Islands Trust Council regular meeting, December 19, 2024

[0:00:00] Trustee Patrick: his way all right we'll kick the meeting off and he can join us when he gets there are we all set

[0:00:06] Trustee Patrick: to go laurie

[0:00:08] Voice 10: yes we are live streaming recording broadcasting excellent

[0:00:12] Trustee Patrick: i'd like to call to order

[0:00:14] Trustee Patrick: this meeting of the cio hiring select committee uh excuse me we always acknowledge how fortunate

[0:00:23] Trustee Patrick: we are to be able to gather in the territories of the Salish First Nations. I'm Laura Patrick

[0:00:33] Trustee Patrick: and we have an agenda before us today. Is there any approvals or changes for this agenda?

[0:00:46] Trustee Patrick: Not seeing any, we can approve the, oops, sorry, go ahead, Trustee Peterson.

[0:00:51] Trustee Patrick: I

[0:00:52] Voice 6: just have a question about, obviously, we have hired, so at what point does the committee change its name as directed by Trust Council?

[0:01:09] Trustee Patrick: Well, I see David Marler's hand raised. Go ahead, David.

[0:01:13] Trustee Patrick: in

[0:01:14] Voice 2: yeah thank uh thank you the uh terms of reference um provide this committee

[0:01:20] Voice 2: the um the first you know six months probation evaluation um and then the other committee was

[0:01:27] Voice 2: your longer term um policy to uh evaluate your ceo because you don't actually have a policy on that

[0:01:37] Voice 2: at least not specific to that issue so you're kind of in an overlap today's meeting you're

[0:01:44] Voice 2: going to be acting partly as the ceo hiring committee um if you you know talking to the ceo

[0:01:51] Voice 2: in restricted about performance anything like that or expectations and then the other portion

[0:01:58] Voice 2: is working with leaders on your longer term more permanent policy for ceo evaluation generally

[0:02:09] Voice 6: Okay, thanks for the clarification.

[0:02:11] Trustee Patrick: There you go.

[0:02:12] Trustee Patrick: So we're two committees today, but we'll open as the CEO Select Committee.

[0:02:17] Trustee Patrick: Did Trustee Luckham join us yet?

[0:02:20] Trustee Luckham: I have joined you.

[0:02:21] Trustee Luckham: Apologies.

[0:02:22] Trustee Luckham: I had trouble with my neighbor and trouble with my computer all at the same time today.

[0:02:27] Trustee Patrick: All right.

[0:02:27] Trustee Patrick: We were just about to approve the agenda through general consent, and I'll let you – I assume that's happened.

[0:02:33] Trustee Patrick: No one has disagreed, so we've done that.

[0:02:36] Trustee Patrick: So it's over to you, Chair Luckham.

[0:02:39] Trustee Luckham: Okay, great. So, thank you and apologies for being late. Certainly, presuming that you've acknowledged that we're all meeting broadly on Coast Salish territory, and so I'll just chime in that I'm grateful to be here and grateful to have this opportunity with our new CAO, Ruben Brony. Good morning.

[0:03:01] Trustee Luckham: and um dude i'm just going to proceed um at this point having come in late so uh first item on the

[0:03:14] Trustee Luckham: agenda we have an open meeting and in camera so we have a briefing so at 3.1 performance evaluation

[0:03:20] Trustee Luckham: policy project with leaders international and um i think david and i talked about the events of this

[0:03:28] Trustee Luckham: meeting and that this portion would be initially open to the public and may or may not continue on

[0:03:35] Trustee Luckham: the camera portion but we're just talking about a developing policy so this is any discomfort

[0:03:41] Trustee Luckham: i think we'll just proceed and um david you brought this to us i heard you just uh talking

[0:03:47] Trustee Luckham: there about some of that material but um uh let's make sure we've covered it off yeah

[0:03:54] Voice 2: no you did

[0:03:55] Voice 2: and that's yeah this isn't an open meeting because it is just council policy that you're working on

[0:04:00] Voice 2: if during the discussion of that policy you feel you need to talk about specifics of an individual

[0:04:08] Voice 2: employee you can just move it in camera for that discussion

[0:04:13] Voice 4: okay

[0:04:17] Trustee Luckham: well I can't move that because

[0:04:23] Trustee Luckham: is not on my screen. Sorry. So yeah, I have to get my agenda on the other computer because I

[0:04:31] Trustee Luckham: switched computers here. So I can't scroll this up. Whoever's in charge of that.

[0:04:40] Voice 2: That would be

[0:04:41] Voice 2: Laurie. Yeah.

[0:04:42] Trustee Luckham: Right. Okay.

[0:04:43] Voice 9: I've got my hand up. Yeah,

[0:04:46] Trustee Luckham: go ahead. I just

[0:04:47] Voice 9: have a question. I noticed

[0:04:49] Voice 9: is that the CAO Broney is in this meeting considering the topic of what we're discussing

[0:04:55] Voice 9: I'm just wondering if that's appropriate and for which portions he's going to remain present for

[0:05:00] Voice 9: I just because we've had this discussion at council and council supported not having the

[0:05:08] Voice 9: CAO present when we're discussing the policy regarding the CAO so I'm just wondering if it's

[0:05:16] Voice 9: appropriate to have him in this meeting um

[0:05:20] Trustee Luckham: we certainly can um and in which case um and we're

[0:05:33] Trustee Luckham: going to have to go in camera for that um um if that's the what we want to do however i i also

[0:05:42] Trustee Luckham: think that at this juncture there's value in having the cao present in this conversation to

[0:05:47] Trustee Luckham: contribute to that. So I'd sort of like to get a general sense from others about the value of

[0:05:58] Trustee Luckham: having the current CAO participating in that conversation with respect to the policy itself.

[0:06:10] Trustee Luckham: So Trustee Peterson, Trustee Getty. I

[0:06:14] Voice 6: would just say in the absence of any other advice,

[0:06:17] Voice 6: it would seem to me that the public part of the meeting

[0:06:22] Voice 6: should be fine for the CAO to attend.

[0:06:26] Voice 6: And if there's parts of the closed meeting

[0:06:29] Voice 6: that are not appropriate, then that's fine.

[0:06:31] Voice 6: But that would be my initial take on that.

[0:06:35] Trustee Luckham: Okay. So, Trustee Getty?

[0:06:38] Voice 10: Similar comments.

[0:06:39] Voice 10: I thought that the closed meeting was without staff.

[0:06:44] Voice 5: Yeah.

[0:06:54] Trustee Luckham: So, is Leaders with us at this time, Nick?

[0:07:02] Trustee Luckham: I think from the public facing portion of this, what is it that you would like to present

[0:07:11] Trustee Luckham: to us with respect to the evaluation policy project that you're working on?

[0:07:17] Trustee Luckham: Where are we at and what can we anticipate with this process?

[0:07:22] Trustee Luckham: We've actually not been connected to the contracting or the discussion, and so we sort of need to know what it is you're doing, how that's going to contribute to the short-term evaluation in the first six-month period here, and what role you're going to play in supporting us in that with respect to the original contract work of finding CAO for us.

[0:07:51] Trustee Luckham: sorry

[0:07:52] Voice 9: I'm just going to call a point of order I couldn't um

[0:07:55] Voice 9: it's back to the original question

[0:07:58] Voice 9: that I that I posed it's there was a motion made by trust council not to involve the CAO

[0:08:05] Voice 9: in this so if there was a motion to that effect he shouldn't be here regardless of it being an

[0:08:12] Voice 9: open or otherwise it's I think that's inappropriate if there was a motion passed to that effect

[0:08:16] Voice 9: And I'd like to have that piece clarified.

[0:08:20] Voice 2: Yeah, if I may.

