have to post that once a year for the meetings for the

[3:13:15] Voice 27: year yes so we're not we're not going to be able to do that now to meet the bylaw we would not be

[3:13:21] Voice 27: able to do that until march so if you won't be pending we'll be able to post it the location for

[3:13:28] Voice 27: everybody we're forcing a bad decision i know i'm just letting you know that okay thanks um

[3:13:35] i'm satisfied to

[3:13:36] Voice 7: proceed with this because i i would think that salt spring would likely be

[3:13:40] Voice 7: unlikely location iteration and one other Gabriel

[3:13:44] Voice 27: problem yes I don't think

[3:13:47] Voice 27: we're gonna run a foul of anything here all right if I may you won't the bile as

[3:13:52] Voice 27: long as it pulsed it's just the timing yes it's going to be late from the year

[3:13:56] Voice 27: that we would normally pulse time right I

[3:13:58] Voice 27: can understand okay

[3:13:59] Trustee Luckham: then I don't see

[3:14:00] Trustee Luckham: any hands up I saw Ben's I need a second second

[3:14:04] Voice 31: second by

[3:14:05] Trustee Luckham: Susan Yates thank you

[3:14:06] Trustee Luckham: and also uh note uh ben maybe i saw his hand up as well but let's go with susan yates she was first

[3:14:13] Trustee Luckham: and so um is there any further discussion and i'll call the uh trustee allen you jump in the

[3:14:22] Trustee Luckham: guy yes

[3:14:23] Voice 29: sorry i'm probably jumping in the gun although

[3:14:26] Trustee Luckham: i appreciate everybody's trying to be

[3:14:29] Trustee Luckham: really effective um let's wait for me to call for it accordingly so all those in favor please raise

[3:14:36] Trustee Luckham: Raise your hands.

[3:14:36] Voice 12: That button

[3:14:45] Voice 27: doesn't always go.

[3:14:46] Voice 12: Yeah,

[3:14:46] Voice 27: I'm seeing a 20, 21, 22.

[3:14:52] Voice 27: 22 in favor.

[3:14:53] Trustee Luckham: Right, so 22 in favor.

[3:14:55] Trustee Luckham: Please lower your hands, council.

[3:15:00] Trustee Luckham: And lowering hands, then lower your hands

[3:15:08] Trustee Luckham: unless you're voting opposed already.

[3:15:10] Trustee Luckham: You know, sometimes it just won't come down.

[3:15:14] Trustee Luckham: I'm gonna proceed.

[3:15:16] Trustee Luckham: All those opposed?

[3:15:17] Trustee Luckham: And I'm gonna ignore Susan Yates' stand.

[3:15:20] Trustee Luckham: and none opposed so that carries unanimously thank you so that does it for 44. so now the

[3:15:27] Trustee Luckham: one where i considered there might be some um uh discretion because it could also be quite a

[3:15:33] Trustee Luckham: lengthy discussion uh at 4.4 is trust council provincial review there was this was brought

[3:15:40] Trustee Luckham: forward uh does somebody have some staff have some remarks about how this got onto our agenda

[3:15:45] Trustee Luckham: I, there was an interesting council reaffirming the request that we made.

[3:15:51] Voice 26: Okay, Deb

[3:15:53] Voice 26: Morrison. Sorry, could we just get a page?

[3:15:57] Voice 12: Page 47. So this is just simply a briefing.

[3:16:16] Trustee Luckham: I'm going to suggest that we receive this for information, but I want to go to Trustees

[3:16:21] Trustee Luckham: Patrick and Peterson to see what you, if you have some alternative proposal.

[3:16:27] Trustee Luckham: proposal.

[3:16:27] Trustee Patrick: The motion as it's stated on the follow-up action list on page five was that this

[3:16:33] Trustee Patrick: RFDB brought back for reconsideration at this meeting. It's been proposed so that that was the

[3:16:41] Trustee Patrick: intent is that the motion on the June RFDB reconsidered.

[3:16:50] Voice 7: Yeah reconsideration has like

[3:16:53] Voice 7: It says for consideration.

[3:16:55] Voice 12: I

[3:16:55] Voice 7: believe it says for consideration.

[3:17:02] Voice 8: It does say for, not for reconsideration,

[3:17:06] Trustee Luckham: but it says for consideration.

[3:17:08] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[3:17:11] Trustee Patrick: May I speak?

[3:17:12] Trustee Luckham: Yes.

[3:17:13] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, no, I think that was the intent,

[3:17:16] Trustee Patrick: was that Minister Cullen wanted to hear from these trustees

[3:17:18] Trustee Patrick: to know, you know, do we concur with that request

[3:17:22] Trustee Patrick: that was made from June?

[3:17:27] Voice 8: Correct.

[3:17:27] Voice 8: Correct.

[3:17:28] Trustee Luckham: And I would say the ministry at this point has made that request from Minister Cullen, who is no longer in that seat.

[3:17:37] Trustee Luckham: So I think executive committee would fully expect to continue to advance this, despite the letter that we received from the minister.

[3:17:48] Trustee Luckham: We had a meeting with Minister Cullen scheduled for the 14th.

[3:17:53] Trustee Luckham: We're not sure if that meeting is going ahead with the new minister or not.

[3:17:56] Trustee Luckham: uh ceo hudson do you have any advice i

[3:17:59] Voice 7: think the request for the meeting because there's

[3:18:01] Voice 7: some preliminary agenda items gone back and forth was how's the governance report working

[3:18:06] Voice 7: um what are some of the elements that you're considering moving forward with

[3:18:11] Voice 7: um who's on the who's the new trust council who's the new chair and executive committee so

[3:18:17] Voice 7: um it was it was that level i don't think it was specifically to address the grander question that

[3:18:25] Voice 7: this letter asks for because the letter itself asks for some things to be done prior to doing

[3:18:34] Voice 7: that notwithstanding that trust council can re-ask whatever it feels like yes um but the the initial

[3:18:40] Voice 7: letter or the ask for the meeting was as i've

[3:18:44] Trustee Luckham: just stated those two things so in terms of timing and

[3:18:47] Trustee Luckham: i'm going to come to my speakers list here it may be that this should come back to us in march for

[3:18:51] Trustee Luckham: consideration. But Trustee Morrison, over to you.

[3:18:56] Voice 26: So I did want us to pause for a second because

[3:18:59] Voice 26: I feel like this is a complicated set of paperwork and I'm not sure that everyone is tracking it

[3:19:05] Voice 26: because I'm struggling to track it too. So and I like I can't be the only one in the room. So

[3:19:13] Voice 26: my understanding of what's going on here is that the minister in the letter asked us to as a new

[3:19:20] Voice 26: council to basically weigh in on what our potential requests are around a provincial review

[3:19:29] Voice 26: or provincial sort of commenting or involvement relative to our governance review relative to

[3:19:36] Voice 26: our internal conversations that we're having and so I guess my question is I'm with you I think

[3:19:43] Voice 26: there's not enough time here to really have a good round discussion like from everybody in this space

[3:19:49] Voice 26: thoughtful reflection because we actually need page 392 and whatever other pages that is there

[3:19:55] Voice 26: we need it in the packet and everybody to kind of look it through and think it through I think

[3:20:00] Voice 26: like in our actual packet so it's with the minister's letter and we can see it all in

[3:20:04] Voice 26: one place to really make sense of it and I think we need to do that in a like round table kind of

[3:20:11] Voice 26: move um and so if we do that in march i guess my only concern is um if you meet with the if the ec

[3:20:20] Voice 26: or you meet with the minister between now and march um how how are you able to represent this

[3:20:27] Voice 26: council um

[3:20:29] Trustee Luckham: that's a great question thank you deb and i would suggest that if this council

[3:20:35] Trustee Luckham: uh defers this to our march meeting and we ended up having a meeting with the minister

[3:20:39] Trustee Luckham: we would indicate that action that is the action of the body we would convey that to the minister

[3:20:45] Trustee Luckham: according again odds around

[3:20:48] Trustee Luckham: the room ceo hudson yeah

[3:20:49] Voice 7: because it's a it would be good to actually

[3:20:53] Voice 7: have a meeting as soon as possible with the minister it doesn't have to go deep into this

[3:20:57] Voice 7: material until trust council's considered it but just to introduce the um yeah introduce yourself

[3:21:03] Voice 7: to the minister and get to know them on on some level that'll make a future conversation have

[3:21:08] Voice 7: more traction i would think okay um

[3:21:11] Trustee Luckham: so i'll if you want to lower your hand deborah make a motion

[3:21:15] Trustee Luckham: otherwise i'll go to uh trustee boland trustee bowen um

[3:21:20] Voice 23: i completely uh support what uh deb

[3:21:24] Voice 23: asked for and i think you've pretty much answered it i would expect that a meeting with the minister

[3:21:29] Voice 23: would be that you would brief the minister on what has gone on with respect to the request for

[3:21:35] Voice 23: the review and various other items I think that you CAO Russ summarized in one of your

[3:21:46] Voice 23: summaries of activities the various requests that have gone to the province and you asked that it

[3:21:51] Voice 23: would be integrated and condensed so yeah I look forward to a meeting in March where we tackle all

[3:21:58] Voice 23: of that and really make it coherent thank you thank

[3:22:02] Trustee Luckham: you trustee bernardo

[3:22:05] Voice 18: i'm uh joining the uh

[3:22:08] Voice 18: the chorus here uh on this front uh the in november we resolved to consider this issue

[3:22:15] Voice 18: at this meeting we're running out of time so we can still consider it in the way we're doing now

[3:22:20] Voice 18: the team's kind of straightforward to me the letter asks us basically to do some work before

[3:22:25] Voice 18: we go back to pestering the minister for relief of any kind it was written in a very nice way

[3:22:31] Voice 18: but they're telling us that we didn't bring them the information they needed um whatever or some

[3:22:36] Voice 18: interim meeting minister with the accomplishes it's not going to be anything to do with this

[3:22:42] Voice 18: it's going to be a get together here we are sort of thing substance of this letter it seems to me

[3:22:47] Voice 18: is something that trust council has to work with in conjunction with the executive committee

[3:22:52] Voice 18: So, rather than just punting this thing to March, don't we need to have a commitment probably from the executive committee to come up with a proposal of how we deal with the response that we would send to the minister and a plan, basically, for consideration by Trust Council? Thanks.

[3:23:20] Voice 8: In terms of process,

[3:23:23] Trustee Luckham: Theo Hottenberg.

[3:23:24] Voice 12: So

[3:23:25] Voice 7: now I offer this as just on the edge of, I don't want to wade too deep into this, but I think you need to sit as a body and discuss whether the substance and intention of this letter carries the current day in some way or should it be refined or expanded or something.

[3:23:49] Voice 7: thing this was an ask out of a previous trust council much like the strategic plan or anything

[3:23:55] Voice 7: else this council needs to go is this us and if so go do that go do those things so executive

[3:24:04] Voice 7: committee can set the stage for that and engender a conversation for march otherwise i don't know

[3:24:09] Voice 7: when you'd have that conversation other than like today but ec could certainly put some work into

[3:24:17] Voice 7: structuring that conversation right

[3:24:19] Trustee Luckham: so on that note it could be forwarded to ec and returned

[3:24:23] Trustee Luckham: to council for consideration so trustee getty uh

[3:24:29] Voice 25: we've got a new minister we've got a new

[3:24:31] Voice 25: governance committee and we need a larger discussion so is there time in march um we

[3:24:37] Voice 25: can make time yeah okay well then um that would be my suggestion that if this needs rewording

[3:24:46] Voice 25: then we set it up so that it's um we've got some time to talk about both the content of this who

[3:24:52] Voice 25: the new minister is all the things that we want and we can just brief them in terms of we've got

[3:24:56] Voice 25: we've taken great strides and come up with a governance committee and it hasn't met yet

[3:25:01] Trustee Luckham: right and so they will have met by march i'm presuming so we will make time i think that's

[3:25:08] Trustee Luckham: the right thing to do trustee peterson uh

[3:25:12] Voice 19: yeah thank you chair i have a motion i've sent to

[3:25:16] Voice 19: lori that i would like to just go ahead and move um i move that item 4.4 be deferred to a future

[3:25:23] Voice 19: trust council for consideration i did not specify march on purpose in case we find that the budget

[3:25:31] Voice 19: discussion subsumes all else uh so i move that we defer item 4.4 to

[3:25:41] Voice 12: to a future trust council

[3:25:45] Voice 19: for consideration

[3:25:45] Trustee Luckham: thank you for that trustee peterson before it's second are there any

[3:25:50] Trustee Luckham: concerns about putting it on a march agenda no it's nice to be conservative but i think council

[3:25:57] Trustee Luckham: is interested in advancing this i'm certainly interested in advancing it um i wouldn't be too

[3:26:01] Trustee Luckham: concerned about march if you want to make a little amendment there trustee peterson otherwise i'm

[3:26:06] Trustee Luckham: going to call for a second uh

[3:26:08] Voice 19: i actually i i actually think that if we're ready to put

[3:26:12] Voice 19: but it marks that this motion as it stands allows for that.