[0:08:22] Trustee Luckham: David Marla, go ahead.

[0:08:23] Voice 2: Yeah, so I'm looking at the open agenda for Trust Council when they passed the resolution for the Chief Administrative Officer Performance Evaluation Policy.

[0:08:35] Voice 2: And there are three motions there.

[0:08:38] Voice 2: First one was to establish the committee.

[0:08:40] Voice 2: The second one was to establish the terms of reference.

[0:08:44] Voice 2: reference and the third one was to spend up to 15 000 there's no motion to exclude the chief

[0:08:50] Voice 2: administrative officer in the minutes and there is no note or resolution to that effect um i can

[0:08:58] Voice 2: take a look at the in-camera but that in-camera motion would apply to the in-camera not the open

[0:09:03] Voice 2: portion so i'm not seeing that from council um so it might have

[0:09:09] Voice 9: been it might have been enclosed but

[0:09:11] Voice 9: But the chair was overruled on this by the Trust Council, if you recall, Chair Luckham, because you asked for that to be raised.

[0:09:20] Voice 9: And you were overruled on that.

[0:09:22] Voice 2: I'll check in camera.

[0:09:24] Trustee Luckham: I'm sorry.

[0:09:24] Trustee Luckham: So are you talking about a meeting when we originally started this process, not a most recent meeting?

[0:09:35] Voice 9: Correct.

[0:09:35] Voice 9: This was, I can't remember which meeting it was in.

[0:09:39] Voice 9: um i think it was it was i mean i think it might have been the march meeting during during finance

[0:09:46] Voice 9: at the beginning of the year when we were talking about um having the policy reviewed and having and

[0:09:55] Voice 9: it was in a and i recall the conversation surrounding it being inappropriate to have

[0:09:59] Voice 9: the ceo present for and this is where i'm looking for clarification okay there was something done

[0:10:08] Voice 9: done by trust counsel then I feel it's inappropriate to just because the CAO has changed if that ruling

[0:10:14] Voice 9: has is was was on the floor I still feel it might be inappropriate that and I'm just doing this for

[0:10:21] Voice 9: for um you know good good governance here no

[0:10:27] Trustee Luckham: I I now I've got a no

[0:10:30] Voice 9: offense to the current CAO I'm

[0:10:32] Voice 9: I'm just trying to make sure that what was yeah

[0:10:34] Trustee Luckham: that what

[0:10:35] Voice 9: was done by trust counsel is being

[0:10:36] Voice 9: upheld by this committee understood

[0:10:39] Trustee Luckham: and so now i um now i got a grasp on where we're going here um

[0:10:48] Trustee Luckham: and so indeed that motion um that direction did exist um and i'm sort of i am thinking that of

[0:10:57] Trustee Luckham: as being in the past because at that time it's obviously complicated and we're kind of messing

[0:11:05] Trustee Luckham: ourselves up a little bit. But at that time, it was felt that the discussion was going to

[0:11:11] Trustee Luckham: circulate around the activities of the incumbent CAO, and that that might not be a good conversation

[0:11:21] Trustee Luckham: to have with the person in the room. Obviously, at this juncture, there is a new person in that seat,

[0:11:28] Trustee Luckham: which that same criteria doesn't exist.

[0:11:32] Trustee Luckham: But you're right.

[0:11:34] Trustee Luckham: Council decided that the position in its motion determined that that person wouldn't be present.

[0:11:41] Trustee Luckham: And so if we want to follow that direction to the letter,

[0:11:50] Trustee Luckham: then indeed that position would, that person in that position would be excluded from the meeting.

[0:11:57] Trustee Luckham: And so one way or the other, if we're excluding anybody from the meeting, we would obviously have to go into in-camera to have that conversation.

[0:12:07] Trustee Luckham: And the CAO had attended the meeting when invited by the committee.

[0:12:16] Trustee Luckham: If I remember, maybe it only happened once, actually.

[0:12:20] Trustee Luckham: But there were times when the CAO did join us in order to provide advice.

[0:12:27] Trustee Luckham: And I think that moving forward here now, it is a different person, but let's just set that aside.

[0:12:34] Trustee Luckham: There is advice that we could benefit from.

[0:12:38] Trustee Luckham: But then that said, if we need to have new direction to advance this work, it will delay the work if we want to.

[0:12:48] Trustee Luckham: At some point, it'll be necessary to engage the CAO in this conversation.

[0:12:53] Trustee Luckham: um so um at the moment i think we're talking about the performance evaluation into the future

[0:13:01] Trustee Luckham: and we're not in it we're not in a uh an in-camera meeting so i'm not sure what direction to follow

[0:13:11] Trustee Luckham: here and i and i do see uh uh ceo brony's hands up and and i also see uh trustee getty i would

[0:13:20] Trustee Luckham: would like some legislative advice here from David Marler, but let's go to CAO Brony.

[0:13:27] Voice 4: Thank you, Chair. And I was just going to say, I appreciate both the origin and the intent of

[0:13:32] Voice 4: Trustee Evans' questions and comments very much. And I'm certainly happy to participate or not

[0:13:39] Voice 4: at the discretion of the committee. And we'll trust Director Marler's good advice on how best

[0:13:46] Voice 4: to navigate that as well thank you sure

[0:13:48] Trustee Luckham: and so thank you for that um um but indeed if we proceed

[0:13:52] Trustee Luckham: without you at this point of time no offense intended um but in order to at least advance

[0:13:59] Trustee Luckham: the work today um we may find it necessary to do that so um if that's all right trustee getty

[0:14:05] Trustee Luckham: unless you have something to offer ahead of david marler i would go with david mahler so

[0:14:10] Trustee Luckham: So can I do that?

[0:14:12] Trustee Luckham: Fine.

[0:14:13] Trustee Luckham: Okay.

[0:14:13] Trustee Luckham: David Marler.

[0:14:14] Voice 2: Yeah, thank you.

[0:14:16] Voice 2: Yeah, I haven't located that resolution, but I did remember that discussion back.

[0:14:23] Voice 2: It was probably September to March when the CAOHC was first established.

[0:14:29] Voice 2: It may have been the hiring committee that made that decision, which is totally fine.

[0:14:36] Voice 2: Yeah, so this is an open meeting.

[0:14:38] Voice 2: So even if you ask the CEO to exit the meeting,

[0:14:42] Voice 2: this has been broadcast and recorded.

[0:14:45] Voice 2: So the CEO could certainly just listen in

[0:14:48] Voice 2: if he so chose to do so, as could anybody else.

[0:14:51] Voice 2: So anything in this open meeting,

[0:14:54] Voice 2: whether the CEO is here and participating

[0:14:56] Voice 2: or here and listening, it's up to you as a committee,

[0:15:00] Voice 2: whether you want to take staff advice,

[0:15:02] Voice 2: we're here to provide that as CEOs as well.

[0:15:05] Voice 2: So in the open meeting,

[0:15:06] Voice 2: um i think it's best just to allow staff that are there to be there um if you do want to

[0:15:15] Voice 2: talk without the ceo there then you would have to go in camera like you did in the ceo hiring

[0:15:21] Voice 2: process where you go in camera because you would be talking about specifics of that individual

[0:15:26] Voice 2: and that is totally fine as a committee you can make that resolution to go in camera and under

[0:15:34] Voice 2: the legislation the committee has the right to invite or not invite any staff so you can

[0:15:40] Voice 2: go in camera for one of the reasons permitted which is a consideration of an employee it's

[0:15:46] Voice 2: already in a position and just don't invite the ceo tell the ceo is not invited or don't invite

[0:15:52] Voice 2: any staff it's entirely up to you so i hope that helps so this first section here the performance

[0:15:59] Voice 2: evaluation policy isn't open because this is going to be a council policy and as I said at the

[0:16:06] Voice 2: opening if you want to talk about some specifics to do with an employee then you can go in camera

[0:16:14] Voice 2: and have those discussions and then come back out into open to finish off whatever policy amendments

[0:16:20] Voice 2: you decide to make. If you're concerned about consideration of bias or anything like that in

[0:16:25] Voice 2: respect to the writing of this document because the ceo has had some input into it i wouldn't be

[0:16:31] Voice 2: too worried about that i think you as a committee of decision makers and you could invite the ceo to

[0:16:39] Voice 2: comment in certain areas where it may be appropriate i think when you're looking at

[0:16:45] Voice 2: this kind of a policy the ceo will have some more operational insight to offer you that maybe i can

[0:16:54] Voice 2: can offer or Laurie couldn't offer so it might be worthwhile to invite commentary at that time

[0:17:00] Voice 2: but beyond that as staff we're just here to provide the support to you for whatever you need

[0:17:08] Voice 2: whether that's advice or coming back with reports for you so I'm not sure if that's helped but

[0:17:15] Voice 2: there you go.

[0:17:19] Trustee Luckham: Okay Trustee Getty.

[0:17:21] Voice 10: I think without the resolution in front of us for clarity

[0:17:25] Voice 10: that we have to fall back on basic principles.

[0:17:28] Voice 10: And I think that an open meeting is an open meeting

[0:17:31] Voice 10: and anybody can hear and listen and speak up at it.

[0:17:34] Voice 10: We have our consultant here, it's 922.

[0:17:37] Voice 10: And we're talking about something

[0:17:39] Voice 10: that happened a long time ago

[0:17:40] Voice 10: that we don't have a direct reference to.

[0:17:42] Voice 10: So it's really hard to sort it out.

[0:17:44] Voice 10: And I think that I would ask that the committee

[0:17:47] Voice 10: have some flexibility at this point.

[0:17:50] Voice 10: And if we're gonna talk about specific attributes

[0:17:54] Voice 10: of a person or any kind of specifics about a person that's going to be

[0:17:59] Voice 10: enclosed and we have a closed session on the agenda so I think the general policy

[0:18:05] Voice 10: recommendations from leaders and with CAO Brony's input at this point in very

[0:18:13] Voice 10: general terms would be extremely helpful and if we get down to specifics where we

[0:18:19] Voice 10: we want to talk about the CAO's uptake in terms of the first couple of weeks,

[0:18:27] Voice 10: then that's part of the in-camera.

[0:18:29] Voice 10: And that's what we've got set up already for this meeting.

[0:18:33] Voice 10: So I think we just go ahead now with the general policy would be my request

[0:18:37] Voice 10: and my recommendation and deal with the specifics in closed.

[0:18:45] Trustee Luckham: That's exactly, I think, how we should proceed.

[0:18:47] Trustee Luckham: Are there any objections to that?

[0:18:48] Trustee Luckham: No,

[0:18:50] Voice 9: I just want to say thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.

[0:18:53] Trustee Luckham: Well, please accept also that I appreciate you raising the question because it is a good

[0:18:59] Trustee Luckham: question and we need clarity on that. So that's great. So can we then return to Nick to tell us

[0:19:07] Trustee Luckham: about the briefing that's in our package and then we will indeed move in camera and we can determine

[0:19:13] Trustee Luckham: at that juncture if we want to include the CAO and or can include the CAO and perhaps ask him

[0:19:20] Trustee Luckham: to leave if we want to go into a restricted in-camera. So let's go to Nick. Thank you,

[0:19:27] Voice 1: Chalo. Good morning, everyone. It's good to see everyone again. I know it's only been a relatively

[0:19:32] Voice 1: short period of time, but I'm glad that everything worked out and we're now here with Ruben and

[0:19:37] Voice 1: ready to move forward with the next phase of this process. So really, the purpose of this

[0:19:43] Voice 1: this meeting today, I think, is to really get a sense of what you're looking for in this CAO

[0:19:48] Voice 1: performance evaluation policy. Laurie gave me some dates, and I'd like to clarify just kind

[0:19:54] Voice 1: of timeline and those sorts of things as well in terms of milestone meetings. And I understand

[0:19:59] Voice 1: we're looking for a completion by March 31st in terms of everything fully wrapped up and ready

[0:20:06] Voice 1: to go from there. So we'll get into the nitty gritty of that a little bit as well. But essentially,

[0:20:11] Voice 1: Essentially, as to your initial question, Chair Luckham, as to what we've actually been contracted to do, there's three main points on the initial contract, and these are obviously open to interpretation and flexibility, and we're going to be working around several things, and you've pulled it up on the screen there.

[0:20:28] Voice 1: review the material originally provided by trustees Falk and Patrick last year regarding

[0:20:35] Voice 1: evaluation of the CAO, work with this committee to develop a policy for the performance evaluation

[0:20:41] Voice 1: of the CAO, and then assist the committee in making a recommendation to Trust Council

[0:20:46] Voice 1: on the adoption of that performance evaluation policy. And there'll be elements, additional

[0:20:51] Voice 1: elements within that framework as well. You know, this is going to be a process where I think

[0:20:57] Voice 1: there's going to be some back and forth uh you know where i will create draft reports and other

[0:21:02] Voice 1: pieces as well that will come to the committee we'll refine things there's going to be a bit

[0:21:06] Voice 1: of a dialogue around it as we move forward through january and february and hopefully wrap up in

[0:21:11] Voice 1: march um and so i went through the initial material that was uh stated um you know regarding

[0:21:19] Voice 1: uh the the pieces by trustees falk and patrick um and had a good look through that and and it's

[0:21:26] Voice 1: obviously you know a very high level piece there were some elements in there regarding uh you know

[0:21:30] Voice 1: kind of a draft timeline uh as to how that would unfold um and i noted in there that there was

[0:21:36] Voice 1: requests for interviews um both with or with several uh parties actually with with trust or

[0:21:43] Voice 1: with this committee with the cao and with the cao's direct reports um and so i wanted to clarify

[0:21:53] Voice 1: if I, you know, obviously, if you still want me to conduct those interviews as part of the

[0:21:57] Voice 1: creation of a report and eventual incorporation into the evaluation policy. And if that's the

[0:22:03] Voice 1: case, we can set some times to do that as well. That would likely take place in January.

[0:22:07] Voice 1: And then from there, I think I would, you know, come up with an initial report based on this

[0:22:13] Voice 1: timeline for your meeting in February. I believe that's February 3rd. And then come back with a

[0:22:19] Voice 1: a refined, comprehensive report that can be presented to Trust Council on behalf of the

[0:22:25] Voice 1: committee, and I would help you through that process to gain final approval, make any final

[0:22:32] Voice 1: changes that might need to be made, and then present a completed performance review

[0:22:37] Voice 1: and put together any lessons that might be learned from it for future year-on-year evaluation and

[0:22:45] Voice 1: evolution of the policy um and i think there's also an element to this there's two elements you

[0:22:52] Voice 1: have what could be described as kind of a permanent you know cao evaluation policy template and then

[0:22:58] Voice 1: you can have annual um performance pieces you know based on what are we looking for this year

[0:23:04] Voice 1: you know and that would obviously be something that would evolve every year you know when you

[0:23:08] Voice 1: do the annual process um you could also build in other pieces like six month check-ins areas like

[0:23:14] Voice 1: that but you know we don't have to get into the nitty-gritty of the language today you know that

[0:23:18] Voice 1: there'll be plenty of time for that as we go through and i'll point out those pieces as i

[0:23:22] Voice 1: generate draft reports over time um and and draft versions of the policy so that's kind of the really

[0:23:29] Voice 1: the high level of where we're at you know really i thought the purpose of this meeting is just to

[0:23:33] Voice 1: you know clarify that that's the case you know get any other pieces from the committee as to how you

[0:23:39] Voice 1: would like me to proceed and other areas that you'd like me to focus on and then you know in

[0:23:44] Voice 1: january i think you know i think those interviews would actually be a really good idea um with the

[0:23:50] Voice 1: various parties in terms of really fleshing out what this could be and it builds on the survey

[0:23:55] Voice 1: that we did originally at the start of the process if you'll recall um that it kind of got feedback

[0:24:02] Voice 1: from the trust council and from staff anonymously regarding what they would like to see in a new cao

[0:24:09] Voice 1: So I think we're going to take that a step further. And now that Ruben's in the role and you have a clear idea of what you need from the CAO in, let's call it 2025, that would be an interesting piece to zero on in and refresh a little bit more through me so that I can then incorporate that into an evaluation policy.