[3:26:16] Trustee Luckham: Okay, thank you.

[3:26:17] Trustee Luckham: So do I have a seconder?

[3:26:19] Trustee Luckham: Is that Trustee Deb Morrison?

[3:26:20] Trustee Luckham: I see your hand up.

[3:26:21] Trustee Luckham: Seconding?

[3:26:21] Trustee Luckham: No.

[3:26:22] Trustee Luckham: Is there a seconder?

[3:26:23] Trustee Luckham: I see Lisa Gavreau.

[3:26:25] Trustee Luckham: Thank you for seconding.

[3:26:27] Trustee Luckham: Now I've got a motion on the floor,

[3:26:29] Trustee Luckham: so now I need those who wish to speak to the motion on the floor.

[3:26:33] Trustee Luckham: And I see Susan Yates.

[3:26:34] Trustee Luckham: You can get your hand up.

[3:26:35] Voice 31: I wanted just to speak to the motion about meeting with the minister

[3:26:39] Voice 31: minister and just following up on quite a few comments over the last couple of days I know one

[3:26:45] Voice 31: of them came from trustee Aaron Campbell on North Pender about talking to the minister about so you

[3:26:51] Trustee Luckham: know I want to speak to the motion okay

[3:26:52] Voice 31: I just wasn't sure is that part of this motion I'm sorry

[3:26:59] Voice 27: yes yeah so the motion should be postponed to a few tweeting notes I know anyway you have some

[3:27:06] Trustee Luckham: advice for the chair i do could

[3:27:08] Voice 27: you uh change deferred to postpone uh make it correct okay so

[3:27:13] Trustee Luckham: uh is that i'm perfectly happy with that

[3:27:16] Trustee Luckham: thank you so now i see trustee dodds hand up on the motion

[3:27:21] Trustee Luckham: on the floor trustee

[3:27:29] Voice 12: dodds not

[3:27:33] Trustee Luckham: hearing anything um can only assume there's a technical difficulty

[3:27:37] Trustee Luckham: there are there any other uh is there any further discussion on the motion on the floor to postpone

[3:27:43] Trustee Luckham: item 4.4 uh deb morrison yeah

[3:27:47] Voice 26: i'll give janine a minute here um so the so postponing it seems fine

[3:27:52] Voice 26: to me i would prefer it to have a date so that it doesn't get so that we're solid about it coming

[3:27:59] Voice 26: back in march just because i just feel it's tighter um and then i also i'll put a second

[3:28:06] Voice 26: motion on the table i think that doesn't conflict with this just to have it go out to committee

[3:28:10] Voice 26: committee to have some of that pre-think involved before we get to March.

[3:28:14] Voice 26: Thank you.

[3:28:17] Voice 26: So sorry, I should have put a motion.

[3:28:19] Voice 26: So I move to amend the motion to include

[3:28:22] Voice 26: at the end for consideration at the March 2023 meeting trust council meeting.

[3:28:27] Voice 26: Waiting

[3:28:43] Trustee Luckham: for Lori to get that typed in there.

[3:28:47] Trustee Luckham: The item four point four be postponed

[3:28:49] Trustee Luckham: to a future trust council meeting to include the 2023 so to make any sense sorry march um i i would

[3:28:58] Trustee Luckham: simply remove the word future and put march trust council

[3:29:01] Voice 26: yeah postponed to the march trust 2023 yeah

[3:29:07] Voice 26: you're right sorry so instead of to a future meeting it would say to the march 2023 trust

[3:29:13] Voice 26: council meeting

[3:29:13] Trustee Luckham: okay so that's an amendment to the motion i'll wait for lori to get that straight

[3:29:35] Trustee Luckham: Okay, and some good yeah excellent quotation mark perfect. Okay, so that's an amendment that's been moved and I see seconding by Laura Patrick. So thank you.

[3:29:45] Voice 31: Sorry.

[3:29:46] Voice 26: Go ahead, Deb.

[3:29:49] Voice 26: I'm sorry it's not accurate yet. So replace the word, quote, a future, unquote, with the March meeting 2023.

[3:30:00] Voice 26: end quote which

[3:30:09] Voice 11: 2023 trust council is trust

[3:30:13] Voice 26: council is already in the original motion

[3:30:17] Voice 7: okay you're you know what's going on it's

[3:30:21] Trustee Luckham: good i know what's going on yeah yeah i'm perfectly

[3:30:25] Trustee Luckham: happy with this so i moved and seconded i'm going to call the vote on the amendment to the motion

[3:30:30] Trustee Luckham: all those in favor i

[3:30:40] Voice 12: see 22 all right thank

[3:30:42] Trustee Luckham: you please lower your hands council i'm actually just

[3:30:46] Trustee Luckham: can say that carries um 22 members in favor uh in the um interest of time i don't think i'm

[3:30:55] Trustee Luckham: disrespecting anybody by doing that um okay thank thank you council for that that's uh

[3:31:03] Trustee Luckham: made relatively short work of that um unless there's something further on this we need to

[3:31:08] Voice 19: vote on the main motion vote on the amended motion oh

[3:31:12] Trustee Luckham: you're right thank you man there we go

[3:31:16] Trustee Luckham: So, okay, so we have an amended motion on the floor.

[3:31:20] Trustee Luckham: We'll get that up on the screen.

[3:31:21] Trustee Luckham: And if there's no further discussion,

[3:31:24] Trustee Luckham: I'll call the vote on the amended motion.

[3:31:26] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, council.

[3:31:31] Trustee Luckham: It's never a clockwork.

[3:31:32] Voice 12: All

[3:31:39] Trustee Luckham: right, again, that's 20.

[3:31:40] Trustee Luckham: I think I saw 22 hands there briefly.

[3:31:42] Trustee Luckham: 22, thank you very much, council.

[3:31:45] Trustee Luckham: I'll call that carried.

[3:31:47] Trustee Luckham: I have no disrespect to intended.

[3:31:52] Trustee Luckham: I think that then covers that.

[3:31:54] Trustee Luckham: is there anything further so lower your hands please anything further on uh item 4.4 trustee

[3:32:04] Trustee Luckham: morrison yes

[3:32:06] Voice 26: so um i actually do think it will be helpful to have one of the committees have a look

[3:32:11] Voice 26: at this beforehand and give council some sort of a little bit of their pre-think but i'm unclear

[3:32:16] Voice 26: if it should be the governance committee or the tps i think it should be the tps but i'm not sure

[3:32:22] Voice 26: So if I could just have one or two people weigh in on that, what they think, and then I'm happy to make a motion to that effect.

[3:32:31] Voice 7: Governance.

[3:32:33] Voice 12: Thank you, Jim.

[3:32:34] Voice 12: Any other suggestions?

[3:32:37] Voice 12: Governance.

[3:32:37] Voice 12: Can it be both?

[3:32:41] Voice 12: It can be as much as you want.

[3:32:43] Voice 8: It all takes scheduling.

[3:32:47] Voice 12: So,

[3:32:48] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Morrison, you've got some feedback today.

[3:32:50] Trustee Luckham: What would you like to do?

[3:32:51] Trustee Luckham: I

[3:32:52] Voice 26: move that the, that trust counts are sorry, I can't quite think of the wording of this one. Sorry, but it the intent is that I moved that the trust council refer the request for decision and letter. So request for decision.

[3:33:10] Voice 26: Item 4.4.

[3:33:12] Voice 26: Thank you. I refer item 4.4 to the governance committee for discussion prior to the March 2023

[3:33:22] Voice 26: trust council meeting.

[3:33:24] Trustee Luckham: Thank you. So we'll let Lori get

[3:33:27] Voice 12: that up on the screen. All right. That's

[3:33:46] Voice 12: your intention.

[3:33:47] Voice 26: Yeah. Thank you very much, Lori.

[3:33:50] Trustee Luckham: Seconder for this motion, David Graham. Thank you,

[3:33:54] Trustee Luckham: David um is there any further discussion on this motion right no discussion no hands up so please

[3:34:02] Trustee Luckham: raise your hand to vote that

[3:34:15] Voice 12: looks like 21 to me so please lower your hand

[3:34:21] Voice 8: thank you any opposed

[3:34:23] Voice 12: none

[3:34:26] Trustee Luckham: opposed so that is unanimous thank you very much

[3:34:28] Trustee Luckham: so does that conclude the business on item 4.4 not seeing any indications of anything further

[3:34:36] Trustee Luckham: I'm going to go to item 5.2, which is a NAPTEP covenant, and I believe Trustee Yates is prepared to advance that motion.

[3:34:45] Voice 12: Page 53.

[3:34:47] Voice 12: So

[3:34:56] Voice 31: I move that the Islands Trust Council extend the timeline for issuing the Natural Area Exemption Certificate for Natural Area Protection Tax Exemption Program, that's NAPTEP,

[3:35:09] Voice 31: application SSNAP 2020.3 Salt Spring Island until December 2024.

[3:35:22] Trustee Luckham: So that's moved. Do I have a seconder? Trustee Patrick, I think I saw there.

[3:35:28] Trustee Luckham: Any viewers to speak to it?

[3:35:30] Voice 31: The explanation is very clear in the package. There are no

[3:35:34] Voice 31: budget implications and the timeline extension is required in order to get this completed.

[3:35:41] Trustee Luckham: Thank you very much. Any discussion?

[3:35:44] Voice 12: No discussion. So I'm going to call the vote. All those in favor?

[3:35:57] Trustee Luckham: 21.

[3:35:58] Trustee Luckham: Okay. So please lower your hands, Council. I am going to call that as carried.

[3:36:04] Trustee Luckham: And I don't want to gloss over this too quickly because this is so significant and so important, these NAPTEP covenants,

[3:36:11] Trustee Luckham: in property owners voluntarily protecting their properties in unique ways. So I want to acknowledge that. So thank you.

[3:36:22] Trustee Luckham: So item 5.3 on page 55, DFO appointments, I've just been advised that these appointments are not necessary until April of next year.

[3:36:31] Trustee Luckham: And so we could defer this, and that might perhaps provide the opportunity for trustees to step up and advise us of their interest and maybe not have to go through that process at this time.

[3:36:45] Trustee Luckham: but that said if somebody's already done their homework and has two names that they want to

[3:36:51] Trustee Luckham: drop on that there's not any debate um certainly we can do it but we do have the opportunity to

[3:36:56] Trustee Luckham: defer it and i see three four hands up there now so sue ellen fast is the first one thank you i

[3:37:02] Voice 5: note that uh trustee scott isn't here one of the bain sound um trustee leadership i would say

[3:37:10] Voice 5: say in marine issues anyway and we haven't had a chance to discuss it I move to postpone item 5.3

[3:37:17] Voice 5: to the March 2023 Trust Council meeting thank

[3:37:22] Trustee Luckham: you very much seconded by Trustee Allen so thank you

[3:37:26] Trustee Luckham: very much Trustee Allen um is there any further discussion on the motion that is being typed up

[3:37:31] Trustee Luckham: on the screen at this moment you wish to speak to it well

[3:37:37] Voice 29: that's exactly what uh I agree with

[3:37:39] Voice 29: with Sue Ellen Fass that Trustee Scott isn't here

[3:37:41] Voice 29: and he definitely might wanna be interested

[3:37:46] Voice 29: in this position.

[3:37:46] Voice 29: So yes, I'm in total agreement of this.

[3:37:48] Trustee Luckham: Okay, thank you.

[3:37:50] Trustee Luckham: Any further discussion on the motion on the screen?

[3:37:53] Trustee Luckham: Then I'll call the vote.

[3:37:55] Voice 12: All those in favor?

[3:37:56] Voice 12: It looks like 22.

[3:38:07] Voice 12: So

[3:38:07] Trustee Luckham: please lower your hands.

[3:38:09] Trustee Luckham: I'll call that as carried.

[3:38:10] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, council.

[3:38:12] Trustee Luckham: Now this one might be a little bit more conversation

[3:38:15] Trustee Luckham: at 6.4.11 on page 203 of your package

[3:38:20] Trustee Luckham: is the special tax levy for Salt Spring Island.

[3:38:26] Trustee Luckham: And that's on page, I've got to get my own page up here now, 203.