[0:24:28] Voice 1: policy and the other piece as well would be building in as you mentioned share luckham a

[0:24:33] Voice 1: kind of uh probate the uh an evaluation policy for the end of the six month probation period so

[0:24:38] Voice 1: that would be kind of like a one-off uh but you can certainly build that into the policy and then

[0:24:42] Voice 1: from there it would become like more of an annual uh piece that would evolve over time right okay

[0:24:50] Trustee Luckham: so uh questions i see uh trustee patrick well

[0:24:55] Trustee Patrick: thank you nick and i as as one of the authors

[0:24:59] Trustee Patrick: that was behind that document,

[0:25:01] Trustee Patrick: there's nothing in there that we were wedded to.

[0:25:03] Trustee Patrick: I want to be clear.

[0:25:04] Trustee Patrick: That really came out of a period of frustration

[0:25:07] Trustee Patrick: where the review was not happening.

[0:25:10] Trustee Patrick: And the reason for wanting to work with someone like you

[0:25:15] Trustee Patrick: is that the expectations are

[0:25:17] Trustee Patrick: that we're trying to do performance review

[0:25:19] Trustee Patrick: as the standards and guides

[0:25:21] Trustee Patrick: for a position of this nature warrant.

[0:25:24] Trustee Patrick: And there's lots of good material out there

[0:25:28] Trustee Patrick: And just to be standard, the only fun aspect of the Islands Trust is we have this unique position where we have an executive committee that has responsibility for sort of day-to-day roles, but we have the trust counsel who is the employer.

[0:25:42] Trustee Patrick: And it's how to really bring that together with all of the work that's done amongst, how many bodies do we have? 13 plus the Trust Conservancy plus Bowen.

[0:25:59] Trustee Patrick: and through how we get all this information brought in

[0:26:02] Trustee Patrick: so that we are really making a good performance process

[0:26:07] Trustee Patrick: that's solid and really gives the feedback to the CAO

[0:26:11] Trustee Patrick: that they deserve and put them in a position for success.

[0:26:16] Trustee Patrick: I mean, that was really where we were coming from.

[0:26:21] Voice 1: Good, thank you.

[0:26:25] Voice 1: Any other thoughts

[0:26:26] Trustee Luckham: or remarks?

[0:26:31] Trustee Luckham: Judy Getty now.

[0:26:33] Voice 10: I like it.

[0:26:34] Voice 10: And I think that would be very helpful

[0:26:36] Voice 10: in terms of Nick and his expertise

[0:26:39] Voice 10: and going through what we've got

[0:26:41] Voice 10: and where we should think about going.

[0:26:43] Voice 10: And I'm satisfied with that layout.

[0:26:51] Trustee Luckham: Okay.

[0:26:51] Trustee Luckham: So in terms of timing,

[0:26:54] Trustee Luckham: you suggested that you're going to have

[0:26:56] Trustee Luckham: sort of a draft available for us in the new year.

[0:26:59] Trustee Luckham: And I think you were looking at a meeting date there

[0:27:02] Trustee Luckham: in February

[0:27:03] Voice 7: or February.

[0:27:05] Voice 1: Yeah, I think Laurie mentioned

[0:27:06] Voice 1: that you have a meeting on February 3rd.

[0:27:09] Voice 1: Is that right?

[0:27:11] Voice 7: Right.

[0:27:12] Voice 1: So I know you have a meeting in January as well on the 13th.

[0:27:15] Voice 1: I would say it might be a little too soon for me to put a proper draft together by that time.

[0:27:20] Voice 1: If you want me to conduct those interviews, because those interviews are probably going to have to take place in January.

[0:27:26] Voice 1: It might be quite tight to do them that first week back.

[0:27:28] Voice 1: So I'm not sure if I would be able to have something fully ready to go on the 13th.

[0:27:33] Voice 1: But by February 3rd, I think I would have something quite comprehensive based on feedback from those various parties.

[0:27:38] Voice 1: So, I just wanted to confirm that that would be okay in terms of a timeline.

[0:27:46] Trustee Luckham: That sounds reasonable to me. Is anybody objecting to that timeliness? Okay.

[0:27:55] Voice 7: So,

[0:27:56] Voice 1: I would have it to you by the 27th based on that document.

[0:28:00] Trustee Luckham: Right. There we go. Perfect. Thank you. So, that's great. So, you talked about the two

[0:28:09] Trustee Luckham: elements one being the long-term process and i think that's going to unfold as it should

[0:28:14] Trustee Luckham: and just want to endorse that i generally i think we all support um the in not quite a full 360 but

[0:28:24] Trustee Luckham: certainly um conversations with senior staff that are the reports in an anonymous fashion

[0:28:31] Trustee Luckham: to allow that evaluation to be as comprehensive as possible and in and so

[0:28:42] Trustee Luckham: you know one of the things that is obviously executive committee would also

[0:28:47] Trustee Luckham: have the opportunity to provide remarks and continuous feedback with the CEO

[0:28:53] Trustee Luckham: given that the executive committee works more on a day-to-day basis with the CAO

[0:28:58] Trustee Luckham: and the chair on a day-to-day basis with the CEO,

[0:29:01] Trustee Luckham: more so than council on its quarterly rotations.

[0:29:05] Trustee Luckham: But we need to have the opportunities to solicit the feedback

[0:29:10] Trustee Luckham: when and where necessary through the long-term process.

[0:29:17] Trustee Luckham: But some of those elements, and so I'll segue,

[0:29:19] Trustee Luckham: some of those elements need to happen in this probationary period

[0:29:24] Trustee Luckham: is probably the best word to use.

[0:29:26] Trustee Luckham: and although requests to PSA about how that might be best conducted

[0:29:33] Trustee Luckham: with respect to the performance, with respect to objectives,

[0:29:40] Trustee Luckham: and that we would anticipate the CAO to be undertaking,

[0:29:47] Trustee Luckham: the feedback from PSA is that that is not well-structured,

[0:29:54] Trustee Luckham: which is interesting at this executive level, other than saying.

[0:30:00] Trustee Luckham: that a deputy minister, for instance, is constantly in probationary period and being

[0:30:08] Trustee Luckham: reviewed all the time. And so that all needs to fall together in a way that serves our purposes

[0:30:16] Trustee Luckham: now because we need to have criteria to evaluate the CAO against and provide opportunities for

[0:30:23] Trustee Luckham: for learning and correction and understanding

[0:30:25] Trustee Luckham: to evolve over this initial period

[0:30:29] Trustee Luckham: so that there's more clear direction into the future.

[0:30:38] Trustee Luckham: I'm just wondering what, Nick, you think about

[0:30:41] Trustee Luckham: with regards to that, but also wanna know what,

[0:30:44] Trustee Luckham: to try and get some consensus around the direction

[0:30:47] Trustee Luckham: that we're gonna go today from trustees.