[3:38:34] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[3:38:35] Trustee Luckham: And so this is from Financial Planning Committee

[3:38:39] Trustee Luckham: in actually acting, Tim Peterson is acting chair, I believe, there.

[3:38:47] Trustee Luckham: but otherwise is there some staff advice on advancing this and then we'll ask if there's

[3:38:51] Trustee Luckham: any questions this is a new topic i realize for many and the complexities of it are significant

[3:38:59] Trustee Luckham: it has been a practice for a number of years and salt spring island of course

[3:39:03] Trustee Luckham: is endorsing this tax requisition that only affects salt spring island and its associated

[3:39:10] Trustee Luckham: islands i'd just like to know um so i see a couple speakers trustee

[3:39:15] Voice 12: jamie harris i'm not hearing you

[3:39:24] Trustee Luckham: Jamie?

[3:39:25] Voice 8: Oh, you're gone now. Okay,

[3:39:27] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Boland. I

[3:39:39] Voice 23: would like to just raise the issue that this

[3:39:42] Voice 23: is a process which is available to all islands in order to fund projects that might not be funded

[3:39:50] Voice 23: from the general budget. I did ask Julia if she could explain it to me, what the timeline would

[3:39:57] Voice 23: be and how it would work. And I thought it would be a very good idea if she could take this

[3:40:02] Voice 23: opportunity to explain it to everybody so that there are no surprises in the future it's another

[3:40:08] Voice 23: option around you know adjusting the budget or not but i think it's it's really important that

[3:40:14] Voice 23: everybody understands it properly so i would ask julia to um speak to this thank you so thank you

[3:40:22] Trustee Luckham: uh trustee roland i'm i'm reluctant to have a conversation and discussion about

[3:40:31] Trustee Luckham: special tax requisition broadly across the trustee area as we are at this moment in time talking

[3:40:37] Trustee Luckham: about a very specific one certainly would want to see that conversation in the future and with that

[3:40:42] Trustee Luckham: said i'm going to look to director mobs about how she might like to capture that conversation

[3:40:49] Trustee Luckham: not necessarily today but at some point in the future uh

[3:40:53] Voice 24: thanks mr chair so the rfd that's in

[3:40:56] Voice 24: in the agenda package speaks to two separate items.

[3:41:00] Voice 24: So the first is a very specific assessment

[3:41:02] Voice 24: of the special requisition request

[3:41:04] Voice 24: that has come from the Salt Spring Island

[3:41:05] Voice 24: Local Trust Committee.

[3:41:06] Voice 24: Council needs to approve that for funding

[3:41:09] Voice 24: a special requisition as is recommended

[3:41:13] Voice 24: by the motion in the report.

[3:41:16] Voice 24: There is a second section of this report, section B,

[3:41:19] Voice 24: which talks about funding local trust committee projects

[3:41:23] Voice 24: with special requisitions in general.

[3:41:25] Voice 24: and the December trust council meeting is when council needs to have those conversations

[3:41:30] Voice 24: because council policy dictates that local communities or local trust committees will

[3:41:35] Voice 24: engage with their communities on any

[3:41:37] Voice 24: project that might be funded from special requisition

[3:41:40] Voice 24: so if trust council receives a special or receives a project request from a local trust committee

[3:41:46] Voice 24: that they don't believe can be funded in the general budget they would need to give direction

[3:41:52] Voice 24: to the local trust committee to engage in consultation

[3:41:55] Voice 24: to then potentially have the project funded

[3:41:58] Voice 24: out of special requisition monies.

[3:42:00] Voice 24: So that decision will be made in March.

[3:42:03] Voice 24: If trust council at this stage

[3:42:05] Voice 24: directs the local trust committee to engage

[3:42:07] Voice 24: in that community engagement,

[3:42:09] Voice 24: they could still choose to fund a local trust committee project

[3:42:12] Voice 24: out of the general budget in March.

[3:42:14] Voice 24: Just because they decide now that they want the LTC

[3:42:17] Voice 24: to engage doesn't mean that it's a default,

[3:42:20] Voice 24: that the project will be funded under special requisition.

[3:42:24] Voice 24: So that's all in section B of the report

[3:42:26] Voice 24: for trustees to reference.

[3:42:29] Trustee Luckham: And thank you.

[3:42:30] Trustee Luckham: So Trustee Peterson, I want to acknowledge also

[3:42:32] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Patrick and of course, Trustee Harris,

[3:42:35] Trustee Luckham: both Salt Spring trustees who might wish to speak

[3:42:38] Trustee Luckham: to their community interest in this.

[3:42:39] Trustee Luckham: And then Mary Boland, do you want to lower your hand

[3:42:43] Trustee Luckham: or you have an additional question?

[3:42:45] Trustee Luckham: So I'll go to Tim Peterson.

[3:42:47] Voice 19: Thank you, Chair.

[3:42:48] Voice 19: i'd like to defer to the salt spring uh island local trustees first thank you uh laura patrick

[3:42:56] Trustee Patrick: first i have a question uh that it says put forward for public consultation is this the

[3:43:00] Trustee Patrick: consultation that's required by the salt stream local trust committee on this or is this in regard

[3:43:05] Trustee Patrick: to the package of the budget package that this is referencing the

[3:43:11] Voice 21: one required under the salt

[3:43:12] Voice 21: Okay.

[3:43:13] Trustee Patrick: Thank you. I wanted to clarify that. For the benefit of my fellow trustee, again, remind us that Salt Spring has not met yet as a local trust committee this term.

[3:43:25] Trustee Patrick: This was a special tax requisition that was started under the previous two terms ago, trustees prior to my first term in office.

[3:43:34] Trustee Patrick: worked hard to get a we did two things two things one was a review of governance on swipa and there

[3:43:41] Trustee Patrick: was a report from march of last year or this year sorry and the second is to do a strategic plan

[3:43:49] Trustee Patrick: on what the cooperation of the four major organizations which includes islands trust

[3:43:57] Trustee Patrick: on the cooperation of this the the strategic plan has not been finished yet it's getting

[3:44:02] Trustee Patrick: close, apparently. We'll see it soon. But the governance review did point out one of the first

[3:44:07] Trustee Patrick: actions, which has the draft strategic plan. Its first action is to implement and figure out the

[3:44:16] Trustee Patrick: governance for this. In most regional districts, this service is a service under a regional

[3:44:22] Trustee Patrick: district. That's just not the case on Salt Spring. And that's got to be sorted out. Where does this

[3:44:27] Trustee Patrick: belong um so for now it's uh it's belonging under salt islands trust but in the next year hopefully

[3:44:34] Trustee Patrick: that issue will be resolved and the the determination of the future of this service

[3:44:38] Trustee Patrick: would be figured out thank you

[3:44:42] Voice 14: trustee patrick uh trustee harris i just want to make it clear

[3:44:47] Voice 14: that this was from previous trust council um the request and um i wasn't involved in this thanks

[3:44:52] Voice 14: excellent thank you jamie uh tim peterson

[3:44:56] Trustee Luckham: your hand is still up yeah

[3:44:59] Voice 19: thank you chair um i am uh

[3:45:02] Voice 19: happy to make the motion recommended and i will just note for clarity that the recommendation

[3:45:09] Voice 19: says approve in concept um and i would uh suggest that that does not mean that the local trust

[3:45:19] Voice 19: trust committee for Salt Spring Island could not have some further input into this question so

[3:45:26] Voice 19: I move that trust Council approve in concept the Salt Spring Island local trust committee's request

[3:45:32] Voice 19: for a 2023-24 special tax requisition to fund work associated with the delegated powers under

[3:45:39] Voice 19: bylaw number 154 in the amount of 75 000 and that the project be put forward to public consultation

[3:45:46] Voice 19: Thank

[3:45:47] Trustee Luckham: you. I think that's $75,500, just for clarity. But that's moved, and I see seconded by Laura Patrick. Thank you, Laura. Is there any further discussion? Deb Morrison, discussion?

[3:46:02] Trustee Luckham: discussion um

[3:46:04] Voice 26: I guess I I need to understand from trustee Harris and maybe just on and maybe this is

[3:46:10] Voice 26: a David Marler question I need to understand um if voting yes for this given what has already been

[3:46:17] Voice 26: voted on at the Salt Spring Island LTC means it is going forward or if this is something that will

[3:46:27] Voice 26: then come back to the current salt spring island ltc um for final approval before it's authorized

[3:46:37] Voice 12: yeah i i don't know about that um good question um i think that was from trustee harris so trustee

[3:46:48] Trustee Luckham: patrick um

[3:46:50] Trustee Patrick: i'll i'll do my best to answer process uh this is just about sending it out to

[3:46:55] Trustee Patrick: consultation it will come the final decision is made in the march package overall with the budget

[3:47:01] Trustee Patrick: if i understand and recall correctly so we'll all see this again really

[3:47:06] Voice 27: okay david marlin yeah we

[3:47:09] Voice 27: will go back to the salt spring ltc before sending out for consultation okay so

[3:47:17] Trustee Luckham: thank you is there

[3:47:17] Trustee Luckham: any further discussion thank

[3:47:20] Voice 12: you council i'm going to call the vote all those in favor oh

[3:47:36] Trustee Luckham: david i'm seeing 18 in favor correct correct yeah please lower your hands and any opposed

[3:47:49] Trustee Luckham: So those opposed, five, one, two, three, four, five opposed.

[3:47:56] Trustee Luckham: Okay, thank you very much.

[3:47:58] Trustee Luckham: That passes and carries,

[3:48:01] Trustee Luckham: and that will come back to us in March.

[3:48:05] Voice 14: So-

[3:48:05] Voice 14: I have to interject here, sorry, point of order.

[3:48:08] Voice 14: I swear I saw some hands for and against on that.

[3:48:12] Voice 14: Is that something that we're allowed to do?

[3:48:13] Voice 14: Sorry for the interruption.

[3:48:15] Trustee Luckham: Oh, well, that's a good catch.

[3:48:20] Trustee Luckham: that's unusual no you have to vote one way or the other um and perhaps that was because i

[3:48:28] Trustee Luckham: proceeded slowly or too quickly um

[3:48:33] Voice 12: so um call for the i

[3:48:40] Trustee Luckham: can call those opposed to the motion

[3:48:44] Trustee Luckham: if you could raise your hands one more time and

[3:48:48] Voice 12: if you voted in favor don't vote in opposition

[3:48:51] Voice 12: Okay. Well, that's four

[3:48:58] Trustee Luckham: opposed. So let's take, it still carries, doesn't change the council's direction. So thank you, Jamie, for that close eye. Really great.

[3:49:10] Trustee Luckham: great um so next item here is disposition of delegations and of course there were four

[3:49:18] Trustee Luckham: delegations at pages 212 to 231 and the late uh delegation that came from michael sketch

[3:49:25] Trustee Luckham: would be included in that typically um executive committee or myself i thank uh those delegations

[3:49:34] Trustee Luckham: for making representation,

[3:49:36] Trustee Luckham: making the presentation to council.

[3:49:38] Trustee Luckham: And so if there's specific direction

[3:49:41] Trustee Luckham: that council would like to take

[3:49:42] Trustee Luckham: with respect to any of the delegations,

[3:49:44] Trustee Luckham: this is your opportunity to provide that,

[3:49:47] Trustee Luckham: perhaps referring to one of the other bodies

[3:49:50] Trustee Luckham: or for further information.

[3:49:54] Trustee Luckham: So council, with regards to disposition of delegations,

[3:49:58] Trustee Luckham: can you note which one you would like to take action on

[3:50:01] Trustee Luckham: and what that action might be?

[3:50:02] Trustee Luckham: And I'm going to go to Trustee Boland, Trustee Fass, Trustee Campbell.

[3:50:09] Voice 23: Hello, thanks.

[3:50:10] Voice 23: I would like to reference the delegation from David Dunnison.

[3:50:15] Voice 23: And I move that staff work with the delegate, David Dunnison,

[3:50:20] Voice 23: on his assertion with respect to carbon storage numbers

[3:50:24] Voice 23: and respond to Trust Council on findings and next steps,

[3:50:29] Voice 23: such as further peer review and revision to Ireland's Trust communications on carbon storage facts.

[3:50:37] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, Trustee Boland. Did you email that to Laurie?

[3:50:42] Voice 23: Well, no, I didn't because I'm a bit confused about the early alert versus XYZ.

[3:50:48] Voice 23: So I can send it right now this minute.

[3:50:50] Trustee Luckham: Please send it right now. That would be excellent.

[3:50:53] Trustee Luckham: Excellent. And while that's, I'm going to just allow that to, unless she's got it already, but it seems unlikely.

[3:51:02] Voice 23: I'm just sending it immediately. There. Done.