[0:30:51] Trustee Luckham: And at some juncture, we will want to move into in-camera if we've had all the conversation that we need to have in the public venue here.

[0:31:00] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Patrick and Trustee Getty.

[0:31:05] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, I mean, there's some challenges.

[0:31:07] Trustee Patrick: And I think just clarity between what's this probation, you know, a probation period performance review versus a permanent policy for moving forward.

[0:31:19] Trustee Patrick: So I think just be clear. And I think there's an expectation, of course, that it's not going to be one of the same. It can't be. The other is I yield caution and is the executive committee, while it does have the day-to-day role to not really truly embed the trust counsel process into even the ongoing review process to some degree, that's where separation starts to occur.

[0:31:48] Trustee Patrick: And I think the idea is to not repeat what we've done for 30 years. This is really about finding a solid process going forward that, you know, when a performance review is given, you've got the confidence that Trust Council stands with it as the employer and that we're all on the same page, swimming in the same direction.

[0:32:07] Trustee Patrick: And I think that would really make a huge difference going forward. So that's what to be careful about.

[0:32:17] Voice 7: Yeah,

[0:32:20] Trustee Luckham: so Judy Getty?

[0:32:22] Voice 10: There's reference there to PSA, and I think that one of the strengths and reasons why we wanted to hire Ruben was that he had that background and experience.

[0:32:33] Voice 10: So whether we get feedback from him today in terms of some of the things we've talked about in process, but certainly for Nick to tease out as much as you can from all of that good experience.

[0:32:46] Voice 10: and that we, you know, I don't know how much we want to spend on it today

[0:32:51] Voice 10: or in this meeting, but I think that that is a resource that we've got now

[0:32:56] Voice 10: that we need to be mindful of.

[0:33:00] Trustee Luckham: Read completely.

[0:33:01] Trustee Luckham: And I do want to provide that opportunity to CAO Broney to make the marks.

[0:33:08] Trustee Luckham: Trustee Elliott, I saw your hand up, but maybe you were just, oh, there you go.

[0:33:12] Voice 3: it's it's i'm not sure it's an important consideration for um the probationary period

[0:33:20] Voice 3: because it is just six months but the opportunity for the cao to provide not just self-evaluation

[0:33:26] Voice 3: and reflection but um what kind of feedback are we looking for on um inter-staff relationships

[0:33:37] Voice 3: Relationships. How are things going? Relationships with the different committees. I think there's valuable information that can be gleaned. You know, essentially, we have this opportunity with somebody coming in from the outside who can provide good feedback on some of our systems and processes.

[0:33:55] Voice 3: processes. So I'd like to see, if possible, if it's appropriate, some sort of feedback mechanism

[0:34:02] Voice 3: from the CAO, and whether, I'm not sure what body that would go to, but just for council

[0:34:10] Voice 3: to understand how we work, perhaps from an outsider's perspective, and how we might improve,

[0:34:19] Voice 3: because we want to build a good relationship with whoever is in that role going forward.

[0:34:24] Voice 3: So, I don't really see that. I'm not sure if the six-month probationary period is appropriate, but the ongoing evaluation, I think there should be a feedback mechanism for whoever is in that role to almost like continual improvement metrics for this organization itself. So, not sure how that could fit.

[0:34:47] Voice 3: Sure.

[0:34:50] Trustee Luckham: So maybe I'll just remark, because indeed, you know, not necessarily everybody on this committee is aware, and it's not covered in any of our orientation, even at the executive committee, which isn't clear.

[0:35:09] Trustee Luckham: And that's why we need this process. And Nick is assisting us with that because we've used what and Ruben will be familiar with it is the PMDP process, which is the performance evaluations done for senior staff, which the CAO does.

[0:35:25] Trustee Luckham: We adopted that. And that was advice from Linda Adams when she was the CAO. And that was the model that was used. However, and it does provide that opportunity for those conversations to exist where that opportunity for feedback from the CAO exists, as well as feedback from the elected body to have that discussion.

[0:35:49] Trustee Luckham: How we move beyond the executive committee to council is definitely one of the elements that we need to provide the opportunity for those conversations to happen.

[0:35:59] Trustee Luckham: Clearly, at every council, we have a staff matters opportunity, and so it strikes me that there needs to be a standing agenda item in camera-restricted sessions where that feedback is solicited and provided.

[0:36:15] Trustee Luckham: and so I think probably Nick understands that and is likely to embrace that but we need I think Toby

[0:36:25] Trustee Luckham: you're right we need to ask the questions and we need to provide the opportunity for the for that

[0:36:30] Trustee Luckham: conversation to happen so if

[0:36:33] Voice 3: I can respond chair I wasn't imagining sort of a live in-person verbal

[0:36:40] Voice 3: verbal conversation. I'm looking at, again, we need structure and documentation for performance

[0:36:47] Voice 3: metrics and feedback on council. And so I would like to see that built in, whether it's a

[0:36:52] Voice 3: confidential process coming to this body, probably to council. I wouldn't imagine a live conversation

[0:37:01] Voice 3: with that sort of information is useful, because how do you capture it? You know, that's all in

[0:37:07] Voice 3: camera discussion there's no minuting there's no documentation so um for this process to work there

[0:37:13] Voice 3: needs to be a continuous documentation built in and different stages and everybody understands

[0:37:19] Voice 3: what that process looks like thanks

[0:37:21] Trustee Luckham: right and so what i was saying there and maybe i wasn't clear

[0:37:25] Trustee Luckham: is that the pmdp process has forms is structured is a record and um and so you're absolutely right

[0:37:35] Trustee Luckham: And we need to be more diligent about that, I would just say that.

[0:37:41] Trustee Luckham: And it may be there's an opportunity here for CAO Broney, from his knowledge and experience

[0:37:47] Trustee Luckham: about within PSA, to talk about that objectively, the high-level view of what is expected and

[0:37:58] Trustee Luckham: recommended from PSA, particularly given, let's say, in a worst-case scenario where

[0:38:04] Trustee Luckham: where things are not going well, we need to provide some course adjustments. And of course,

[0:38:10] Trustee Luckham: in the long run, through the long term process, salary increases that would happen are based upon

[0:38:19] Trustee Luckham: performance. And so those are the elements that we need to be sure that we're covering. Because

[0:38:26] Trustee Luckham: again, following on your suggestions there about record keeping and records, indeed, if we if we

[0:38:34] Trustee Luckham: end up in a situation where we're doing course correction, we need to have records of exactly

[0:38:39] Trustee Luckham: the why, for, and hows. So I can go to trustees or do you want to hear from Ruben at this

[0:38:48] Trustee Luckham: time? We're okay. So Ruben, do you want to weigh in here at all about your understanding

[0:39:00] Trustee Luckham: from an objective perspective about this process

[0:39:05] Trustee Luckham: and what we should anticipate in that relationship with PSA,

[0:39:09] Trustee Luckham: as I've sort of hinted?

[0:39:12] Voice 4: Yeah, I mean, I think generally the key elements

[0:39:16] Voice 4: of any good performance development process are their goals,

[0:39:21] Voice 4: clear expectations, regular conversations,

[0:39:24] Voice 4: and to Trustee Elliott's point,

[0:39:26] Voice 4: documentation is an important part of that as well.

[0:39:28] Voice 4: And those serve the interests both of the employer and their supervisor and the employee, both from a positive perspective, but also from a few, as you've noted, Chair Luckham, if you find yourself in a difficult situation, it's really important and valuable to have had those conversations documented.

[0:39:44] Voice 4: And so I think generally the process that's in place for most staff here is a solid one.