[3:51:07] Trustee Luckham: All right. I'm going to just move to the next speaker, and then we'll pick you back up again afterwards, just to be efficient with our timing. Sue Ellen Fast, do you have something for delegations?

[3:51:19] Trustee Luckham: Yes,

[3:51:21] Voice 5: thank you. Also for the same delegation, this is a motion that trustee and former chair of the Conservancy, Kate Louise Stamford, was going to propose, and I have it here. It just refers to staff reviewing the 2014 carbon and biodiversity mapping and assessment to ensure appropriate representation of the carbon storage and biodiversity values in the Islands Trust area.

[3:51:46] Voice 5: so I will propose that depending on what happens with this motion that has been proposed first

[3:51:53] Voice 5: thank you okay so we've now got that

[3:51:55] Trustee Luckham: on the screen thank you very much

[3:51:57] Trustee Luckham: trustee Boland for advancing this so council that's on the screen do I have a seconder

[3:52:01] Trustee Luckham: and I see a couple of hands up so give me a visual indication of whether or not you're

[3:52:07] Trustee Luckham: seconding David Graham seconding the motion thank you so I'm going to ask if this discussion on the

[3:52:14] Trustee Luckham: motion and i see two hands up on the motion that's on the floor do you wish to speak trustee campbell

[3:52:20] Trustee Luckham: and trustee harris if not lower your hands to save any confusion thank you is there any discussion on

[3:52:28] Trustee Luckham: the motion i'm going to call the vote oh ceo hudson pillar i

[3:52:33] Voice 7: just noticed that the motion requires

[3:52:36] Voice 7: working with the delegate specifically but is there not an opportunity to work with anyone who

[3:52:43] Voice 7: could provide i mean we would reference the presentation but if we're peer reviewing it

[3:52:54] Voice 7: i'm expecting there would be can it include reference beyond that con that presentation

[3:53:02] Voice 23: well it does go on to say and report on finding next steps such as further peer review

[3:53:10] Voice 23: i wonder if that answers your concern i

[3:53:16] Voice 7: just want yeah i just want to make sure that

[3:53:18] Voice 7: The intention is to get all the relevant facts associated with that in front of Trust Council

[3:53:25] Voice 7: and to clear up the inconsistencies, and if that satisfies Trust Council's interest.

[3:53:32] Voice 7: Does that?

[3:53:33] Trustee Luckham: So is that the intention, Trustee Boland?

[3:53:35] Trustee Luckham: That is the question I asked.

[3:53:38] Trustee Luckham: Is that the intention, Trustee Boland?

[3:53:40] Voice 23: I'd just ask, Russ, what would you suggest as an amendment, Russ?

[3:53:44] Voice 23: um

[3:53:45] Voice 7: that staff reference and refer the delegate and recommend next steps and respond to trust

[3:53:58] Voice 7: council on next steps as the way you use you've described it thank you for assisting us with that

[3:54:07] Voice 7: and i thank you for the opportunity to to assist um

[3:54:14] Voice 23: i don't really see the difference i would like

[3:54:19] Voice 23: to feel that it could be a collaborative cooperative effort together and reference

[3:54:26] Voice 23: and refer seems that it's kind of like distance and that you know it won't be truly a collaborative

[3:54:34] Voice 23: effort to address the issue but i'm open to other comments on that so i'll leave it at that well

[3:54:46] Voice 7: it's not for me to say i i offered a suggestion if it's right if it's

[3:54:50] Trustee Luckham: not so i see a bunch of hands

[3:54:52] Voice 7: up

[3:54:52] Trustee Luckham: and i'm not sure totally where we're at but we've got a moved and seconded motion on the floor

[3:54:57] Trustee Luckham: we don't have uh an amendment at this time and so speakers on the motion and over to ellen fast

[3:55:06] Voice 5: thank you chair i'll um the way it's written currently i will be voting against this motion

[3:55:11] Voice 5: because I think we've been hearing about limited staff resources and time and what we've got here

[3:55:18] Voice 5: is a motion for staff to work with the delegate as opposed to and and full credit to the delegate

[3:55:24] Voice 5: for all the work he's put into this but I think I would prefer that staff that seems onerous to me

[3:55:33] Voice 5: I know I would prefer that staff work with committees or with trust council and report to committees and trust council or something like that.

[3:55:50] Voice 5: I can't support it. Thank you.

[3:55:51] Voice 5: So

[3:55:51] Trustee Luckham: thank you, Trustee Fast. Without an amendment, I'm going to move to the next speaker.

[3:55:56] Trustee Luckham: And the list is jumping around here now, and I don't know what to do about that, except that Joe Bernardo is the first one on the top of my list.

[3:56:04] Trustee Luckham: Thank

[3:56:05] Voice 18: you. Mr. Dennison identified a potential problem. And if he's correct, and he sounds well informed, and it sounds like he's got the right expertise, and if he's correct, it's a real problem in that the Islands Trust ought not to be promulgating false information.

[3:56:31] Voice 18: information. So this is clearly something we've got to address. We can't just say, well, the staff

[3:56:38] Voice 18: is already busy, so we'll just keep sending out things that might be false. I don't know how

[3:56:44] Voice 18: urgent it is, but it has some degree of urgency that needs to be addressed. I don't think it

[3:56:49] Voice 18: necessarily requires a huge amount of work. I don't read or don't understand this resolution

[3:56:55] Voice 18: resolution as prescribing that the staff move heaven and earth to create reports public consultation

[3:57:01] Voice 18: and God knows what else perhaps the issue is and I do think we need to engage with the person who

[3:57:10] Voice 18: identified the problem uh he seems to know what he's talking about it doesn't mean we're tied to

[3:57:17] Voice 18: what he says so perhaps you know maybe the offending word is work uh my concern is simply

[3:57:23] Voice 18: that the staff engage with the delegate and then that doesn't if we make that requirement that

[3:57:32] Voice 18: doesn't limit the staff from doing other things that it thinks it's advisable it's simply saying

[3:57:38] Voice 18: please talk to this guy and go do other things whatever you need to to come back to us to give

[3:57:43] Voice 18: us an intelligible answer so why

[3:57:45] Voice 12: don't we just

[3:57:46] Voice 18: change the word to engage if people are offended

[3:57:50] Voice 18: by the word work if you

[3:57:51] Trustee Luckham: make a motion to amend

[3:57:52] Voice 18: that would be happy to

[3:57:54] Voice 18: that i make a motion to

[3:57:57] Voice 18: amend the uh motion before the floor uh removing the word work and replace replace it with the word

[3:58:05] Voice 18: engage uh

[3:58:07] Voice 12: remove

[3:58:09] Voice 18: the word work with the phrase work with and replace it with the word engage

[3:58:15] Voice 18: all right

[3:58:18] Trustee Luckham: thank you so council are you clear on the amendment i'll

[3:58:22] Voice 12: second the amendment

[3:58:23] Trustee Luckham: janine jobs is seconded the amendment thank you very much janine uh do you wish to speak to it

[3:58:29] Trustee Luckham: further trustee bernardo so there's a bunch of hands

[3:58:33] Trustee Luckham: sorry

[3:58:34] Voice 18: it's

[3:58:36] Trustee Luckham: a bunch of hands up and so if

[3:58:38] Trustee Luckham: you lower your hands and and if you wish to speak to the amendment please keep your hand up i'm not

[3:58:46] Trustee Luckham: seeing anybody or she just speak on the amendment so i'm going to call them yeah

[3:58:51] Voice 14: point of order i

[3:58:51] Voice 14: do wish to um speak to it i'm i'm sorry um is that you just muted yourself trustee harris

[3:59:02] Voice 14: sorry sorry sorry to be nitpicky here but did he mean to say remove the word work and replace with

[3:59:09] Voice 14: engage or or work with omitted and engage added

[3:59:16] Voice 8: that's what it says there exactly

[3:59:18] Voice 14: and i just

[3:59:19] Voice 14: wanted to clarify that with joe to see if that was um indeed what he meant to say uh

[3:59:24] Voice 18: yep that's what

[3:59:24] Voice 18: i meant to say so that it just says that the staff uh uh will engage with mr johnson that's just so

[3:59:33] Voice 18: that you know they can talk to him get information okay

[3:59:36] Voice 14: so so as it states they're saying just engage

[3:59:41] Voice 14: the delegate not engage with is what the way they're wording it right now yeah and i think

[3:59:47] Voice 14: that works engage the delegate not engage with the delegate you know what i think either would work

[3:59:53] Voice 14: uh i'm not fussy i mean i think i

[3:59:56] Voice 14: will do the job thank you thanks

[4:00:00] Trustee Luckham: semantics a little bit here it's not got too lost so therefore is there any further discussion on

[4:00:05] Trustee Luckham: the amendment i'll call the vote on the

[4:00:07] Voice 12: amendment all those in favor looks like 20

[4:00:18] Trustee Luckham: 21 in favor

[4:00:21] Trustee Luckham: so please lower your hands council is that correct david yeah 21. and any opposed please raise your

[4:00:28] Trustee Luckham: hand now not opposed that carries unanimously so i'm going to come back to the original motion now

[4:00:36] Trustee Luckham: amended motion and ask if the speakers and i recognize toby elliott thank

[4:00:43] Voice 13: you chair um

[4:00:45] Voice 13: my concern with engaging with the speaker or the proponent or the delegate whatever you want to

[4:00:51] Voice 13: call them is that we don't know if he is an authority in the field and it's actually kind

[4:00:56] Voice 13: of limiting the options what i would prefer is that staff do research on the subject matter

[4:01:03] Voice 13: and if it turns out that the delegate is the expert on the subject matter then he's the one

[4:01:10] Voice 13: that gives the information but he gave us a lot of information that starts the inquiry the inquiry

[4:01:16] Voice 13: should be into the subject matter not necessarily dealing with the delegate so i would not be in

[4:01:22] Voice 13: support of this motion thank

[4:01:25] Trustee Luckham: you trustee elliot trustee yates i

[4:01:28] Voice 31: will not be in support of this

[4:01:30] Voice 31: motion but i would be in support of the motion that kate louise stamford had given to sue ellen

[4:01:36] Voice 31: fast we're

[4:01:37] Trustee Luckham: not privy to that at this moment okay so thank you for that though so on this motion

[4:01:42] Trustee Luckham: um you're not you're speaking not in favor christine evans thank

[4:01:48] Voice 22: you i was just going to

[4:01:49] Voice 22: respond to um trustee elliott um i believe that delegate david doninson had established his

[4:01:58] Voice 22: credentials in the field. And based on his knowledge and experience with other expertise

[4:02:09] Voice 22: within that field, he has some valuable input to provide to staff should it be required. Thank you.

[4:02:18] Voice 26: Thank

[4:02:19] Trustee Luckham: you, Trustee Evans. Trustee Morrison?

[4:02:23] Voice 26: I don't think it's relevant what the expertise

[4:02:26] Voice 26: of the community member is in this moment the community member came to us with something that

[4:02:31] Voice 26: they see as potentially a piece of information that's propagating that's misleading in some way

[4:02:37] Voice 26: and I think that it's important for us to understand and engage with that particular

[4:02:42] Voice 26: person and why they think it's not why they think it's misinformation and then for the staff which

[4:02:47] Voice 26: I think this motion covers to appropriately find the right information and again I agree with

[4:02:53] Voice 26: trustee bernardo i don't think this is a ton of different work i think it's just interrogating

[4:02:58] Voice 26: that specific issue about that base report that was named and then understanding if we need to

[4:03:04] Voice 26: take another step um from there so i will be in support of this motion thank you thank you tim

[4:03:08] Trustee Luckham: peterson and then surellen fast yeah

[4:03:12] Voice 19: thank you uh the way i read this motion is that the staff will

[4:03:16] Voice 19: engage the delegate and then respond to trust council on findings and next steps and i'm

[4:03:22] Voice 19: satisfied that that will give us further decision points thank

[4:03:26] Trustee Luckham: you trustee peterson

[4:03:28] Trustee Luckham: thank you

[4:03:30] Voice 5: a question for staff um would uh next steps and um findings include um islands trusts

[4:03:40] Voice 5: 2014 carbon and biodiversity mapping and assessment for the islands trust area report

[4:03:47] Voice 5: considering that the, well, that's my question.

[4:03:52] Voice 21: Could I have it restated?

[4:03:53] Voice 21: I didn't quite catch the question.

[4:03:56] Voice 5: Would, if this motion is passed,

[4:04:00] Voice 5: would staff also refer to the 2014 carbon

[4:04:05] Voice 5: and biodiversity mapping and assessment

[4:04:07] Voice 5: for the Allen's Trust area report

[4:04:09] Voice 5: that was created around carbon storage

[4:04:14] Voice 5: and biodiversity values are included in that?

[4:04:16] Voice 5: I

[4:04:18] Voice 21: would expect so. I know Manager Emmings is on the line. What I would seek to say is certainly

[4:04:24] Voice 21: we will certainly look at this. We have noted there is a mistake. There's a sentence that's

[4:04:29] Voice 21: incorrect in the CDF toolkit. I've already requested that that be amended and reposted

[4:04:35] Voice 21: to the website. And certainly I'm hoping to confirm we expect to reach out to the report's

[4:04:39] Voice 21: author as well to seek his feedback on the critique of the work. And I hope that's purposeful

[4:04:46] Voice 21: within the scope of this this motion thank

[4:04:50] Trustee Luckham: you thank you very much um now back to marie boland

[4:04:56] Trustee Luckham: on your mo on your motion well council's motions here now on the table uh

[4:05:01] Voice 23: just quickly in response

[4:05:02] Voice 23: to uh suelen i believe the 2014 are you the schuster report is that what you're referring to

[4:05:12] Voice 23: or is a further report based on that information thank you i'm referring to

[4:05:22] Voice 5: um there were two reports that i have in mind one was um a report that was um

[4:05:33] Voice 5: commissioned commissioned by the islands trust um for the islands trust area and uh

[4:05:39] Voice 5: about uh carbon climate projections and carbon storage and the other one i'm thinking of is a

[4:05:45] Voice 5: A similar one done for Metro Vancouver.

[4:05:49] Trustee Luckham: I don't think that this is furthering the motion that's on the table.

[4:05:53] Trustee Luckham: Staff have provided an answer about the answers and the affirmative.

[4:05:58] Trustee Luckham: I would really like to not get lost in the weeds on this.

[4:06:02] Trustee Luckham: And I actually see that the Island Stress Conservancy manager has maybe got some advice to help us here.

[4:06:10] Trustee Luckham: But if we're satisfied with the motion, staff will sort it out.

[4:06:14] Trustee Luckham: and certainly if it comes back inadequately um we can reconsider that but that wouldn't be ideal

[4:06:20] Trustee Luckham: i recognize that so if that's all right council i want to recognize us trust conservancy manager

[4:06:25] Trustee Luckham: kate emmings good

[4:06:28] Manager Emmings: afternoon council thank you very much chair luckum um i just wanted to give

[4:06:33] Manager Emmings: council an update on some of the follow-up that has happened with respect to the delegation that

[4:06:38] Manager Emmings: was received on tuesday night um we have followed up with the report author and my understanding

[4:06:45] Manager Emmings: from him is that he does stand by the information that he put into that

[4:06:49] Manager Emmings: report. He mentioned

[4:06:53] Manager Emmings: that it is current to the science of the day that it was written. Certainly

[4:06:57] Manager Emmings: if it was rewritten at this time, it may be that there are updates to

[4:07:01] Manager Emmings: that. But for the purposes of that report, he does stand by it

[4:07:05] Manager Emmings: and he is working in this field right

[4:07:09] Manager Emmings: now in an academic capacity, but also

[4:07:13] Manager Emmings: for the nature conservancy of canada um i suppose the only other thing that i would add is that um

[4:07:20] Manager Emmings: staff have reviewed the delegation and i think we have a pretty good understanding of the concerns

[4:07:27] Manager Emmings: um and i think we'd be or i'd be prepared to um just convey uh further information to the um

[4:07:36] Manager Emmings: um to the council uh regarding any uh updates from the author of the report if that's desired

[4:07:44] Trustee Luckham: okay thank you um is there any further discussion on the motion on the floor

[4:07:49] Trustee Luckham: i'm going to call for the vote then not seeing any hands going up all those in favor

[4:07:55] Trustee Luckham: seeing

[4:08:04] Voice 8: 20 david yeah correct okay

[4:08:06] Trustee Luckham: so please lower your hands council

[4:08:11] Trustee Luckham: and those opposed to the motion please raise your hand all right thank you council that passes

[4:08:20] Trustee Luckham: unanimously and so uh thank you so is there any other action with respect to uh delegations

[4:08:27] Trustee Luckham: and i'll recognize deb morrison i

[4:08:31] Voice 26: uh sent this over to laurie and russ i i will read it out but

[4:08:35] Voice 26: but I also, I'm hoping this sounds right.

[4:08:41] Voice 26: So I move that Trust Council request the CAO

[4:08:45] Voice 26: to prepare a report for the March 2023 Trust Council meeting

[4:08:48] Voice 26: regarding the claims of Mielle Chandler

[4:08:50] Voice 26: with respect to bylaw enforcement.

[4:08:55] Trustee Luckham: David Marler, would you speak to that?

[4:08:58] Voice 27: Yeah, I don't think this is appropriate for Trust Council

[4:09:01] Voice 27: for two reasons.

[4:09:03] Voice 27: One, that's the specific bylaw enforcement complaint.

[4:09:07] Voice 27: And that's with the Salt Spring Island Local Trust Committee.

[4:09:09] Voice 27: So that would be the appropriate venue is the Salt Spring Local Trust Committee.

[4:09:13] Voice 27: And the second is it shouldn't be in an open meeting if it's talking about a specific

[4:09:17] Voice 27: file.

[4:09:19] Trustee Luckham: OK, so do you understand that?

[4:09:21] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, I understand that.

[4:09:23] Voice 26: I it doesn't say that it wouldn't be would be in the open meeting.

[4:09:28] Voice 26: It could be in a closed and I would assume as a bylaw enforcement, it would come to us

[4:09:31] Voice 26: in a closed meeting.

[4:09:32] Voice 26: um the claims that were made in the they were made in trust council and they were made more

[4:09:37] Voice 26: about by law enforcement generally so i do actually think that it needs to come back to

[4:09:42] Voice 26: trust council um so and it might not be about that it's her claims aren't necessarily only

[4:09:49] Voice 26: with respect to that space but that it's a more pervasive issue and so that's my concern that i

[4:09:55] Voice 26: would love the CAO to report about?

[4:09:59] Voice 27: So just on that for me yeah I think the general

[4:10:04] Voice 27: bylaw enforcement policy and there's any concerns about that that's appropriate in camera for trust

[4:10:09] Voice 27: council as it's a staffing thing the appropriate venue though for any individual for they got

[4:10:16] concerns about

[4:10:17] Voice 27: staff is through an administrative process trust council has a policy or to the

[4:10:23] Voice 27: ombudsperson of the province who would investigate that as an independent body so really for trust

[4:10:30] Voice 27: council it would just come down to a policy about enforcement uh staffing issues with the cao

[4:10:37] Voice 26: okay so then my from what you've just said david my understanding would be that it would be

[4:10:44] Voice 26: that i moved the trust council request the cao to prepare a report for the march 2023 trust

[4:10:50] Voice 26: press council meeting regarding bylaw enforcement policy sorry

[4:10:58] Voice 7: the CEO how's it going well of course

[4:11:02] Voice 7: but what aspect of it so

[4:11:07] Voice 26: I'm a little bit going back and forth now because the concern is so if

[4:11:13] Voice 26: I could have some suggestions on like how to address the concerns that were raised around

[4:11:18] Voice 26: safety and if the bylaw enforcement is following the bylaw enforcement policy or if our bylaw

[4:11:25] Voice 26: enforcement policy is not appropriate that is what was raised we

[4:11:29] Voice 7: have processes in place for

[4:11:31] Voice 7: that that's administrative fairness complaints so what you're doing we're introducing a new body

[4:11:36] Voice 7: that would um get involved in the process associated with individual complaints and it's

[4:11:44] i just don't have experience

[4:11:45] Voice 7: with that the system we have in place right now is the local trust

[4:11:49] Voice 7: committee um can sit on the specifics of my order

[4:11:52] Voice 18: all right um the one thing with these discussions

[4:11:58] Voice 18: is um we have to be operating from the same facts that's not what actually this motion does

[4:12:08] Voice 18: this motion is not in looking into an individual thing as has been just explained by trustee

[4:12:15] Voice 18: morrison it's about policy generally so let's not bring back this business of um individual some

[4:12:22] Voice 18: individual cases being examined that's not what's happening so let's let's choose our words carefully

[4:12:26] Voice 18: please thank

[4:12:28] Trustee Luckham: you for that advice um

[4:12:30] Voice 18: david mahler

[4:12:34] Voice 8: again yeah

[4:12:35] Voice 27: um i think if you for for this position

[4:12:40] Voice 27: of the delegation the I think the appropriate thing really is to advise the person who provides

[4:12:48] Voice 27: the delegation of the options for resolving their issue and that would be to write back to that

[4:12:55] Voice 27: person and provide that information which is the administrative finish process and the ombudsperson

[4:13:01] Voice 27: right so I'm not saying don't do this but that would be my recommendation right

[4:13:06] Trustee Luckham: so in the saying

[4:13:08] Trustee Luckham: In the letter that we would normally send to the delegate, what you're suggesting is that council may want to advise me to include the language that would refer the individual to administrative affairs complaint or the ombudsperson.

[4:13:26] Trustee Luckham: Correct.

[4:13:27] Trustee Luckham: Thank you.

[4:13:28] Trustee Luckham: So I'm going to come back to you, Deb Morrison, as that's your motion.

[4:13:33] Trustee Luckham: it hasn't been seconded yet um and and see what further and and indeed there's certainly uh that

[4:13:41] Trustee Luckham: it may also want to be referred to the social local trust committee i would just add that um so

[4:13:48] Trustee Luckham: dan

[4:13:48] Voice 26: so i'm going to take my motion i'm not going to move my motion fully i'm just i needed thought

[4:13:53] Voice 26: with it um so i'm going to take a few minutes and think that through i will need a few minutes thank

[4:13:59] Voice 26: you okay

[4:14:00] Trustee Luckham: so uh then there's a ton of hands up um not necessarily on this motion at this time um

[4:14:10] Trustee Luckham: and uh i'm just gonna open i'm just gonna go to the next speaker on the list uh whether or not

[4:14:15] Trustee Luckham: there's a new

[4:14:16] Voice 14: thank you thank you i have a motion that i've sent to staff um if claire could bring

[4:14:21] Voice 14: that up i'd be i'd be um i could read from that i do right thank you i would like to speak um about

[4:14:30] Voice 14: about it. So let's get it up on the screen. Do you have that

[4:14:35] Voice 14: Laurie? Is

[4:14:36] Voice 8: that the one that you mentioned?

[4:14:40] Voice 14: And I know, you know, the time and everything is an issue here,

[4:14:44] Voice 14: but I think that that really speaks to why we need to look at

[4:14:49] Voice 14: this right now. Go ahead, Jamie. Okay.

[4:14:54] Voice 14: So the thought of the trust having tree cutting authority

[4:14:57] Voice 14: over our island communities has caused a very large segment of our communities

[4:15:02] Voice 14: great anxiety i don't use this lightly large numbers of hard-working upstanding

[4:15:07] Voice 14: community members including many local indigenous so jamie personally can i just

[4:15:15] Trustee Luckham: ask you a question

[4:15:15] Trustee Luckham: is this to do with the disposition of delegation yes

[4:15:19] Voice 14: with david donison's if you could let me get

[4:15:21] Voice 14: to it okay okay including many local indigenous have personally came to tell me about the negative

[4:15:32] Voice 14: of effect that the thought of the IT having more tree-cutting authority has had on their day-to-day

[4:15:39] Voice 14: lives, sleepless nights included. We already have DPAs and riparian zones that are working very well

[4:15:45] Voice 14: of preserving and protecting. Do we really want to make it harder or next to impossible for many

[4:15:50] Voice 14: hard-working members of our community, including local Indigenous, to put food on their families'

[4:15:55] Voice 14: tables? And with the magnitude of possible implications that David Dunison's delegation

[4:16:01] Voice 14: obligation has brought to light, it is quite possible the Islands Trust has been barking up

[4:16:05] Voice 14: the wrong tree. Further, given the Trust Council's interest in reining in spending

[4:16:11] Voice 14: and a clear desire for structural change, and taking note that Trust Council has already

[4:16:17] Voice 14: directed staff to remove the topic of tree cutting authorities to be removed from the

[4:16:23] Voice 14: draft policy statement into consideration, I move that the Islands Trust Council request staff

[4:16:30] Voice 14: to promptly inform the province that it no longer wishes to proceed with its request

[4:16:35] Voice 14: that the province enhance the trust jurisdiction over tree cutting bylaws to make its jurisdiction

[4:16:40] Voice 14: equal to that of municipalities under section 8 of the community charter and also request staff

[4:16:46] Voice 14: to remove that to remove the task from the trust council's follow-up action list thank

[4:16:53] Voice 12: you thank

[4:16:58] Voice 12: Thank you, Trustee Harris.