[0:39:52] Voice 4: the trick is ensuring that we're actually following it and using it um in both a positive

[0:39:58] Voice 4: and a negative light in my experience sometimes we only really wade into performance management

[0:40:03] Voice 4: when there's a problem and then we start we better start documenting this and that's not really to

[0:40:09] Voice 4: anybody's benefit because then it starts to be seen by the employee as well this is a bad thing

[0:40:13] Voice 4: as opposed to if you build a positive culture of performance development and this is about setting

[0:40:18] Voice 4: setting goals and expectations so we all have clarity on what's expected, and then recognizing

[0:40:22] Voice 4: where we've done well and where we can improve.

[0:40:25] Voice 4: So I think the general philosophy is pretty well understood and pretty sound, and I think

[0:40:30] Voice 4: the model is there.

[0:40:33] Voice 4: A big part of it is just building a positive culture around it and how you use it constructively,

[0:40:37] Voice 4: and that would apply to my role as much as to anybody else's in the organization.

[0:40:41] Voice 4: Thanks.

[0:40:42] Voice 4: Right.

[0:40:43] Trustee Luckham: Exactly.

[0:40:44] Trustee Luckham: Okay, let's go to Trustee Patrick and Trustee Evans.

[0:40:47] Trustee Patrick: Yeah, again, for the long-term policy, it is about making it work. It wasn't working before. I'm going to be blunt. It wasn't happening. And that has nothing to do about individuals. We're not doing the work. Every executive team is going to have their strengths and weaknesses.

[0:41:08] Trustee Patrick: Last term, we had a retired labor lawyer as an executive who happily stood up and took charge of this type of process. That's not going to happen every term. So we need a policy that survives and it happens without waiting for a personality to jump up and take the reign.

[0:41:29] Trustee Patrick: it it's so important that that needs to be built in into the policy as well as the constant

[0:41:36] Trustee Patrick: evaluation and improvement of the policy so that the process is working continues to work and um

[0:41:43] Trustee Patrick: and you know i think for me it's somewhat we're looking at more modern policies as we go forward

[0:41:49] Trustee Patrick: we don't have to fit the old script we really want to create something that works well and sets

[0:41:55] Trustee Patrick: sets up, like I said, the CAO for success and for that structure to happen, not wait to be

[0:42:01] Trustee Patrick: triggered. It triggers itself and it gets done.

[0:42:07] Voice 7: Well said. Thank you. Trustee Evans.

[0:42:13] Voice 9: Thanks. I have some similar remarks and some different remarks. First off, in the similar

[0:42:20] Voice 9: vein, I'd like to see it built into the policy that the policy remains a living document and

[0:42:24] Voice 9: And once a year, it gets reviewed to make sure that this document remains current with the current labor rules, regulations and best practices.

[0:42:36] Voice 9: Another element that I'd like to see in here somehow, somewhere, is that when these regular conversations occur, that they're not just happening at the executive committee level and the rest of the employer, which is a significant portion of it.

[0:42:53] Voice 9: but we don't get to see it or hear it.

[0:42:55] Voice 9: And I think it's really important

[0:42:57] Voice 9: that the whole of Trust Council

[0:42:59] Voice 9: gets to see, hear, and participate

[0:43:02] Voice 9: in some of these discussions.

[0:43:05] Voice 9: Not all of them.

[0:43:06] Voice 9: That's not always appropriate either.

[0:43:08] Voice 9: So perhaps this body,

[0:43:10] Voice 9: and as I suggested, this body,

[0:43:12] Voice 9: so the chairs of the Standing Committee

[0:43:14] Voice 9: and the Executive Committee

[0:43:16] Voice 9: remain as the body

[0:43:20] Voice 9: that does these conversations.

[0:43:24] Voice 9: on a going forward basis perhaps maybe that'll work maybe that won't um but then once these

[0:43:30] Voice 9: conversations are having the documentations being created that that gets shared in camera to the

[0:43:36] Voice 9: rest of trust councils that trust council as a whole remains up to date with what the conversation

[0:43:42] Voice 9: is where the where the changes are being made what the positive attributes are and so that like we

[0:43:48] Voice 9: We said when it does get time for criticism or constructive feedback, that everyone is aware and that it doesn't come as a surprise to everyone.

[0:44:00] Voice 9: Oh, we've got a major problem and that has to be dealt with because then that's detrimental to the person who's sitting in the CEO role as well.

[0:44:06] Voice 9: That's not fair to our employer.

[0:44:09] Voice 9: So just a couple of additional thoughts in there that I'd like to see filtered in somehow.

[0:44:17] Trustee Luckham: Very good.

[0:44:17] Trustee Luckham: Good. So Nick, I think you've heard a lot here today and that will help influence your work and

[0:44:27] Trustee Luckham: we look forward to bringing that document back. And I don't know that we necessarily need to talk

[0:44:33] Trustee Luckham: more about that at this time, unless there are some specific questions about the timeline and

[0:44:38] Trustee Luckham: the draft deliverables. Otherwise, I think we should consider going in-camera. We have two

[0:44:46] Trustee Luckham: two items to discuss in camera, which is a job profile,

[0:44:50] Trustee Luckham: and then actually just have a conversation with the CAO.

[0:44:55] Trustee Luckham: So what portions of the meeting?

[0:44:58] Trustee Luckham: Do

[0:44:59] Voice 1: you want me to remain for that or am I?

[0:45:01] Trustee Luckham: I think that at this juncture, Nick, we could let you go because, no,

[0:45:07] Trustee Luckham: I think this is between the committee and the CAO for the most part.

[0:45:10] Voice 1: I did have one final question then.

[0:45:13] Voice 1: And I was thinking, because, you know, we mentioned getting feedback from, you know, from this committee, from the CAO, and of course, with the direct reports as well.

[0:45:25] Voice 1: How would you like me to go about that? Because if you want to keep it anonymous, then it's probably easier to set up another survey.

[0:45:35] Voice 1: Like, I think I would absolutely have a one on one conversation with Ruben. Obviously, that makes sense.

[0:45:41] Voice 1: You know, we can set something up in the new year to have a thorough discussion around that.

[0:45:45] Voice 1: But regarding the direct reports, and I don't know if you want to do just this committee or the wider Trust Council, but either way, it might be more straightforward to start, obviously, with this committee and then we'll go to Trust Council later.

[0:45:59] Voice 1: I think that was what was initially kind of laid out and then get, you know, refine things a little later on.

[0:46:05] Voice 1: but does it make sense therefore to set up a survey similar to what we did previously

[0:46:10] Voice 1: but with a different set of questions related specifically to this um and and you know it

[0:46:16] Voice 1: wouldn't i don't think it would be as lengthy um it would probably be a little bit more focused

[0:46:20] Voice 1: you know rather than just a general you know it's not it's not what are we looking for in the in the

[0:46:24] Voice 1: person or in the role it's what are we actually looking for in terms of a uh you know how would

[0:46:28] Voice 1: we like this person to be evaluated what what criteria would we like to put forward essentially

[0:46:32] Voice 1: So what do people think about that?

[0:46:37] Trustee Luckham: Go ahead, Trustee Evans.

[0:46:41] Voice 9: Sorry, I'm putting my hand up for a different question.

[0:46:43] Voice 9: I'd like this one answered, but I'm not answering it.

[0:46:46] Voice 9: Okay.

[0:46:47] Trustee Luckham: So that seems like a reasonable approach in the absence of any other hands.