[4:17:04] Trustee Luckham: I'm having a hard time tying the disposition of delegation to what is,

[4:17:09] Trustee Luckham: but I understand the where as portion of that.

[4:17:14] Trustee Luckham: And so I'm going to call for a seconder, I think, on this motion.

[4:17:18] Trustee Luckham: And so is there a seconder on the motion?

[4:17:20] Trustee Luckham: There's

[4:17:21] Voice 19: all kinds of hands up.

[4:17:22] Trustee Luckham: Say again?

[4:17:25] Voice 19: I second the motion.

[4:17:27] Voice 12: Is that Tim Peterson?

[4:17:31] Voice 19: Yes, sir.

[4:17:32] Trustee Luckham: Yeah.

[4:17:34] Trustee Luckham: It gets difficult.

[4:17:36] Trustee Luckham: We need another set of hands

[4:17:37] Trustee Luckham: and another button that's moving in seconds.

[4:17:39] Trustee Luckham: So thank you very much,

[4:17:41] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Harris and Trustee Peterson.

[4:17:43] Trustee Luckham: Do you wish to speak to your motion further,

[4:17:45] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Harris?

[4:17:47] Voice 14: No, thank you.

[4:17:48] Voice 14: I hope today I came across clear.

[4:17:51] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, no, that's good.

[4:17:52] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, thank you.

[4:17:53] Trustee Luckham: And so, Trustees,

[4:17:56] Trustee Luckham: is there any discussion on the motion

[4:18:00] Trustee Luckham: that I'm going to call?

[4:18:01] Trustee Luckham: Okay, there's a hand up there.

[4:18:04] Trustee Luckham: Deb Morrison on the motion that's on the floor.

[4:18:07] Voice 26: Yes, thank you. I was just trying to

[4:18:12] Voice 26: kind of look back at the pieces of the trust policy statement amendment because I felt like

[4:18:18] Voice 26: this might have fallen into some of the things that were inside that around advocacy policies,

[4:18:24] Voice 26: but frankly I'm struggling with the timing of this particular thing. So I don't feel like I can

[4:18:34] Voice 26: appropriately respond to this is quite a significant ask and i guess the move would be

[4:18:43] Voice 26: to uh postpone this to the march meeting because i feel like it needs conversation with the tps

[4:18:52] Voice 26: pieces so i think i move to postpone this motion to the march 2023 meeting

[4:19:03] Trustee Luckham: okay so uh that's a motion to postpone um do i i'll wait for that to come up on the screen

[4:19:10] Trustee Luckham: that's pretty obvious is there a seconder for the motion to postpone uh trustee boland is that

[4:19:17] Trustee Luckham: you seconding uh

[4:19:20] Voice 23: if i could speak just for a moment yes postpone wouldn't be dreadful given

[4:19:25] Voice 23: that people have to get their heads around this but i'd like to speak to the issue um and tim

[4:19:30] Voice 23: perhaps can back me up on this. At the discussion

[4:19:34] Voice 23: around... I

[4:19:36] Trustee Luckham: would like to second the motion

[4:19:38] Trustee Luckham: before we get anywhere here. And then it's

[4:19:42] Trustee Luckham: an item for council to discuss. See how that's postponed

[4:19:46] Trustee Luckham: in itself,

[4:19:47] Voice 7: does not have discussion associated with it. It does if it's

[4:19:50] Voice 7: going to another meeting. Okay.

[4:19:52] Voice 12: Is there a seconder

[4:19:54] Voice 12: for the motion to postpone?

[4:19:58] Trustee Luckham: I'm not...

[4:19:59] Trustee Luckham: oh okay there's a judy getty thank you very much judy so this is now uh a motion to postpone

[4:20:07] Trustee Luckham: there is discussion um permitted here because it's going to a future meeting and so now discussion

[4:20:15] Trustee Luckham: on the postponement um and i i'm going to recognize jamie harris deb morrison

[4:20:20] Voice 12: my

[4:20:21] Trustee Luckham: only concern with

[4:20:22] Voice 14: um my only concern with postponing this is that will there be discussion

[4:20:27] Voice 14: with the province between now and then that's why I said I think timing is of the essence here but

[4:20:32] Voice 14: maybe you could help me out with that thanks oh I see

[4:20:35] Voice 14: honestly I think

[4:20:36] Trustee Luckham: not um but that's a good

[4:20:39] Trustee Luckham: question and we can take it into consideration certainly yeah so Deb Morrison so

[4:20:49] Voice 26: and Jamie that

[4:20:50] Voice 26: was actually my specific question earlier about having the the what can the EC reasonably say to

[4:20:58] Voice 26: the province my thought on that is that the ec does not have authority to speak on this issue

[4:21:05] Voice 26: for this council because we haven't had time to talk through all these issues as this council

[4:21:12] Voice 26: so my assumption given our earlier answers is that no the ec or the chair can't speak on behalf of

[4:21:20] Voice 26: this council on this issue but that this issue should requires more time that's all i'm saying

[4:21:25] Voice 26: saying is that i just really think we should we should talk about this because it is a contentious

[4:21:29] Voice 26: issue across the council and i want to give it its due in conversation so

[4:21:34] Voice 7: when a previous trust

[4:21:37] Voice 7: council says go do something we go do it and we don't if there's a motion on the floor so we would

[4:21:46] Voice 7: staff you would proceed with whatever that is so that's the first everything that a previous trust

[4:21:52] Voice 7: council has decided doesn't get brought to the next trust council for a reconsideration

[4:21:56] Voice 7: it's an information consideration and if it's like a comprehensive package of initiatives like

[4:22:03] Voice 7: let's review the islands trust certainly you would start to do undertake that work that being said

[4:22:09] Voice 7: i've had no conversations with the ministry on this topic in six months and there's a new minister

[4:22:15] Voice 7: in i do not think if you're asking my opinion i do not think this is on the table in the next

[4:22:21] Voice 7: three months for conversation if that makes any um if that provides

[4:22:25] Voice 14: any comfort so well can there

[4:22:28] Voice 14: be some sort of commitment to it basically being deferred until that time or have it have it um

[4:22:37] Voice 14: rescinded the request and then we can talk about it again at the next meeting and if we want to

[4:22:42] Voice 14: vote on it we'll vote on it again you

[4:22:46] Trustee Luckham: know um i'm just going to say i'm and and being frank with you

[4:22:52] Trustee Luckham: there has been no conversation with the ministry with respect to this from the political level

[4:22:57] Trustee Luckham: since the motion got advanced to them um and that despite some of the material that has been

[4:23:06] Trustee Luckham: circulated recently about the chair of honest trust council meeting with the minister of forest

[4:23:10] Trustee Luckham: i can tell you absolutely i have not met with the minister of forest and um and so i would be

[4:23:18] Trustee Luckham: disingenuous I think for executive committee or myself to advance a topic in any way shape or form

[4:23:24] Trustee Luckham: where there is clearly a motion that is in the interest of council that is being discussed

[4:23:31] Trustee Luckham: so I certainly have no interest in advancing this and I think actually quite honestly there's not a

[4:23:38] Trustee Luckham: lot of excitement at the ministry from the kind of the feeling I'm getting with respect to advancing

[4:23:44] Trustee Luckham: this because it's not clear. The advice about the similar equal to that of municipalities

[4:23:50] Trustee Luckham: doesn't necessarily apply to Trust Council. And I think that there's a lot more conversation if

[4:23:57] Trustee Luckham: this is ever going to go forward. And indeed, the conversation at Trust Programs Committee

[4:24:03] Trustee Luckham: with respect to the draft policy statement is integral to that. And this isn't going anywhere

[4:24:09] Trustee Luckham: out at this time and i might be speaking out of order but that's my gut feeling on where this is

[4:24:14] Trustee Luckham: at at this time so postponing it to march good idea oh

[4:24:19] Voice 14: taking into consideration everything you

[4:24:21] Voice 14: just said mr chair wouldn't make sense to move forward with this and then start fresh at another

[4:24:27] Voice 14: point when um because if this clearly isn't going in the direction that it was going to wouldn't be

[4:24:31] Voice 14: nice just to uh clear it off the table and have a clean slate you're you're right but that is a

[4:24:36] Trustee Luckham: decision of council and David Marley you have some advice for me

[4:24:40] Voice 27: just I wasn't going to repeat

[4:24:42] Voice 27: what you and the CEO say that that was my initial comments the only other comment to have is right

[4:24:46] Voice 27: now you've got the postpone on on the table um there is an option for council they're not

[4:24:52] Voice 27: comfortable they could just pass a resolution to uh tell the executive committee not to do any work

[4:24:58] Voice 27: on this until after March Trust Council that's an option

[4:25:01] Trustee Luckham: we could micromanage if we wanted to

[4:25:03] Trustee Luckham: I don't think that that's a necessity.

[4:25:06] Trustee Luckham: There's a certain element of trust that's necessary.

[4:25:11] Trustee Luckham: And there you go.

[4:25:12] Trustee Luckham: My reputation is at stake.

[4:25:18] Trustee Luckham: So I've got a bunch of hands up, and I'm not sure,

[4:25:21] Trustee Luckham: but there is a motion to postpone on the table.

[4:25:25] Trustee Luckham: I would like to hear from speakers on the motion to postpone.

[4:25:30] Trustee Luckham: And Tim Peterson.

[4:25:35] Voice 19: Thank you.

[4:25:36] Voice 19: Chair, for the reasons that Trustee Morrison mentioned, I'm perfectly happy to postpone.

[4:25:43] Voice 19: In terms of conversation with the minister, I would expect that if the minister did bring this topic up,

[4:25:52] Voice 19: that the executive could just mention that we have this motion that's being postponed to March

[4:26:00] Voice 19: and that we you know trust council is looking at the possibility of uh withdrawing that request

[4:26:10] Voice 19: and i think that should well

[4:26:11] Trustee Luckham: absolutely um um in anything to do with anything with the honest

[4:26:17] Trustee Luckham: trust my answer would be is i have a new council and these topics have not been discussed and we

[4:26:22] Trustee Luckham: will be reporting back in the future so trustee middleton thank

[4:26:30] Voice 1: you yeah i think this is a clear

[4:26:32] Voice 1: item of business before is that we we don't need to postpone um going into the minister's offices

[4:26:38] Voice 1: i'll do respect vice chair peterson with that kind of story would get you shown the door pretty

[4:26:42] Voice 1: quickly because you're approaching with such a lack of clarity that um you'd be perceived as

[4:26:48] Voice 1: time wasting so i say let's tend to our own business we know that we need to have a broader

[4:26:53] Voice 1: discussion on forest management we've talked about that several times in relationship to the

[4:26:59] Voice 1: policy statement. We know that the tree cutting bylaw is unnecessarily, the conversation thereof

[4:27:06] Voice 1: is unnecessarily divisive. Let's put that to bed now. I'm not saying we don't need to pay

[4:27:11] Voice 1: attention to force management in the trust area, but let's have that conversation and let's put

[4:27:15] Voice 1: this divisive discussion of a bylaw to bed today. Thank you.

[4:27:24] Voice 14: Yeah, I'd like to reiterate what

[4:27:28] Voice 14: what Lee says there, and also just to mention.

[4:27:32] Voice 14: If

[4:27:32] Trustee Luckham: I might call my own point of order,

[4:27:34] Trustee Luckham: Lee Middleton was the speaker,

[4:27:37] Trustee Luckham: and I would like to proceed with the speaker's list.

[4:27:40] Trustee Luckham: And please do not speak until I acknowledge you.

[4:27:43] Trustee Luckham: I think

[4:27:43] Voice 1: that's just what we

[4:27:44] Trustee Luckham: just learned a moment ago.

[4:27:46] Trustee Luckham: And I don't like to use that kind of stern direction,

[4:27:52] Trustee Luckham: but here we go.

[4:27:53] Trustee Luckham: So Lee Middleton, thank you.

[4:27:54] Trustee Luckham: and by coincidence, Justy Harris, you are the next speaker.

[4:27:59] Trustee Luckham: Yeah,

[4:28:00] Voice 14: sorry for jumping the gun there.

[4:28:01] Voice 14: And I appreciate the scolding.

[4:28:05] Voice 14: So, and again, sorry, I appreciate the scolding.