[0:46:54] Trustee Luckham: And I think that certainly I think what's important here is that there be an understood and repeatable reporting process

[0:47:03] Trustee Luckham: that goes back to council and endorse we need all of this stuff needs to ultimately be endorsed by

[0:47:10] Trustee Luckham: council and certainly recommended by this committee um for council's endorsement um so

[0:47:16] Trustee Luckham: as this advances there should those opportunities need to exist but some sort of a survey to the

[0:47:23] Trustee Luckham: senior staff piece and containing that um to some extent there's two there's two pieces right is

[0:47:32] Trustee Luckham: is how is the CAO operating within the organization?

[0:47:36] Trustee Luckham: And then how is the CAO providing support to counsel and items of trust?

[0:47:43] Trustee Luckham: And so those are obviously two different audiences.

[0:47:48] Trustee Luckham: But the one that was identified was the staff element.

[0:47:55] Trustee Luckham: What historically has happened is the executive committee took on pretty much

[0:48:02] Trustee Luckham: all of the role we did engage chairs of the committees as which

[0:48:07] Trustee Luckham: as they've now assembled

[0:48:09] Trustee Luckham: in the in these two committees the hiring committee and the select committee and i i would

[0:48:14] Trustee Luckham: see that that continue as a formal process and that indeed it is the select committee that is

[0:48:20] Trustee Luckham: involved in all every step of this process um that would you know ultimately happen

[0:48:26] Trustee Luckham: maybe maybe a couple of three meetings four times a year or something like that

[0:48:32] Trustee Luckham: um that would provide those opportunities to um um conduct an evaluation which the annual

[0:48:41] Trustee Luckham: evaluation would be the one that everything would be measured against good

[0:48:46] Voice 1: well yeah in that case

[0:48:47] Voice 1: then in an interest of maintaining documentation and and you know providing that to trust council

[0:48:52] Voice 1: then i think a survey makes sense um i think that's something that could be shared down the

[0:48:56] Voice 1: line so i will certainly set that up and we'll we'll coordinate with david and laurie to figure

[0:49:01] Voice 1: that out and have it sent out to the appropriate people including yourselves and then i can arrange

[0:49:06] Voice 1: a time to chat with reuben and of course if any of trust council would rather speak to me

[0:49:11] Voice 1: uh directly or any of this committee then of course i'd be happy to do that in the new year as

[0:49:16] Voice 1: well um so i'll certainly attach that sort of open invite as well but i think it's easier to get the

[0:49:22] Voice 1: bulk of the feedback through the survey and i can get any additional pieces through additional

[0:49:26] Voice 1: conversations if necessary yeah

[0:49:28] Trustee Luckham: um just reflecting on what you said there i think that the conversation

[0:49:33] Trustee Luckham: should happen with this committee as a body and with the cao as an individual um i'm not sure how

[0:49:41] Trustee Luckham: we would manage individual conversations with members of the committee no

[0:49:45] Voice 1: no yeah as a body

[0:49:46] Voice 1: with the committee would certainly be a lot easier so

[0:49:49] Trustee Luckham: let's just uh let's see seek endorsement for

[0:49:52] Trustee Luckham: Nick, proceeding as discussed.

[0:49:57] Trustee Luckham: There's

[0:49:57] Voice 7: four hands up.

[0:49:58] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, I'm going to get to the four hands up.

[0:50:01] Trustee Luckham: So I'm just trying to summarize here so that we can move along.

[0:50:04] Trustee Luckham: So let's seek some endorsement and any additional comments necessary to help Nick along his way.

[0:50:11] Trustee Luckham: So Trustee Evans, Elliott, Getty, and Boland.

[0:50:15] Voice 9: Yeah, I certainly endorse moving along.

[0:50:18] Voice 9: long so um sorry nick did you did you did you offer to remain online for the next portion of

[0:50:27] Voice 9: the meeting did i get that correct i'm

[0:50:29] Voice 1: not sure if i'm needed that was my

[0:50:32] Voice 1: question yeah um what i

[0:50:34] Voice 9: was going to ask the chair because he said for you to leave i would like to say something opposite

[0:50:38] Voice 9: i think that you might have some good insight into the general discussion that we're going to

[0:50:43] Voice 9: to be having. And I'd like to pose the question, if we have an expert in this area, who's offering

[0:50:50] Voice 9: to remain and perhaps offer some guidance, would it not be prudent at this juncture to allow him

[0:50:57] Voice 9: to remain and help us at this early stage of the conversation?

[0:51:01] Voice 7: I don't, I would, I don't disagree

[0:51:04] Trustee Luckham: with that. Sure. That's the wishes of the committee. So let's get a consensus on that.

[0:51:09] Trustee Luckham: trustee Elliott thank

[0:51:12] Voice 3: you so I just wanted some clarification Nick as you

[0:51:16] Voice 3: were talking I thought I heard two sets of input that you're looking for and I'm

[0:51:27] Voice 3: just not clear on what which we're looking for input on from Council so

[0:51:31] Voice 3: performance evaluation policy are are we looking to go to council to say here is

[0:51:38] Voice 3: Give us your ideas on what are the metrics or process of evaluating that the CAO should be, or is it Trust Council's assessment of the extent to which the CAO is fulfilling the responsibilities of the position?

[0:52:00] Voice 3: to my understanding this committee is struck to and given the the mandate from council

[0:52:09] Voice 3: to develop this policy project and i wouldn't think that we need to go to each

[0:52:16] Voice 3: you know each of the other trustees on council to say to develop that policy no no i i agree

[0:52:23] Voice 3: So

[0:52:23] Voice 1: it's my poor wording. I meant the committee. So yes, really the purpose of this survey and this feedback would be to get the committee's view on how to develop the policy, essentially. I think that was the first point you said, and that's the one

[0:52:40] Voice 1: I think we're aiming at.

[0:52:41] Voice 3: We're not at the stage yet of getting feedback on CAO performance. We are just developing

[0:52:46] Voice 1: the

[0:52:48] Voice 3: policy framework with this committee. Okay, thank you.

[0:52:51] Voice 3: you.

[0:52:53] Trustee Luckham: Thank you. Trustee Getty.

[0:52:56] Voice 10: So remind me, I'm all in favor of surveys, because I think it's a

[0:53:00] Voice 10: really good, efficient use of time. But my recollection is that you've got high levels

[0:53:06] Voice 10: of responses and fulsome answers so that they're fairly reliable. Would that be fair in terms of

[0:53:12] Voice 10: my recollection?

[0:53:13] Voice 1: Yes, I had another look at the survey this morning. And we also created a key

[0:53:17] Voice 1: theme document from that um but the survey itself was had a good response uh for the initial and

[0:53:23] Voice 1: this one and that survey was slightly different because i think that was open to the entire staff

[0:53:28] Voice 1: and entire trust council whereas this one is going to be a little bit more focused

[0:53:32] Voice 1: um so i think this one will be just the committee all

[0:53:37] Voice 10: right i'm just thinking with our timeline

[0:53:39] Voice 10: it's going to be hard to do one-on-one interviews with a whole huge people

[0:53:43] Voice 1: so if the survey is

[0:53:45] Voice 1: reliable than that yeah and then I'll have a one-on-one with Ruben

[0:53:48] Trustee Luckham: thanks so for clarity I

[0:53:50] Trustee Luckham: don't think that was open to all staff it was just the senior reports I think and it may have been

[0:53:56] Trustee Luckham: there were a few others because of their role sure water leadership role but trustee Getty

[0:54:04] Trustee Luckham: and then Boland oh you've already spoke trustee Boland

[0:54:12] Voice 5: thanks um I'm new to this committee um

[0:54:16] Voice 5: Just in terms of the discussion, I think it would be very helpful as part of the final deliverable, which I see as a kind of a general, you know, it's like, how do we provide feedback?

[0:54:33] Voice 5: What are the options open to any person to open a discussion about behavior or performance of somebody else?