[4:28:09] Voice 14: I want to reiterate what Lee mentioned

[4:28:11] Voice 14: and to ask others who are considering

[4:28:15] Voice 14: wanting to postpone this and just to say to them

[4:28:19] Voice 14: that there's many, many people

[4:28:21] Voice 14: will be able to sleep better at night

[4:28:23] Voice 14: if we get this off the table right now and again like we had said clearly there

[4:28:28] Voice 14: are discussions to be had and and we can have those in the future thank

[4:28:35] Trustee Luckham: you Jamie

[4:28:41] Trustee Luckham: so council we are at 1 30 I suggested we might take an hour of overtime we're

[4:28:48] Trustee Luckham: clearly well into that hour over and beyond and so if it's council's interest

[4:28:53] Trustee Luckham: to continue the discussion on these remaining items then I'm going to

[4:28:57] Trustee Luckham: to proceed until we're done. And if there's objections to that, then I'd like to hear that

[4:29:02] Trustee Luckham: now. Otherwise, I'm going to go to Deb Morrison for further discussion. And I don't see any of

[4:29:09] Trustee Luckham: the hands jumping up. So Deb Morrison, over to you.

[4:29:11] Voice 26: Thank you. So the only additional thing I

[4:29:14] Voice 26: would add is that I have forwarded Trustee, oh, wow, sorry, I'm losing track of new names,

[4:29:22] Voice 26: trustee harris uh a version of a follow-up motion to address his concern um i do think this requires

[4:29:30] Voice 26: more time and thought it was a complicated issue and i don't think that i necessarily agree with

[4:29:35] Voice 26: what we come out with with with some of the conversation if we had time to more fully

[4:29:41] Voice 26: uh engage in this particular motion thank you thank

[4:29:44] Trustee Luckham: you so the motion on the floor is what

[4:29:46] Trustee Luckham: we're talking about to postpone at this time and so uh trustee getty and if there's no other

[4:29:52] Trustee Luckham: speakers then i'll call the vote on the motion to postpone trustee getty um

[4:29:57] Voice 25: i am not familiar with

[4:30:00] Voice 25: pre-cutting bylaws. We have not had that discussion on Bowen. We've just had an election,

[4:30:07] Voice 25: and I understand that Trustee Harris is very much closer to this than I am. But if I'm going to

[4:30:13] Voice 25: understand any of this, I'm going to have to have a lot more information. So that's why I'm

[4:30:21] Voice 25: supporting the motion to postpone it. So I apologize to the people that are losing sleep

[4:30:29] Voice 25: leap over this but um if we're going to make an informed decision that i need more information

[4:30:34] Trustee Luckham: thank you trustee getty so i'm not seeing any other speakers at this time i'll get you to lower

[4:30:40] Trustee Luckham: your hand judy and therefore i'm going to call the vote on the motion to postpone all those in

[4:30:48] Trustee Luckham: favor to postpone okay i've

[4:31:01] Trustee Luckham: got 12 yes and so therefore i uh will ask you to lower your hands

[4:31:08] Trustee Luckham: council sorry

[4:31:13] Voice 26: i don't believe i raised my hand i just went to lower it and it looked like i hadn't

[4:31:17] Voice 26: raised it so can we just recall the count sorry about that okay

[4:31:24] Trustee Luckham: i'm going to recall please raise

[4:31:26] Trustee Luckham: your hand if you're in favor in

[4:31:31] Voice 8: favor please raise your hand i see 13. those in favor of postponement

[4:31:44] Trustee Luckham: all right so 13 was the number we have thank you please lower your hands council and now

[4:31:56] Trustee Luckham: lowering your hands everybody there's one hand okay thank you um now those opposed

[4:32:04] Trustee Luckham: okay so that's eight eight opposed to uh postponement so that care the motion carries

[4:32:24] Trustee Luckham: to postpone. And so we will have a discussion at Trust Council in March with respect to this item.

[4:32:33] Trustee Luckham: I want to thank you, Trustee Harris, for bringing this topic to us. I think it's an important

[4:32:38] Trustee Luckham: conversation that we've now decided to have in the future. So I'm going to come back now to

[4:32:45] Trustee Luckham: delegations. Are there further motions or direction that Council wants to provide with respect to the

[4:32:53] Trustee Luckham: delegations um on from tuesday so trustee evans over to you i'd

[4:33:01] Voice 22: like to go back to deb morrison's

[4:33:03] Voice 22: um motion um i think it's really important for people to understand that there are other islands

[4:33:15] Voice 22: exhibiting or reporting similar issues so perhaps we could have um an educational session at the

[4:33:23] Voice 22: the next meeting regarding the by-law enforcement as a starting place?

[4:33:31] Trustee Luckham: I'm

[4:33:31] Voice 22: open to discussion on that.

[4:33:33] Trustee Luckham: That's a fantastic suggestion, Christina Evans. I think

[4:33:38] Trustee Luckham: that indeed an information piece, an information session at council about by-law enforcement

[4:33:44] Trustee Luckham: policy broadly would be perhaps helpful. And so I do need a motion, but I actually want to respect

[4:33:51] Trustee Luckham: fact that uh trustee morrison has a motion that she was going to come back to it has not been

[4:33:57] Trustee Luckham: seconded at this time and so i would like to ask trustee morrison given what we've also just heard

[4:34:04] Trustee Luckham: where are you at with your motion trustee morrison thank you yes

[4:34:08] Voice 26: i forwarded it thank you very much

[4:34:10] Voice 26: laurie for putting it up thank you and i just um sent it over to um ceo hudson pillar too so i move

[4:34:17] Voice 26: that executive committee include a session on bylaw enforcement policy and practice in the

[4:34:21] Voice 26: march 2023 trust council meeting agenda thank

[4:34:25] Trustee Luckham: you very much deb is there a seconder for the motion

[4:34:29] Voice 15: sam borthwick seconding thank

[4:34:32] Trustee Luckham: you sam appreciate that um good clarity on your seconding um

[4:34:38] Trustee Luckham: and so therefore that's moved and seconded are there do you wish to speak to the motion further

[4:34:42] Trustee Luckham: Yes,

[4:34:43] Voice 26: thank you. Just, I understand the concerns about it being on an individual motion and I think as a trust council what we need to understand is it may be an in camera session that the executive committee is open to figuring that out.

[4:34:56] Voice 26: But what we really need to understand is where is by what is by law enforcement doing what are the practices and policies and procedures, and, you know, ask our questions.

[4:35:06] Voice 26: so thank you

[4:35:07] Trustee Luckham: excellent thank you is there any discussion on the motion i see aaron campbell

[4:35:12] Trustee Luckham: and joe bernardo on the motion i think aaron lowered his hand so i'm going to go to joe

[4:35:22] Trustee Luckham: bernardo thank

[4:35:24] Voice 18: you uh i'm speaking to support the motion um and i also want to make an observation

[4:35:31] Voice 18: i don't feel very good about hearing staff declare that some aspect of its work is off

[4:35:37] Voice 18: off-limits the scrutiny of the Trust Council. That's not how it works. It's quite right that

[4:35:44] Voice 18: we have no business putting our thumbs on the scale of any individual case. It is absolutely

[4:35:50] Voice 18: our business to examine and assess how we, as a governmental body, do enforcement. The original

[4:35:58] Voice 18: motion and this one are both about examining and assessing our policies and practices in that area.

[4:36:06] Voice 18: And let's not confuse the two. Just because we have an individual person who's got some

[4:36:14] Voice 18: enforcement issues comes forward as a delegation to make generic complaints about our system

[4:36:21] Voice 18: doesn't delegitimize what she's going to say. She made principled policy points

[4:36:29] Voice 18: that are legitimate. Whatever her history is, is kind of irrelevant. So let's not confuse the fact

[4:36:36] Voice 18: that she has a history or appears to have a history with the fact that she raised a legitimate

[4:36:41] Voice 18: question this motion just like the other one is pretty straightforward it's basically let's look

[4:36:48] Voice 18: at how we do enforcement generally there's nothing wrong with that in fact it's crucial

[4:36:52] Voice 18: enforcement is the public face of the island's trust for many many people it may well be the

[4:36:58] Voice 18: only time they actually ever encounter the island's trust in a real way and um it's incumbent

[4:37:06] Voice 18: on us to manage that process and to be confident that we're managing that process in a way that

[4:37:14] Voice 18: earns the trust of the people we're enforcing those bylaws for. If we get into a situation

[4:37:21] Voice 18: where we find ourselves basically antagonizing people unnecessarily, and I am not saying that's

[4:37:28] Voice 18: happening, but if we find ourselves in that situation, we are opening up a world of trouble

[4:37:33] Voice 18: for ourselves and it's not responsible for us to ignore that possibility when

[4:37:38] Voice 18: we receive signals that there's a there might be a problem it's incumbent on us

[4:37:44] Voice 18: to look into it again not on an individual basis but on a general

[4:37:49] Voice 18: systemic basis that's why I'm supporting the motion thank you sir

[4:37:54] Trustee Luckham: Sam Borthwick and Aaron Campbell yes

[4:37:58] Voice 15: I want to just echo and I appreciate

[4:38:02] Voice 15: trustee Bernardo's talking about concern about this discussion coming before this

[4:38:10] Voice 15: body this is our role in in as a part of that ecosystem as a part of that system

[4:38:16] Voice 15: if there is a suggestion and certainly like trustee Evans said this is not

[4:38:23] Voice 15: isolated these concerns are not isolated to Salt Spring or the or the the

[4:38:28] Voice 15: delegate um if there's a systemic problem that's going on it is absolutely our mandate to

[4:38:34] Voice 15: investigate that too exhaustively um and i'm very strongly in favor of this motion

[4:38:42] Voice 15: thank

[4:38:43] Trustee Luckham: you sam and indeed let's hear let's have this session and learn about

[4:38:48] Trustee Luckham: bylaw enforcement and we'll be better prepared for future conversations trustee uh campbell

[4:38:53] Trustee Luckham: yeah

[4:38:56] Voice 17: i'm on i'm i'm very in uh in support of this motion um i'm unsure in the in what is going on

[4:39:07] Voice 17: with the discussions on these delegations as to when if you have more to add to it um

[4:39:15] Voice 17: you should speak up because i've put my hand up and down about 35 times so far to get to this point

[4:39:23] Voice 17: um and i don't have anything really to add to this i do have to add to uh

[4:39:31] Voice 17: the discussion on her delegation though okay

[4:39:37] Trustee Luckham: well um let's deal with this motion and if you

[4:39:40] Trustee Luckham: want um the notion of the disposition of delegations is for trust counsel or myself

[4:39:48] Trustee Luckham: as the chair to take some action with respect to the delegation but let's come back to that

[4:39:52] Trustee Luckham: that. Let's focus on this direction here specifically. And you're right, Trustee Campbell, that if

[4:40:02] Trustee Luckham: at least I'm thinking that you're right, that we're not necessarily specifically

[4:40:10] Trustee Luckham: acting on the delegation. And perhaps the message back to, I'm just sort of rambling here a little

[4:40:18] Trustee Luckham: bit, and I apologize for that. I'm trying to be clear. Perhaps in the letter from the chair

[4:40:22] Trustee Luckham: with respect to the delegation would be that exactly that council has requested a information

[4:40:27] Trustee Luckham: session on bylaw enforcement policy and practice um etc so at this point in time thank you aaron

[4:40:35] Trustee Luckham: i'll get you to lower your hand and you can raise your hand when we dealt with this motion again if

[4:40:39] Trustee Luckham: you have something uh further action you'd like us to take um is there any further discussion on

[4:40:45] Trustee Luckham: the motion on the floor then i'm going to call for

[4:40:48] Voice 8: the vote on the motion on the floor all those

[4:40:50] Voice 8: in favor?

[4:40:59] Trustee Luckham: Looks like 21 in favor. So please lower your hands, council. Are there any opposed?

[4:41:09] Trustee Luckham: None opposed. So that carries. So thank you, council. I'll ask again, is there any further

[4:41:19] Trustee Luckham: action the council would like to take with respect to this position of delegations? Deb Morrison

[4:41:26] Trustee Luckham: and Erin Campbell I

[4:41:28] Voice 26: defer to Erin thank

[4:41:30] Trustee Luckham: you so please lower your hand Erin Campbell thank you

[4:41:34] Voice 17: um I I feel like uh a little bit like Jamie did uh with the tree cutting bylaw and that

[4:41:45] Voice 17: um there needs to be more done about this uh issue faster than down the road

[4:41:56] Voice 17: and I had prepared a motion and then through discussing with David

[4:42:06] Voice 17: Marler a little bit about what the best way to get discussion around it without us being here

[4:42:14] Voice 17: for the rest of the night would be to give a notice of motion for March Trust Council

[4:42:20] Voice 17: Council, and then work on an RFD for then. So I wanted to present that to everyone, if I could.

[4:42:31] Voice 17: Please do. So hold on, I gotta scroll back through some emails here to get the right wording.

[4:42:41] Voice 17: Is there something that you have there?

[4:42:43] Voice 27: I've always got a copy of it. What exactly?

[4:42:46] Voice 12: I'm not clear.

[4:42:52] Voice 12: So

[4:42:55] Voice 17: basically, as long as I'm wording this right, I'm giving notice of motion for March

[4:43:01] Voice 17: Trust Council.

[4:43:02] Voice 17: The motion will be, I move that the Islands Trust suspend the proactive enforcement model

[4:43:08] Voice 17: and all associated files pending a full review of bylaw enforcement by a nonpartisan third

[4:43:14] Voice 17: party that is at arm's length from the Islands Trust to ensure that complaints are free of

[4:43:20] Voice 17: a bias of predetermined guilt.

[4:43:22] Voice 17: include a right to appeal and a neutral body to appeal to,

[4:43:26] Voice 17: and that any complaint driven issues

[4:43:29] Voice 17: by enforcement be vetted by individual local trustees

[4:43:35] Voice 17: to ensure fairness in keeping with each island's uniqueness

[4:43:39] Voice 17: with the goal of creating a new model of enforcement

[4:43:41] Voice 17: based on fairness and democratic principles.

[4:43:47] Trustee Luckham: Okay, so do we have that on the screen?

[4:43:51] Trustee Luckham: So this is a notice of motion.

[4:43:53] Trustee Luckham: motion and um so I think that would just be recorded in the minutes and I would have asked

[4:43:59] Trustee Luckham: you to be working with staff with David Mahler perhaps uh no

[4:44:04] Voice 27: I could be with the director of

[4:44:05] Trustee Luckham: planning most likely director of planning um ask you to work with the director of planning

[4:44:10] Trustee Luckham: with perspective advancing this for Council um in March thank you um so I don't think we need to

[4:44:21] Trustee Luckham: to vote on this, we just received that.

[4:44:23] Trustee Luckham: So thank you Trustee Campbell for your notice of motion.

[4:44:29] Trustee Luckham: And I'm gonna continue on then at this point

[4:44:32] Trustee Luckham: for get you to lower your hand.

[4:44:36] Trustee Luckham: And Deb Morrison, I see your hand now

[4:44:40] Trustee Luckham: and also Christina Evans

[4:44:41] Trustee Luckham: with respect to disposition of delegations.

[4:44:45] Voice 26: Thank you.

[4:44:47] Voice 26: I do want to acknowledge that we're a new council

[4:44:50] Voice 26: Council and as a new Council there's many different things that are challenging for us and because of

[4:44:56] Voice 26: that even though I actually uh probably have different quite different opinions than Trustee

[4:45:02] Voice 26: Harris I would like to put um the motion that I sent to Lori um if you have it you can throw it

[4:45:08] Voice 26: on the screen I forwarded it to you from the email to Trustee Harris Lori um that I would like to

[4:45:14] Voice 26: move that EC and staff do not pursue conversations with the province around tree cutting until after

[4:45:19] Voice 26: the March 2023 meeting.

[4:45:23] Trustee Luckham: Sure. So let's get that up on the screen.

[4:45:28] Voice 26: And I'd like to speak to that

[4:45:30] Voice 26: when it comes up. I can start now if you want. Oh no, we have to second it first, I think.

[4:45:34] Trustee Luckham: Yeah. So that's the motion on the floor. Is there a seconder? I second it. Seconded by

[4:45:41] Trustee Luckham: Jamie Harris. Thank you. And Deb Morris, you wish to speak to it?

[4:45:45] Voice 26: Yes, please. This is potentially

[4:45:46] Voice 26: the only motion that Trustee Harris and I made, I'll be honest. And so I have very conservative

[4:45:55] Voice 26: opinions when it comes to tree cutting, but my issue is that we are a new council. We came in

[4:46:01] Voice 26: related to a lot of different issues in the community that I really think we need to share

[4:46:07] Voice 26: and envision and understand each other. Because personally, I've been put in the position often

[4:46:12] Voice 26: where I'm like the one who stops all tree cutting, which is totally not my stance. And you will

[4:46:17] Voice 26: understand that when you get to know me. But at the same time, I think that we need to really

[4:46:22] Voice 26: understand that and understand what tree cutting provisions are, understand that deeply. And I just

[4:46:30] Voice 26: feel like, and this is not a critique of the EC or staff. It is just a comfort level as trustees

[4:46:38] Voice 26: that we need to build trust among us

[4:46:40] Voice 26: to be able to ensure that those conversations

[4:46:43] Voice 26: were going to norm to each other

[4:46:45] Voice 26: and as a council before we go ahead.

[4:46:47] Voice 26: The vote was simply too close

[4:46:49] Voice 26: about whether we dismiss or not.

[4:46:50] Voice 26: And I think we need confidence

[4:46:53] Voice 26: that no conversations will go forward

[4:46:55] Voice 26: until we all discuss it more deeply.

[4:46:59] Trustee Luckham: Okay, that's moved and seconded.

[4:47:01] Trustee Luckham: Is there any further discussion

[4:47:02] Trustee Luckham: on the motion on the floor?

[4:47:05] Trustee Luckham: Not seeing any, I'm going to call for the vote.

[4:47:07] Trustee Luckham: All those in favor?

[4:47:17] Trustee Luckham: I think that's 20 in favor.

[4:47:18] Trustee Luckham: So please lower your hands, Council.

[4:47:24] Trustee Luckham: And any opposed?

[4:47:27] Trustee Luckham: None opposed.

[4:47:28] Trustee Luckham: That carries unanimously.

[4:47:30] Trustee Luckham: Thank you very much.

[4:47:32] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, Deb.

[4:47:33] Trustee Luckham: Any other direction that Council would like to take with respect to disposition of delegations?

[4:47:39] Trustee Luckham: Christina Evans.

[4:47:43] Voice 22: I just have a very quick favor to ask.

[4:47:46] Voice 22: Could you remind us of the other delegations that have come to us?

[4:47:50] Voice 22: The only reason why I'm asking is I have very spotty Wi-Fi, and I'm not able to look it up right now.

[4:47:56] Voice 22: I can't download the document.

[4:47:58] Trustee Luckham: Right or right.

[4:47:59] Trustee Luckham: That was David Dennison at 7.1, Review of Carbon Storage.

[4:48:04] Trustee Luckham: Millie Chandler, Democracy, Peace, and Bylaw Enforcement.

[4:48:07] Trustee Luckham: And 7.3 is Mary Beth Wando, Reducing Our Carbon Footprint.

[4:48:10] Trustee Luckham: And 7.4 was Michael Sketch, Structure of the Policy Statement.

[4:48:15] Trustee Luckham: So I'll ask again, are there any other direction?

[4:48:18] Trustee Luckham: other than the thank you letter that will go out to the and indeed a summary of some of the

[4:48:25] Trustee Luckham: direction that has been provided will be provided to the delegates if it reflects their interests.

[4:48:33] Trustee Luckham: So Deb Morrison over to you.

[4:48:35] Voice 26: All right you just reminded me something thank you for the question

[4:48:38] Voice 26: Christina. I would actually like to go on record just to have it in the meeting notes related to

[4:48:44] Voice 26: Mary Beth Rondeau's disposition. I was the trustee to write, not staff, I was the trustee

[4:48:52] Voice 26: to write the climate change emergency motion in collaboration with trustee Colburn, and staff did

[4:48:59] Voice 26: review it and look at it, but that is, it came across as if staff wrote that and it was misleading

[4:49:05] Voice 26: information. That's not accurate. Thank you.

[4:49:10] Trustee Luckham: So what do you want recorded in the minute?

[4:49:12] Trustee Luckham: that myself and

[4:49:14] Voice 26: trustee Colburn wrote the climate change emergency motion and that staff provided

[4:49:20] Voice 26: editing and revision but that it was trustee written okay

[4:49:26] Voice 8: thank you so we'll have that

[4:49:29] Voice 8: recorded

[4:49:29] Trustee Luckham: for any further act direction from delegation from delegations I'm seeing any

[4:49:39] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, Council, for your thoughtfulness with respect to the delegations.

[4:49:44] Trustee Luckham: So I'm going to move to page 291, section 10 of our agenda, which is correspondence.

[4:49:51] Trustee Luckham: We have a letter from Margie Gang and a need to review and restructure.

[4:49:59] Trustee Luckham: And normally we would receive that for information unless there's specific direction the Council

[4:50:05] Trustee Luckham: would like to take such as forwarding it to a committee perhaps the 2050 campaign or otherwise

[4:50:14] Trustee Luckham: is there any direction for the correspondence other than received for information

[4:50:21] Trustee Luckham: my read boland would

[4:50:24] Voice 23: it be appropriate to forward it to the governance committee

[4:50:28] Trustee Luckham: if you wish yes yes please thank you

[4:50:31] Trustee Luckham: can i get a motion to that effect oh

[4:50:35] Voice 23: on the fly this is a bit

[4:50:37] Voice 23: of a stress point okay uh i move that the correspondence received from marjorie gang

[4:50:43] Voice 23: marjorie gang and with respect to restructuring uh be forwarded to the governance committee for

[4:50:50] Voice 23: their consideration thank you thank you i seconded by toby elliott

[4:50:54] Trustee Luckham: i'm going to assume

[4:50:56] Trustee Luckham: thank you so that's moved and seconded do you wish to speak to the motion called pretty

[4:51:02] Trustee Luckham: straightforward so i'm gonna get you to lower your hands mover and seconder

[4:51:08] Trustee Luckham: and uh if there's nobody that wishes to speak to the motion i'll call the vote all those in favor

[4:51:21] Trustee Luckham: so that's uh 18 in favor please lower your hands council any opposed uh and i see two

[4:51:33] Trustee Luckham: david graham is

[4:51:34] Trustee Luckham: opposed is that correct the one opposed otherwise i'm not

[4:51:39] Voice 6: opposed sorry chair i

[4:51:40] Voice 6: can't get my bloody and there thank you could you please

[4:51:43] Trustee Luckham: correct your language i'll tell you

[4:51:46] Trustee Luckham: something less my apologies

[4:51:49] Trustee Luckham: that's all right

[4:51:50] Trustee Luckham: um i'm on the eli ellie mina role now council thank

[4:51:57] Trustee Luckham: you very much um so that carries and um um has been forwarded so that will be forwarded to the

[4:52:03] Trustee Luckham: governance committee so our next meeting now is to finalize him on our agenda today and remind me

[4:52:09] Trustee Luckham: that is going to be March the 10th, March 6th, 7th and 8th. And I'm not mistaken, that

[4:52:24] Trustee Luckham: concludes our meeting today. Council, Marie Boland, do you have some final remark here?

[4:52:33] Trustee Luckham: Well,

[4:52:35] Voice 23: I did have a very quick motion with respect to financial matters. And I don't

[4:52:41] Voice 23: know if i mean it is kind of it does have an impact and it is time constrained potentially

[4:52:48] Voice 23: i can speak to it very very quickly and then you can decide whether or not to go ahead

[4:52:52] Voice 23: there is a vacancy for a bylaw compliance officer and i would move that that vacancy is not filled

[4:53:02] Voice 23: for the moment until we um finalize

[4:53:06] Trustee Luckham: i would say

[4:53:06] Voice 23: until next year's budget basically yeah we just

[4:53:10] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, I'm sorry. That position has been filled. Okay.

[4:53:18] Voice 13: I can just say that this, this practice of trying to push forward motions that have nothing to do

[4:53:25] Voice 13: with the business, just, we cannot continue with this. I'm sorry. We need to follow process. So

[4:53:30] Voice 13: let's figure out a better way to do this so that we can all enjoy the meetings.

[4:53:37] Trustee Luckham: trustee elliot thank thank you for defending our friend the process and um but nonetheless that

[4:53:44] Trustee Luckham: has position has been filled and so that's uh that train has left the station i think

[4:53:49] Trustee Luckham: so thank you so council if there's no further business and judy getty sorry

[4:53:56] Voice 25: mr chair you

[4:53:57] Voice 25: mentioned the meeting was six seven and eight of march that's seven eight nine

[4:54:01] Trustee Luckham: Well, thank you very much. And so that will come up as a published date. So thank you for that.

[4:54:08] Trustee Luckham: So for the business council, I thank you all for the vigorous debate and getting us to this

[4:54:16] Trustee Luckham: point. And I look forward to seeing you at various committees in the future,

[4:54:20] Trustee Luckham: particularly in Council on March. Have a good rest of the day and enjoy the weekend.

[4:54:26] Trustee Luckham: I call the meeting to be adjourned. All those in favor?

[4:54:30] Trustee Luckham: and that carries, I'm sure.