[0:54:43] Voice 5: But it would be really helpful to have, I think, a picture, a diagram of the relationships, because it is quite complicated.

[0:54:53] Voice 5: I'm listening to the discussion and it's the, you know, the CAO versus the staff and feedback on, you know, trustees.

[0:55:01] Voice 5: So a diagram would be really helpful on the different interfaces and what the options are with respect to those interfaces.

[0:55:10] Voice 5: Just a suggestion. Thank you.

[0:55:12] Voice 5: you

[0:55:15] Trustee Luckham: yeah nick some of that material exists already within the organization or within the work of the

[0:55:22] Trustee Luckham: hiring committee and yourselves in the process of hiring would that be correct that you can draw

[0:55:28] Trustee Luckham: that in somehow yeah

[0:55:30] Voice 1: when you say a diagram trustee boland do you mean like an org chart

[0:55:33] Voice 1: like a relationship piece like what what exactly do you mean yes

[0:55:37] Voice 5: but but the the context or the

[0:55:40] Voice 5: the lens to use a flavor of the month word would be the issue of performance evaluation feedback

[0:55:47] Voice 5: that's sort of you know what depending on who you are and which person you're providing feedback on

[0:55:57] Voice 5: what the route is or what the um the mechanism is or even you know how frequently it will happen

[0:56:05] Voice 5: so some sort of pictorial guide that says here's the roadmap of how that happens and these then

[0:56:13] Voice 5: you go to the procedures and the manuals etc etc does that make sense or am i am i just i think so

[0:56:22] Voice 1: that that will certainly be laid out in the policy um and you're not talking about our immediate

[0:56:27] Voice 1: feedback now right you're talking about the actual feedback yes the annual policy yeah okay yeah the

[0:56:33] Voice 5: the actual, how does it all work?

[0:56:35] Voice 5: I think some kind of roadmap pictorial version of it

[0:56:39] Voice 5: would be really helpful.

[0:56:42] Voice 1: Excellent.

[0:56:42] Voice 1: Yeah, I'll certainly make sure that that's clear

[0:56:44] Voice 1: and then put that, try to incorporate that

[0:56:47] Voice 1: into the actual policy.

[0:56:48] Voice 5: And when

[0:56:48] Voice 1: I come back with a draft,

[0:56:50] Voice 1: we can discuss how to, you know, refine that a little bit.

[0:56:53] Voice 5: Sure.

[0:56:53] Voice 5: Thank you.

[0:56:54] Voice 1: Thank you.

[0:56:55] Trustee Luckham: Yeah, I'm glad you raised that

[0:56:57] Trustee Luckham: because it's important that everybody know

[0:56:59] Trustee Luckham: where they fit in and where the opportunities are

[0:57:02] Trustee Luckham: for improvement.

[0:57:04] Trustee Luckham: facilitating these conversations that's great so um i didn't hear anything uh contrary so nick if

[0:57:09] Trustee Luckham: you can stick with us when we go into the in-camera session and um if there's no objections

[0:57:14] Trustee Luckham: if we're ready to go in camera i would uh ask for a motion somebody it's on the cover page

[0:57:24] Trustee Luckham: trustee peterson go ahead i

[0:57:28] Voice 6: move that the chief administrative officer hiring select committee

[0:57:32] Voice 6: close this meeting to the public subject to sections 91 a and j of the community charter

[0:57:38] Voice 6: in order to consider matters related to personal information

[0:57:41] Voice 6: about an identifiable individual who holds

[0:57:44] Voice 6: or is being considered for a position as an officer,

[0:57:47] Voice 6: employee, or agent of the Islands Trust

[0:57:49] Voice 6: and staff be invited to remain at the meeting.

[0:57:53] Trustee Luckham: Right, and before that, seconded just for clarity

[0:57:55] Trustee Luckham: that my expectation would be is if we decide once we're in camera

[0:58:00] Trustee Luckham: that we need restricted in camera, we would do that at that time.

[0:58:04] Trustee Luckham: And so just wanted you to know that that door, that window is open. So let's proceed in that.

[0:58:12] Trustee Luckham: So can I get a seconder for the motion? Trustee Evans, thank you. And so I'll just call for the

[0:58:17] Trustee Luckham: vote. All those in favor, please raise your hands electronically or digitally. And please

[0:58:25] Trustee Luckham: lower your hands. Are there any opposed? Oops. There are none opposed to that carry. So we're

[0:58:34] Trustee Luckham: to move in camera so uh certainly we'll stop the recording and um and the live streaming

[0:58:42] Trustee Luckham: and lori you let me know when you're ready okay thank you everybody for uh waiting for us to

[0:59:01] Trustee Luckham: return from um in camera session um uh don't have anything of significance to ryzen report but we'll

[0:59:08] Trustee Luckham: say that we adopted the minutes of the previous uh meeting we uh continuing to review the job

[0:59:15] Trustee Luckham: description work and had a conversation with the CAO about how things are going

[0:59:22] Trustee Luckham: after four weeks of being in our employee and I'd say it's going well so

[0:59:28] Trustee Luckham: let us continue with that so on our next public on our next meeting Lori I'll

[0:59:35] Trustee Luckham: just note because you weren't in attendance in the restricted in camera

[0:59:38] Trustee Luckham: and recession. We would like the six months, three months and six months lists of evaluations

[0:59:48] Trustee Luckham: to return to us to our next meeting. We will also, as you know, be expecting, no, maybe

[0:59:54] Trustee Luckham: you don't know, we would also be expecting further iteration of the

[1:00:00] Trustee Luckham: Job description, which is being undertaken ostensibly by Trustee Evans and Trustee Getty and working with yourself and David Marla to create the document to return to us to our next meeting.

[1:00:13] Trustee Luckham: So those are two things, just for the record. And otherwise, our meeting is concluded today,

[1:00:21] Trustee Luckham: just going to pull up the main agenda here. Our next meeting is scheduled for, oh, sorry, minutes

[1:00:30] Trustee Luckham: of the previous meeting here, first of all, from the open meeting and remember the November 21st

[1:00:36] Trustee Luckham: draft minutes on page 11 of your agenda. Are they satisfactory to everybody? Thank you, Lori.

[1:00:44] Trustee Luckham: Laurie. And so if the, oh, Trustee Peterson, the minutes.

[1:00:52] Voice 6: Minor typo at the head of the minutes.

[1:00:57] Voice 6: And the members present, Laura Patrick, regional planning committee.

[1:01:05] Voice 6: I saw

[1:01:06] Trustee Luckham: that just as you mentioned.

[1:01:08] Trustee Luckham: That's great. And if any of these come up in advance of the meeting,

[1:01:11] Trustee Luckham: a message across to the members responsible, Laurie,

[1:01:15] Trustee Luckham: you like i'm trying to say this at any time so that's great tim thank you so let us then adopt

[1:01:22] Trustee Luckham: the minutes of uh november the 21st um by general consent as amended and that concludes that bit of

[1:01:31] Trustee Luckham: business so our next uh meeting electronic is january 13th at 9 a.m and um we'll um continue

[1:01:39] Trustee Luckham: this conversation so thanks to everybody for being here and all the great work that you've done

[1:01:45] Trustee Luckham: and are doing and look forward to seeing you um next year maybe or post christmas i think tomorrow

[1:01:53] Trustee Luckham: there's a quiet day in my world so hopefully it's quiet in everybody's world and um thank you

[1:01:59] Trustee Luckham: call the meeting for adjournment all those in favor that carries okay let us um go on with

[1:02:08] Trustee Luckham: Those are our days. Enjoy your lunch.

[1:02:10] Voice 3: Take care, everyone.

[1:02:11] Trustee Luckham: Thank you, Lori.